Kelei Routines/Advice

[Effrum]

There's nothing wrong with a powerlifting bench (retracted scapula and a slightly arched back) - it's not like it's unsafe. As long as your butt isn't leaving the bench, I wouldn't be concerned. Do whatever style feels most comfortable and easiest on the shoulders (for me, that's a PL style).

Yeah, I didn't mean to say that it was horrible to do it that way, I just meant that it's not the same as bodybuilding form, which is what I'm going for. So I was curious where to draw the line and say "your back is leaving the bench too much".

[Dizzy01]

are we able to substitute reverse Flye for a high row with elbows flared? I just tried these and feel it much more in my upper back and the extra bicep work is also nice.

[samealadel7]

Thanks

[nerynery]

I'll be away for 3 months, and will just have an adjustable bench, 5'9 10kg (22lbs) bar, adjustable DBs and 100kg (220 lbs) in weights (training alone).

I guess it's no problem for most exercises (except Squats / Leg Curl, will have to find a way to counter that, dunno if my wrists will be happy by DB Squatting with 2x100lbs DBs). I do 10x220 for Bench but I'll have to switch to DBs for this time. RDL I do more than 220, but that's all I have in weight, so I'll just have to add reps.

Do you guys think there will be any difference in 3 months in terms of hypertrophy and strenght by doing DB Bench Press instead of BB?
I guess the only differences are that it's easier to progressively overload with a barbell than a dumbbell and that DBs use less tricep but more pec (bigger ROM)?

Thanks.

[iMangles]

Kelei has said before that he feels conventional DL is over-rated for body building purposes. There's too much quad emphasis which, paired with squats, means your quads will be much stronger than your hamstrings (this COULD lead to issues with your knee because one muscle is pulling on your joint/tendons much harder - similar to how having over-developed front delts can cause shoulder issues). Basically, doing front squat + RDL is a way to balance out quad + hamstring work by having exercises that focus primarily on each muscle to build a balanced/aesthetic physique. This routine isn't designed around having the highest/strongest lifts, it's designed around building a physique.

All that being said, if you still just really want to do DL's, go for it. I just personally wouldn't bother with them.

As far as rows, chest supported rows are the best alternative, but basically you want to do anything that lets you do a bi-lateral row with your elbows tucked close to your body, and where you can squeeze your shoulder blades together at the top of the movement.

Great thanks for the response. I think I'll give up the ego and stick to the plan as designed. To be honest I've been doing back squats instead of front as I had trouble with form and couldn't go as heavy. I just got my 10 rep over 100kg there so didn't want to give it up after working so long to get there, but I'm just not getting as much quad burn as I think I should. Rather than start adding exercises in I will drop the weight and try and get these front squats down and work my way back up.


Also for those discussing straps. I just use them on any heavy lift that gets affected by grip. I want to work the muscle I'm targeting, not my grip strength. I have naturally thin forearms/wrists so grip strength becomes a limiting factor. I work on that issue separately. Static holds definitely help.
Pavel Tsatsouline recommends using a series of good quality grippers. Perform reps half way to failure only, but perform them throughout the day. Minimum 15-30mins rest between sets, as many times as you can each day.

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

I'll be away for 3 months, and will just have an adjustable bench, 5'9 10kg (22lbs) bar, adjustable DBs and 100kg (220 lbs) in weights (training alone).

I guess it's no problem for most exercises (except Squats / Leg Curl, will have to find a way to counter that, dunno if my wrists will be happy by DB Squatting with 2x100lbs DBs). I do 10x220 for Bench but I'll have to switch to DBs for this time. RDL I do more than 220, but that's all I have in weight, so I'll just have to add reps.

Do you guys think there will be any difference in 3 months in terms of hypertrophy and strenght by doing DB Bench Press instead of BB?
I guess the only differences are that it's easier to progressively overload with a barbell than a dumbbell and that DBs use less tricep but more pec (bigger ROM)?

Thanks.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think 3 months is that long of time. You have to work with what you have and doing a dumbbell chest exercise is better than no chest exercise.

[dojsygo]

are we able to substitute reverse Flye for a high row with elbows flared? I just tried these and feel it much more in my upper back and the extra bicep work is also nice.

rear delt row, face-pulls is good substitute for reverse flyes.

How are you preforming your reverse flyes? many people keep doing them to heavy and swinging the weight up. it should be controlled going both up and down imo

[64509chvl]

Had my shoulder surgery today...Labral tear. Going to be long one, lol!

[fLowww94]

I have some questions ,if somebody might help me i would rly appreciate.

1.On the 4th week , deload week , i am supposed to do only the first set of each exercise ?
2.Right now i find myself at 13-14%bf and i want to recomp. I must eat at maintenence ,right?

[64509chvl]

I have some questions ,if somebody might help me i would rly appreciate.

1.On the 4th week , deload week , i am supposed to do only the first set of each exercise ?
2.Right now i find myself at 13-14%bf and i want to recomp. I must eat at maintenence ,right?

