Babyslayer comments on cookie cutter programs; whats your take?

[JByrd1020life]

I develop a lot of programs for people online, it is not easy, it is time consuming, and to do it right you have to adjust it often. With that said, nothing wrong with a proven program, especially as a beginner. Is it the fastest way to get stronger? Probably not, but it doesn't mean that it is wrong or bad.

[ahox]

I develop a lot of programs for people online, it is not easy, it is time consuming, and to do it right you have to adjust it often. With that said, nothing wrong with a proven program, especially as a beginner. Is it the fastest way to get stronger? Probably not, but it doesn't mean that it is wrong or bad.

How much faster/simpler can getting strong get than by adding 5-10lbs to the bar every workout?

[Retardo-pex]

"to people who follow typical beginner programs like 5x5 etc, do you follow them because you cant make something better on your own? because you dont know what would be better even if you saw it?
I just wonder why basically anyone would do something like starting strength unless they were in some sort of odd situation where you dont care about how you look or about gaining strength on anything other than a handful of compounds that by them selves build unbalanced physiques and injury prone bodies." - Babyslayer

Babyslayer is a monster but look back a few years ago when he was very overweight used horrible form on everything and was injured a fair amount of the time. It sounds more like he is remembering where he started a bit differently than what history shows.

I guess it depends on where you draw the line of cookie cutter or not. I started how most 15 years olds do, muscle and fitness whatever lee priest and jay cutler said was a good way to get big, maybe useing nasser al sonbaty's shoulder routine :P I started getting more into sports in high school, reading about strength and performance vs bodybuilding. Awkwardly got into westside methods ( to the point I was able to) I basically read everything I could online as well as talking to other track coaches and athletes to see what they did at the college level in terms of strength and conditioning. I was basically doing conjugate method with a minor in the olympic lifts...and this worked amazingly for me at the time. I was 5'9" 155 lbs, could dunk a basketball, was the league all star for the 100 m dash (didn't train for racing), all star for shot put with a PR of 48' and change, and a wannabe discus thrower with a PR of 131'. Now if you know nothing about throwing at the high school level that's not a big deal, the thing was anyone that could beat me or come close to my throws were 6'+ and 240 lbs or heavier. My lifts got to 365x2 squat, 405 deadlift, and 275x2 bench as well as 235 clean and jerk with a 175 snatch. I attribute 100% of the mediocre athletic success I had to westside methods and olympic lifs, as my freshman year I started out 5'7" 115 lbs soaking wet.

Now the catch is at the time I was still learning every day, so I was basically using that old dave tate 9 week westside template as my main reference and would plug and play with exercises as I went along for trial and error. TO me this is a cookie cutter routine, I just already had an idea of specific goals so I could tailor the training with that in mind. I think for the natural lifter looking for performance having some sort of plan is paramount to success. EVen some of the best lifters I know who will tell you they wing it, are being driven by good coaches and are "following a cookie cutter routine" in a sense. The better coaches I know love **** like 5x5, especially for guys who are just getting into powerlifting or strength related sports. They aren't all as strong as babyslayer but I know one guy who has/had a 700-800 lb squat and was SHW who always recommended programs like this, especially to us frail little sub 200 lbers.

Different strokes I guess, always more than one way to achieve success. At the end of the day its the effort you put into your training diet and recovery, not so much whether you follow a set program to the T or wing it, because even when you wing it you are basing your trianing on your own set of principles, you aren't exactly just doing something new and exciting or totally random. COmpare every successful lifter's training and tons of similarities creep up, if you find the reddit post or blog by the gzcl guy ( swole at every height?" that is the basic idea behind his methods.

[doctor220]

I can't speak for 5x5 but I did try SS and followed it just as written with all the right weights and everything and I was bored with it and felt like I could do more. Sorry, I mean that's just me everybody trains different and we're both trying to get bigger and stronger so I feel like we should respect each other in how we go about it. I've said this before but there is no magic rep scheme,percent,or exercise order. Lifting a lot, eating a lot, and resting a lot will get you to where you want to be.

you could do more? Dude you add 5 lbs every workout, if there was a point in which you felt you could do more, you'd literally run the program for 2 weeks and now you're squatting 30 more lbs for your 5RM. You act like this is something you run for life. It's not, it's for a really short amount of time in comparison to a serious person's training duration. There's literally 0 reason for a noob to not run one of the popular templates at first.

