Kelei Routines/Advice

[davo26]

So, I don't know how long I've been doing this... I think it's been at least 2 months and I've gained a crap ton of strength. Absolutely insane amount which sounds good but I'm also putting on fat. I've gained 10 lbs. in 2 months without changing 1 thing to my diet.

Now, the only thing I can possibly come to a conclusion on is that I am overtraining, causing a stress hormone response that is making my body produce more cortisol and holding fat at the butt, stomach and chest.

I've searched down every other avenue and this is the only possible conclusion I can come to. I'm doing 40 reps with the advanced split. I started off with the advanced split but doing 30 reps. Looking for some serious advice here.

I'm going to shoot down the first obvious response of "muscle weighs more than fat." I'm fatter than I was, there's no question about it.

im not clever enough to understand the proper reasons behind it, so id just look at it simplistically. youve gained 10lbs of weight so you need to eat less if youre not happy about that. spose it doesnt matter why thats happened, it just has. and whilst it would have been good for that to have been 10lbs of solid muscle, we all know that unfortunately with a bulk comes fat. so once youre not happy with the amount of fat gained, youll need to decide whether a cut is in order.

good news about your strength going up tho, theres bound to be a fair bit of gained muscle within that 10lbs.

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

Yeah, I've tried to look at it that way, too. The problem is my metabolism should be raised from working out with the 1 minute rests and also the amount of calories burned (I'm doing twice as many reps as I was 2 months ago in the gym each and every day). It's basically HIIT but with weights. So, factoring that into the equation and keeping calories the same (2800), there is no reason for me to be gaining weight.

The only way I can look at it where it would make sense is stress. There is little stress at home so it has to be excess stress in the gym?

Maybe I increased from 30 to 40 reps too fast and the stress is somewhat over-training?? I don't know. Just talking out possibilities..

I guess I can always try to go back down to 30 for a while and see how that works out.

[64509chvl]

Yeah, I've tried to look at it that way, too. The problem is my metabolism should be raised from working out with the 1 minute rests and also the amount of calories burned (I'm doing twice as many reps as I was 2 months ago in the gym each and every day). It's basically HIIT but with weights. So, factoring that into the equation and keeping calories the same (2800), there is no reason for me to be gaining weight.

The only way I can look at it where it would make sense is stress. There is little stress at home so it has to be excess stress in the gym?

Maybe I increased from 30 to 40 reps too fast and the stress is somewhat over-training?? I don't know. Just talking out possibilities..

I guess I can always try to go back down to 30 for a while and see how that works out.

I doesn't make much sense at all...could be an underlying problem causing it but the only thing you can really do that does make sense is lowering the cals a bit. I know you said you're at the same cals as you were but you also say the strength gain is insane, but with added fat. Obviously that's the result you get when bulking. Why you're getting these results with the same cals as before...who knows?! Don't want to steer you in the wrong direction. Only logical thing to me is to drop the cals some.
Welcome to my world...minus the insane strength gains, lol!

[Effrum]

Yeah, I've tried to look at it that way, too. The problem is my metabolism should be raised from working out with the 1 minute rests and also the amount of calories burned (I'm doing twice as many reps as I was 2 months ago in the gym each and every day). It's basically HIIT but with weights. So, factoring that into the equation and keeping calories the same (2800), there is no reason for me to be gaining weight.

The only way I can look at it where it would make sense is stress. There is little stress at home so it has to be excess stress in the gym?

Maybe I increased from 30 to 40 reps too fast and the stress is somewhat over-training?? I don't know. Just talking out possibilities..

I guess I can always try to go back down to 30 for a while and see how that works out.

If this is your first time doing a routine like this, it's very possible that 2-3 lbs of what you've gained are from increased glycogen storage in your muscles (which will make you appear larger/fuller) as opposed to actual lean mass or fat. Assuming that, you've maybe gained 7-8 lbs of actual mass in 2 months, which isn't too bad. Either way, like chvl and davo have said, if you feel you're gaining too much at once, then the only option is to lower your calories. I can empathize with wanting to understand what's going on and why your body doesn't seem to be reacting the way you expected, but if anything is gonna stress you out, it's stressing about stress . -insert yo dawg meme pic here-

Just my .02.