Yes & yes

[1fatoldman]

Had my shoulder surgery today...Labral tear. Going to be long one, lol!

I hope your surgery was successful and the rehab is quick.

[64509chvl]

I hope your surgery was successful and the rehab is quick.

Thanks George! So far so good...I feel much better after this one than I did after my right one 15 years ago

[69cam]

Had my shoulder surgery today...Labral tear. Going to be long one, lol!

How long you going to be out of commision?

[64509chvl]

How long you going to be out of commision?

We'll see, but they're keeping me off work for 6 months (heavy equipment operator).

6 weeks in sling...no movement. Then begin with rehab with the assisted pulley & other various exercises. Start using machines strictly for stretching ect...gradually proceeding with strength training.

As far as training goes (real training), maybe a year...have to see. I'll honestly just prolly try & stay with moderate weights in the future though. No need to destroy myself, lol

[dojsygo]

Have anyone tried ''armblaster / ISOpower''? Is it good? Thinking about buying one for my home gym.

[Alyion]

Just opinion, but my old gym had an arm blaster - never liked it tbh, felt awkward and you could still cheat fine with one (meaning you had to go light and focus on form rather than it forcing you into it like on a machine or preacher bench) so just being mindful of keeping strict with standard bb curls was just as good.

Still if its dirt cheap it can always be another option - but i would just do standard curls, or preacher/spider curls.

[Wilzoh]

nicepost

[Thms]

what would be the best way to approach fatloss on this routine? i am currently 12 procent bf and want to go to 8% in 12 weeks time for a photo shoot. Can i eat below maintnance or is 12 weeks enough time to recomp to 8% bf?

also should i lower the reps?

[EmperorRyker]

what would be the best way to approach fatloss on this routine? i am currently 12 procent bf and want to go to 8% in 12 weeks time for a photo shoot. Can i eat below maintnance or is 12 weeks enough time to recomp to 8% bf?

No way do you recomp from 12% to 8% in 12 weeks time. Hell, even given an unlimited amount of time that would probably be wishful thinking. You'll need to cut.

also should i lower the reps?

When cutting, it's often recommended to cut volume a bit, but I'm not sure whether you need to or not. You could start out with the usual rep count, and then once your first deload comes up, assess whether you can work with that.

[Effrum]

what would be the best way to approach fatloss on this routine? i am currently 12 procent bf and want to go to 8% in 12 weeks time for a photo shoot. Can i eat below maintnance or is 12 weeks enough time to recomp to 8% bf?

also should i lower the reps?

I would agree that you wouldn't be able to recomp to 8% in 12 weeks.

As far as lowering the reps - do as many as you feel you have energy for. When you cut out carbs (or just don't get enough carbs period) you simply don't have the energy to do as many reps. I'm only doing 20 reps per exercise right now because I'm cutting. If I try for more, I'm ok for the first few exercises, but I feel terrible by the middle/end and I really struggle to make it past 20.

[iMangles]

I'm cutting and volume is definitely an issue. I find a weekend re-feed really helps though weight loss progress does get slowed, but I'm still pushing through to 50 reps on most lifts (20-25 on Squats/RDL). It gets progressively more difficult throughout the week then bumps back up with the extra calories at the end.
Working down from 12.5%, aiming for below 10%. About half way there now I'm guessing. Will get a dexa scan at my goal weight to confirm.



Any tips for weak point training anyone? If I have lagging muscle size, is the answer just to increase volume on that bodypart above all others?

My rear delts are smaller than my front by a considerable degree. Am on Upper/Lower 4-5x per week.
Upper split is Bench Press, DB Rows, Reverse DB Fly, Flat DB Fly, V-Bar pushdown, BB Curl, Side Laterals.

Currently hitting 50 reps for all exercises.

Should I just try to increase Reverse DB Fly volume further?

Am still on a cut, but aiming to be done with that in 2-3 weeks.

[Thms]

How big should my refeed be? I am cutting on 2700 calories with 200 carb 170 protein 135 fat.

Also, is from 12 to 8 procent bf in 12 Weeks an attainable goal or would muscle löss become an issue?

Ill start on 20 reps per excersize and see how it works out

[EmperorRyker]

How big should my refeed be? I am cutting on 2700 calories with 200 carb 170 protein 135 fat.

You can keep it at 2700 kcal.

Also, is from 12 to 8 procent bf in 12 Weeks an attainable goal or would muscle löss become an issue?

How much weight would you be dropping? Percentages are relative amounts. It's definitely possible, though, just perhaps not something you can bet on.

[ThatOneLurker]

I'm cutting and volume is definitely an issue. I find a weekend re-feed really helps though weight loss progress does get slowed, but I'm still pushing through to 50 reps on most lifts (20-25 on Squats/RDL). It gets progressively more difficult throughout the week then bumps back up with the extra calories at the end.
Working down from 12.5%, aiming for below 10%. About half way there now I'm guessing. Will get a dexa scan at my goal weight to confirm.



Any tips for weak point training anyone? If I have lagging muscle size, is the answer just to increase volume on that bodypart above all others?