[APflyer]

cookie cutter programs are the only way for a lot of trainees to work within a reasonable range of volume and overload, especially beginners who don't understand percentages, RPE and sometimes even the lifts themselves. programs like SS are great but i don't think a lot of people stick with them long enough to see big results; you should be able to achieve 2/3/4 pretty quickly on SS but due to chitty diet/impatience a lot of people blame the program and move onto something else.

whenever i'm in between programs i try and use prilepin's chart to make something to follow for a couple weeks until i've picked something, i find it's a lot easier to go into the gym with certain numbers in mind, when i go in without any idea of what i want to do i usually end up messing around and not having a great training session. all in all it really depends on the individual ... things work and don't work for different people but the fact is there are a lot of proven programs out there that get RESULTS provided you do your best to more or less stay within the parameters of the programming.

[MikeMadden96]

you could do more? Dude you add 5 lbs every workout, if there was a point in which you felt you could do more, you'd literally run the program for 2 weeks and now you're squatting 30 more lbs for your 5RM. You act like this is something you run for life. It's not, it's for a really short amount of time in comparison to a serious person's training duration. There's literally 0 reason for a noob to not run one of the popular templates at first.

it was 3 sets, not gonna kill you there. It had its times where it was tough but I didn't like it. I could not run SS and add weight each workout and get the same or better results by using a different scheme.

[doctor220]

it was 3 sets, not gonna kill you there. It had its times where it was tough but I didn't like it. I could not run SS and add weight each workout and get the same or better results by using a different scheme.

Why do you want to kill yourself? This is powerlifting. We want to build strength. If I can somehow build strength by sitting my a** on the couch and doing nothing, I'd be doing that. SS is plenty of volume for beginners. It's essentially perfect for it's target base. I see no way in which it could be improved.

[DMikey]

He may have meant that if you're goal is not 100% strength and nothing else, completely disregarding muscle balance and your physique, that these programs probobly aren't for you, but it is hard to disprove them as they give you a really good baseline for further training. Although if you are only concerned with how strong you are, nothing wrong with running a program like SS for more than 3 or 4 months.

[doctor220]

He may have meant that if you're goal is not 100% strength and nothing else, completely disregarding muscle balance and your physique, that these programs probobly aren't for you, but it is hard to disprove them as they give you a really good baseline for further training. Although if you are only concerned with how strong you are, nothing wrong with running a program like SS for more than 3 or 4 months.

Yes but doing BB style training from the beginning is idiotic. Any BB should still do SS first for 3-6 months and they will have a good base to build off. Any person doing weight training for basically any reason should do SS for 3-6 months, it's just a quick way to get to where you need to be, to then specialize in where you want to be.

Also, let's not forget that thing whole idea about volume being so good, it's not about the gross amount of volume, its the volume compared to previous training methods. If you have someone start lifting, squatting high volumes, then eventually that's not going to help them as much as it would if they switched to it from a lower volume plan. Everyone is getting mega trigger happy about the people switching to high volume methods and the gains made. The important thing is that it is a switch . Most people don't understand this.

[paulosantos0922]

I get why people in the past did SS or 5x5, but if you were starting from scratch as a newbie, you'd do SS or 5x5? Or would 5/3/1 BBB or something else be a better option? (This isn't directed at anyone in particular. Just asking).

Personally, I'd get on 5/3/1 BBB and put on some size and then switch over to a different 5/3/1 template.

[Trigger543]

Leave something in the tank? You run a 5x5 for 3-6 months, not your whole life. Run your super high rep cheat reps and tell me how it works out though. You're not a special snowflake, what has worked for thousands will work for you too. You'd rather get volume and strength like he does? He weighs like 350 lbs and is way stronger than you. Show me someone with impressive lifts that doesn't look muscular. The only way DYEL happens is when people manage their fat poorly. Anyone that's strong at all is going to be pretty muscular if they're even reasonably lean.