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

If this is your first time doing a routine like this, it's very possible that 2-3 lbs of what you've gained are from increased glycogen storage in your muscles (which will make you appear larger/fuller) as opposed to actual lean mass or fat. Assuming that, you've maybe gained 7-8 lbs of actual mass in 2 months, which isn't too bad. Either way, like chvl and davo have said, if you feel you're gaining too much at once, then the only option is to lower your calories. I can empathize with wanting to understand what's going on and why your body doesn't seem to be reacting the way you expected, but if anything is gonna stress you out, it's stressing about stress . -insert yo dawg meme pic here-

Just my .02.

Interesting. Yeah, it's my first routine like this. The only others I've done were all about hitting around 6-12 reps for a certain # of sets (usually 3-4) with 2-3 minute rests between. Now I'm getting 6 to 7 sets in and resting max. 1 min. between sets with the same amount of total exercises AND hitting every body part twice per week instead of one = a **** ton more volume.

[Effrum]

Interesting. Yeah, it's my first routine like this. The only others I've done were all about hitting around 6-12 reps for a certain # of sets (usually 3-4) with 2-3 minute rests between. Now I'm getting 6 to 7 sets in and resting max. 1 min. between sets with the same amount of total exercises AND hitting every body part twice per week instead of one = a **** ton more volume.

Yeah, one of the things Kelei pointed out in his original thread was that higher volume encourages your muscles to store more glycogen in their tissues (because you're expending so much more when you work out). I've noticed it myself, if I go on vacation or something and don't do any exercising for a few days to a week, I'll actually LOSE a few lbs because my muscles aren't holding as much glycogen anymore. Then after about 2-3 days in the gym I gain it back again.

[nerynery]

Found a way of doing Reverse Flyes parallel to the ground with 20lbs dumbells. Anyone else doing like this?

[Morti]

tried to get my 10 reps max for upper day. Felt like i didnt do some of the excercises correct
bench 90 kg
incline flyes 35kg
incline reverse flyes 15kg
tricep pushdowns 20kg
curls 30kg
cable side lateral raises 6kg
seated rows 60kg
1. How much would you think i could work with on incline flyes compared to my bench? reason i am asking is that i didnt feel like it did it correct, maybe cause i used to heavy weight to figure my 10 rep max(used 2x16kgs).
2. I tried both v bar and rope for tricep press downs, but couldnt really tell the difference. are there any benefits using ropes vs v bar

[ThatOneLurker]

If anyone was wondering about that vitamin D3 controversy on whether or not you need sunlight to synthesize vs. taking a supplement:

The kidney processes Vitamin D3 to the active form, Calcitriol. Vitamin D3 activation occurs in our kidney. 25-Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) is made in our skin, by exposure to UV light. We can also obtain this in our diet. This form of vitamin D is inactive, and non functional. This is 25-vitamin D because there is a hydroxyl group that’s been added to the 25th carbon by a hydroxylase (hydroxylated by the kidney)

PTH (parathyroid hormone), via the kidney, turns on alpha-25-hydroxylase. The enzyme hydroxylase adds a hydroxyl group to the 25th carbon, converting it to 1,25-vit-D3. This is the active form, known as Calcitriol. Hydroxylation takes place in the kidney.


A supplement is just as effective as sunlight.

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

Found a way of doing Reverse Flyes parallel to the ground with 20lbs dumbells. Anyone else doing like this?

No, but I certainly would if my gym had something like that to raise the bench. I put the bench on a slight incline and do them that way.

[Effrum]

2. I tried both v bar and rope for tricep press downs, but couldnt really tell the difference. are there any benefits using ropes vs v bar

There's no difference, it's just personal preference (some people notice certain attachments irritate their elbows, etc).

[standalj]

There's no difference, it's just personal preference (some people notice certain attachments irritate their elbows, etc).

I think there is a subtle difference--with the rope my elbows are naturally tucked in whereas the v bar slightly flares my elbows out. I do feel a minor difference in my triceps when using either attachment. I can do more weight with a v bar, and that may be because there is more forearm involvement. I think the rope gives more direct tricep work.

[nerynery]

Hey guys, I'm 160 (73kg) lbs atm, around 12% BF.

I've been doing this routine for 1 month now, and I've noticed improvements, a little bit on size (back) and also on overall strenght.

My current stats are (working out 4 times/week):

High Bar Back Squat (was doing front, but now really prefer this one): 10 x 230lbs (105kg)
Bench Press: 10 x 210lbs (95kg)
RDL: 10 x 220lbs (100kg)
Seated Rows: 10 x 120lbs (55kg)
Pull-ups: 10 x BW x 22lbs (10kg) (I do it in a workout after RDL + Seated Rows)

(Last year, my 1 RM were like 310lbs/140kg squat, 265lbs/120kg bench, 400lbs/180kg DL)

I feel like I'm super strong on chest/tricep exercises, decent enough on legs and shoulders, but need to improve on Back/Bicep.