My rear delts are smaller than my front by a considerable degree. Am on Upper/Lower 4-5x per week.
Upper split is Bench Press, DB Rows, Reverse DB Fly, Flat DB Fly, V-Bar pushdown, BB Curl, Side Laterals.

Currently hitting 50 reps for all exercises.

Should I just try to increase Reverse DB Fly volume further?

Am still on a cut, but aiming to be done with that in 2-3 weeks.

Add rear delt flyes to your split then.

[iMangles]

Add rear delt flyes to your split then.

I've been doing the exrx exercise - Dumbbell Rear Lateral Raise, are you saying rear delt flyes is a different exercise?

[ThatOneLurker]

I've been doing the exrx exercise - Dumbbell Rear Lateral Raise, are you saying rear delt flyes is a different exercise?

You said you were doing reverse DB fly (which is different from a rear delt fly) and DB rows.

Keep your DB rows, do the "dumbbell rear lateral raise" on a bench with a slight incline (15 degrees), and do reverse flyes on a flat bench.

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

Okay this is way overthinking, which I know, but I'm interested in opinions.

Wouldn't it be better to count total sets instead of total reps?

Example, right now I'm doing 50 total reps. I really try to hit 5 reps each set after the first set of 10. So my lifts end up looking something like: 10, 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 = 10 sets we'll say on average since sometimes it does vary.

Which ones are "money reps"? Lets say the very last rep is. I have 10 money reps.

What if I start counting sets and up my sets to 12 sets and rest less? Say it looks more like:

10, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2 = 44 total reps

In each example, it took me the same amount of time for argument's sake. Total reps was down 6 reps, but I got 2 more "money reps."

Which, in your guy's opinion, is better? The extra couple of money rep's I got, or the extra 6 reps I got with 2 less money reps? Overthinking, I know, just been on my mind for a while and wondered some opinions.

[Dizzy01]

Okay this is way overthinking, which I know, but I'm interested in opinions.

Wouldn't it be better to count total sets instead of total reps?

Example, right now I'm doing 50 total reps. I really try to hit 5 reps each set after the first set of 10. So my lifts end up looking something like: 10, 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 = 10 sets we'll say on average since sometimes it does vary.

Which ones are "money reps"? Lets say the very last rep is. I have 10 money reps.

What if I start counting sets and up my sets to 12 sets and rest less? Say it looks more like:

10, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2 = 44 total reps

In each example, it took me the same amount of time for argument's sake. Total reps was down 6 reps, but I got 2 more "money reps."

Which, in your guy's opinion, is better? The extra couple of money rep's I got, or the extra 6 reps I got with 2 less money reps? Overthinking, I know, just been on my mind for a while and wondered some opinions.

Personally I count sets, I do my first set of 8-12 then 10 rest pause sets getting 4-5 reps per set. I should add in that I do this routine with a training partner so my rest times are probably a little longer on some exercises.

[Effrum]

Okay this is way overthinking, which I know, but I'm interested in opinions.

Wouldn't it be better to count total sets instead of total reps?

Example, right now I'm doing 50 total reps. I really try to hit 5 reps each set after the first set of 10. So my lifts end up looking something like: 10, 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 = 10 sets we'll say on average since sometimes it does vary.

Which ones are "money reps"? Lets say the very last rep is. I have 10 money reps.

What if I start counting sets and up my sets to 12 sets and rest less? Say it looks more like:

10, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2 = 44 total reps

In each example, it took me the same amount of time for argument's sake. Total reps was down 6 reps, but I got 2 more "money reps."

Which, in your guy's opinion, is better? The extra couple of money rep's I got, or the extra 6 reps I got with 2 less money reps? Overthinking, I know, just been on my mind for a while and wondered some opinions.

The ideal in this situation would be to just rest less and keep the original rep target. So, you'd shoot for 3 reps per set and not 4-5. You're looking at more money reps + the same volume = win/win. I think arbitrarily lowering total volume to meet a "total set" count is a step in the wrong direction.

As far as which reps are money reps, the general estimate Kelei's been using since his original thread was the last 3 reps of a set. So -

10, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3 = 50 total reps = 42 money reps
10, 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 = 50 total reps = 30 money reps
10, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2 = 44 total reps = 36 money reps

To be honest I'm not 100% sure if only getting 2 reps per set would have any effect on the "quality" of the rep. I imagine not, but it would take longer to pump out 50 total reps at 2 reps a set. Resting for 3 reps seems to be the ideal in terms of time/effectiveness.

[Negligence]

Which, in your guy's opinion, is better? The extra couple of money rep's I got, or the extra 6 reps I got with 2 less money reps? Overthinking, I know, just been on my mind for a while and wondered some opinions.

I think you are under-estimating what are effective reps.

In your first 10 rep set, the last ~3 reps would be considered effective. Every rep afterwards will be effective reps (assuming minimal rest time to keep fatigue high), regardless if you are working in groups of 3 or 5 reps after the initial set. So in a 30 rep lift, you would have 23 effective reps total.