Not true.

[Daemonium]

They work... I dont see the problem with someone inexperienced following them.

They probably want something cookie cutter anyway to help them get started.

[Daemonium]

I get why people in the past did SS or 5x5, but if you were starting from scratch as a newbie, you'd do SS or 5x5? Or would 5/3/1 BBB or something else be a better option? (This isn't directed at anyone in particular. Just asking).

Personally, I'd get on 5/3/1 BBB and put on some size and then switch over to a different 5/3/1 template.

The 5/3/1 progression is much slower. 5x5, SS, etc. will allow you to add weight more frequently, which only makes sense at that point in the game.

[doctor220]

Not true.

Ok prove me wrong chief, show me

[doctor220]

I have no idea why someone would want personalized instruction at the beginning of the training anyway. When you don't know anything, you have no way of knowing if what you are doing or what someone else is telling you to do is good or not. Vs the cookie cutter programs which have worked for thousands upon thousands. But if someone can't see the irony in a person that people pay to coach telling people that as beginners they need personalized instruction, then they deserved to be parted with their money anyway.

[Jason2459]

Ok prove me wrong chief, show me

really? There's always the exception. Absolutes are never a good stance to have.

I'd say this guys pretty strong and most say DYEL when they see him. He's done some good research too.

[Retardo-pex]

really? There's always the exception. Absolutes are never a good stance to have.

I'd say this guys pretty strong and most say DYEL when they see him. He's done some good research too.

I think that is where the stipulation of "reasonably lean" kicks in. Maybe its just me but from his bench set up it looks like he was have massive legs if he was lower body fat. I could easily be wrong but yeah, a bench and biceps bro he is not.

[Jason2459]

I think that is where the stipulation of "reasonably lean" kicks in. Maybe its just me but from his bench set up it looks like he was have massive legs if he was lower body fat. I could easily be wrong but yeah, a bench and biceps bro he is not.

Yeah, I'd consider him reasonably lean. He's not unreasonably obese.

[doctor220]

really? There's always the exception. Absolutes are never a good stance to have.

I'd say this guys pretty strong and most say DYEL when they see him. He's done some good research too.

Eh if he cuts his hair and wears a tighter shirt, I bet he looks pretty big. I really haven't seen anyone that totals like 1400+ that doesn't look pretty muscular while being reasonably lean. That dude's legs look huge

[dlt76028]

I don't know why anyone would listen to him after that vid he posted about supplements and how he just did any and everything I phucked up his endocrine system and got horrible acne ect... Then his selling point was listen to me cuz I messed up and know what not to do now. Pay me...


No thanks jeff

[InspecktaDeck]

Blaha said this. Leeman said that. But Candito said to do this.

If you cant figure most of this out yourself your never going to be an impressive lifter anyway. Take little bits of ideas from here and there, but dont hang on every word these ppl fuking say. Everybody thats strong got that way from doing shyt that works for them. Your not going to become Coan by following the Coan deadlift program. Not completly relevent to thread but meh

[doctor220]

Blaha said this. Leeman said that. But Candito said to do this.

If you cant figure most of this out yourself your never going to be an impressive lifter anyway. Take little bits of ideas from here and there, but dont hang on every word these ppl fuking say. Everybody thats strong got that way from doing shyt that works for them. Your not going to become Coan by following the Coan deadlift program. Not completly relevent to thread but meh

This so much

[musclehead09]

The 5/3/1 progression is much slower. 5x5, SS, etc. will allow you to add weight more frequently, which only makes sense at that point in the game.

In terms of adding weight to bar yes but your maxes go up really quick on any program as a beginner. My friend switched over from bodybuilding and within 2 months of 5/3/1 BBB his bench went from 315 to 365. His deadlift went from 455 to 550 in 5 months. He was of course advanced to begin with but regardless that kind of progress is really fast. Another friend of mine weighing 275 started with a 315 deadlift and in one month of 5/3/1 deadlifted 405 (he felt like remaxing). That kind of progress would've been seen on any program.