I'm on a bulk, I intend to gain 5-6 lbs, adding the min. possible fat. Then I want to recomp/min-cut to 10% while maintaining the max possible muscle. Currently I'm consuming around 2700-2800 cal, but I'm not sure it's enough.. I started at 2500, but had to increase because it wasn't being enough
for the first 2 weeks.

215-220g Protein
280-300g Carbs
70-80g Fats

I haven't eaten and fast food or drank any sodas or basically eat any kind of processed food for the last 3 years (basically since I started working out, bro-splitting, except last year).
My food is mainly good protein source (meat, eggs, tuna, whey), slow complex carbs (whole wheat pasta, rice, sweet potato, oats) and omega3/6 fats + nuts.

Any opinions on my food intake and improvement? Thanks guys.

[davo26]

No, but I certainly would if my gym had something like that to raise the bench. I put the bench on a slight incline and do them that way.

same.

[krysix]

Found a way of doing Reverse Flyes parallel to the ground with 20lbs dumbells. Anyone else doing like this?

I have a bench like this in my gym, I just remove the part where you stick your feet doing crunches and standing I put my chest in the part where you put your calves doing crunches. I hope I've explained it clear enough.
http://www.trackmasterfitness.com/G0...alCrunches.gif

[RyGuy14]

Well guys after 36.5 pages, 2 days, and several eye drops later, I'm finally caught up on this thread.
First off: fantastic community you guys have going here. I haven't seen guys this chummy since the Spring Cutters Crew on misc this past summer

Anywho, been on Allpro for about 6 weeks now after coming off a homemade PPL 2x/week workout in an attempt to change up from my previous volume. Needless to say, my body definitely responds better to higher volume, so I thought why the hell not try this out...
The conundrum of course is my newly developed low-rep strength from Allpro (in the 8 rep range for compounds like bench, squat, and RDL). I know I respond well to higher volume training, so I don't think adapting to this sort of training will be difficult (or un-welcome; I'm ready for something new); however, my mid-rep strength endurance is not very good (like I said earlier, around 8 reps for balls-out-failure).

So, I'm kicking around the idea of starting with either A/B Revision 1 full-body 4-5x a week or U/L 4-5x a week

A:
Front squats
Chin-ups (shoulder width grip)
Bench press (very slight incline)
Seated rows (wide grip, pull bar to pecs)
Leg curls
Concentration curls (alternate between arms with no/minimal rest)
Rope pressdowns
Standing calf raises
Wide grip upright rows (barbell or cable)

B:
Romanian deadlifts
Pull-ups (wide grip)
Dips (parallel or V bar)
Chest-supported dumbbell rows (let elbows flare away from body)
Leg extensions
Incline dumbbell curls
Overhead extensions
Seated calf raises
Side lateral raises (dumbbell or cable)

OR
U:
Bench
Row
Flys (cable or machine here?)
Reverse Flys
Tri Pushdown
Preachers
Lat. Raises

L:
Front Squat
RDL
Leg Ext.
Leg Curl
Calf Raises (standing)
Calf Raises (seated)

Difficult choice here. Probably will start with 30 reps and see how it goes from there. Just tough deciding between full-body or U/L. Allpro was U/L and I enjoyed it, BUT I don't want to lose out on marginal gains by starting full-body and upgrading a few months down the road either.

[kRaop]

What would be better:

A: Leg Press

or

B: Front Squat at the smith machine

I don't have a squat rack in my gym.

Thanks!

[ThatOneLurker]

What would be better:

A: Leg Press

or

B: Front Squat at the smith machine

I don't have a squat rack in my gym.

Thanks!

Leg Press.

[69cam]

Do you own a home gym? (seems like by the avatar)
Which equipment do you have, and how do you work your lower body. I'm planning to get a gym in my own home next year.

Ya I workout at home, I have a power rack and vertical leg press.

U/L

Bench
BOR
Incline DB bench press
Chins
Lateral
Curls
Tri Ext


F. Squat
R. Deads
Leg ext
Leg Curl
Calf raises

[golfwolf]

Does anyone use wrist straps for RDLs?

I'm only doing 275, but with the constant tension I need wraps to prevent my grip from giving out prematurely. Obviously my grip strength needs work, but I don't want to sacrifice hamstring development.

Thoughts?

[standalj]

Ryguy - I am doing a variation of the first routine you posted--the variation is incorporating Kelei's latest recommendations in this thread. Same split setup with 95% of the exercises.

[Effrum]

Does anyone use wrist straps for RDLs?

I'm only doing 275, but with the constant tension I need wraps to prevent my grip from giving out prematurely. Obviously my grip strength needs work, but I don't want to sacrifice hamstring development.

Thoughts?

I think eventually you have to get straps, it's almost unavoidable. Your hamstrings/posterior chain are much stronger/larger muscles than your forearms so it's natural that your forearms/grip become the limiting factor. Even with straps, they're still getting work - they just aren't forcing you to sacrifice development of the other muscles, like you said.

At first I was determined to not use straps and just let my forearms get stronger, but yeah, that had me stuck at a pretty low weight for a long time lol. When I said screw it and got straps, my weight went up by like 50 lbs and I actually started to feel it in my lower back and hamstrings.

[standalj]

At first I was determined to not use straps and just let my forearms get stronger, but yeah, that had me stuck at a pretty low weight for a long time lol. When I said screw it and got straps, my weight went up by like 50 lbs and I actually started to feel it in my lower back and hamstrings.

I am in the same boat. I am only doing 165 because of limited grip strength. It isn't until the last few reps in the last set that are an issue. I don't think I'd have a problem doing over 200 with straps. I have a pair that I used when doing front squats; might be time to break them out as I don't feel like 165 is taxing my hams. I feel it a bit in my lower back, but nothing major.

[davo26]

yeah, defo wear those straps, its a lower back/ham exercise, strength of grip doesnt matter here.

[standalj]

yeah, defo wear those straps, its a lower back/ham exercise, strength of grip doesnt matter here.

Well today just happens to be RDL day so I might just break out the straps!

[NewAgeMayan]

Hey Kelei you still lurking this thread?

[Effrum]

He pops in every so often, but I couldn't tell you when he'll show up next.

[NewAgeMayan]

He pops in every so often, but I couldn't tell you when he'll show up next.

I guess I may as well post my question...

Kelei, what are your thoughts on ingesting carbs intra-workout? Im particularly interested in this in regards to over-reaching, glycogen depletion and hypertrophy. Specifically, are we wanting to deplete glycogen stores as much as practically possible when over-reaching, where taking carbs intra-workout will compromise this?

Ill try and be as clear as I can: if hypertrophy is the main goal, and the trainee is running an over-reach cycle (full body), how crucial to this goal is glycogen depletion? Is depletion usually just a consequence of the frequency-volume, and not a 'goal' itself?

Alternatively, are intra-workout carbs ultimately just part of your daily macro count and as such have little acute impact on glycogen stores? Consider perhaps that the trainee is recomping, so his carb intake throughout the rest of the day is 'reasonable', and his total calorie count is not at a significant deficit.

CLIFFS:

1)hypertrophy is the goal
2)running a full body over-reach cycle
3)do we want to compromise/deplete glycogen stores as much as possible?

[Effrum]

CLIFFS:

1)hypertrophy is the goal
2)running a full body over-reach cycle
3)do we want to compromise/deplete glycogen stores as much as possible?

This is an interesting thought, I'd be curious to see Kelei's response.

Just because it got me thinking, I wanted to throw in my .02.

Kelei has said before that hypertrophy is achieved by a combination of time under tension (I think that's the right term) and fatigue, so in that sense we want to lift a weight range that gives the "best of both worlds" so to speak (which happens to be 10RM, moderate weight and moderate fatigue). Considering that fatigue and effort are our goal for stimulating growth, I don't think glycogen depletion is really a goal per se, even in an overreach. Glycogen depletion just happens when you expend the stores of energy your muscles are holding, but that doesn't necessarily imply that you've exhausted them to a level that will stimulate growth/hypertrophy - it just means that you've expended all the stores they had from food sources.

So, my thought is that the important thing is fatiguing your muscles at the desired rep range, not whether or not you've depleted your glycogen stores.

Of course I could be completely wrong, just thought it was an interesting topic lol

[Corpsez]

Well today just happens to be RDL day so I might just break out the straps!

Do it!! I remember when I put straps on... Never looked back. Think I was doing like 275 with grip starting to fail. Sitting at 360 now since I let go of my grip strength ego.