Just because you take weight off the bar each month on 5/3/1 doesn't necessarily mean your strength doesn't progress as fast. Hitting rep PR's every week will make you strong too.

There are beginners who follow westside correctly and have the same rate of progress. 5x5 is simple and effective (I did SS and another variant for 11 months). But adding 5 lbs to the bar every workout WHILE STARTING LOW and building up to your old 5 rep max over 6 weeks doing 3x5's is as effective as hitting rep PRs every week from what I've seen.

[Millington]

I don't agree with the above quote. I think he made a good point in some of his previous posts regarding the rigid mentality that 'following a program' sometimes entails. IE: people being too afraid to add some bicep or additional tricep work if they are doing SS because its not in the program, etc.. The same goes for how often you train.

[BryBB]

I agree with many things babyslayer has to say and i understand why he doesn't like the original starting strengh! Its true that ss creates an imbalanced physique and u can get stronger easily if u add additional exercises which will make you also prevent imbalances and that also will make you stronger. Ive always looked at ss like an incomplete routine or better yet a base which needs addional things added. And dint say it will be too taxing. Any beginner can train 3x a week adding 3 or 4 more exercises to ss if they are eating properly and sleeping enough.

[spicewood1990]

There's (not a very well) hidden motive in a lot of what he posts on ******** with regards to how much he's coached his gf to lift and these random testimonials that always seem to come from him.


its kind of like asking marc lobliners advice on supplements

Babyslayer is an amazing lifter but as said above maybe not the best coach. If 5x5 was an injury prone load of crap that didnt work then why would it be so popular for beginners, a good way of taking peoples money is by making them think you know some hidden secret to what they want and by parting with their cash they'll know everything they need to achieve no matter what their goal is, kind of like those get rich seminars where the secret to making loads of money is being the host

[doctor220]

I don't agree with the above quote. I think he made a good point in some of his previous posts regarding the rigid mentality that 'following a program' sometimes entails. IE: people being too afraid to add some bicep or additional tricep work if they are doing SS because its not in the program, etc.. The same goes for how often you train.

Rows and bench will get your arms plenty big if you get them strong enough. You're never going to see a guy bench 405 with small triceps.

[musclehead09]

Rows and bench will get your arms plenty big if you get them strong enough. You're never going to see a guy bench 405 with small triceps.

This is what I always say. There are exceptions to the rule but this applies 99% of the time.

[dtaps24]

This is what I always say. There are exceptions to the rule but this applies 99% of the time.

99% of people see the word impossible and get sad, but they are just reading it wrong, it's actually two words: I'm possible. Bo-lieve in yourself and you will go far.

[Daemonium]

In terms of adding weight to bar yes but your maxes go up really quick on any program as a beginner. My friend switched over from bodybuilding and within 2 months of 5/3/1 BBB his bench went from 315 to 365. His deadlift went from 455 to 550 in 5 months. He was of course advanced to begin with but regardless that kind of progress is really fast. Another friend of mine weighing 275 started with a 315 deadlift and in one month of 5/3/1 deadlifted 405 (he felt like remaxing). That kind of progress would've been seen on any program.

Just because you take weight off the bar each month on 5/3/1 doesn't necessarily mean your strength doesn't progress as fast. Hitting rep PR's every week will make you strong too.

There are beginners who follow westside correctly and have the same rate of progress. 5x5 is simple and effective (I did SS and another variant for 11 months). But adding 5 lbs to the bar every workout WHILE STARTING LOW and building up to your old 5 rep max over 6 weeks doing 3x5's is as effective as hitting rep PRs every week from what I've seen.

no idea what you're trying to prove here

I've run 5/3/1. You don't take weight off the bar each month.

5x5 will have you squat, benching and deadlifting more frequently which will be more effective in the beginning vs. adding a bunch of accessory work. The program just happens to accomodate quick progression.