"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[MakeAllKindzz]

So I've been doing the posture routine as you know. I had a question of I sub in for seated leg curls or if I am doing it wrong. When I do seated leg curls, I feel fine after the exercise. But the next day the back of my knee or felt like end of my hamstring muscle started to hurt. Then second day it was even worse and it hurt to fully extend my knee(weird because it was only my right knee). Now it's better after 4 days. What should I sub in for it? I thought my gym had glute ham raises but they don't lol...they just have a glute machine.

[davisj3537]

So I've been doing the posture routine as you know. I had a question of I sub in for seated leg curls or if I am doing it wrong. When I do seated leg curls, I feel fine after the exercise. But the next day the back of my knee or felt like end of my hamstring muscle started to hurt. Then second day it was even worse and it hurt to fully extend my knee(weird because it was only my right knee). Now it's better after 4 days. What should I sub in for it? I thought my gym had glute ham raises but they don't lol...they just have a glute machine.

Don't give up on it so easily. Drop the weight and try another leg curl machine first.

[Ion33]

How would you recommend working snatch/clean n jerk into one of these? I want to be more balanced.

[Jesse012789]

this is the 2nd time now a personel trainer has come up to me and you know took the initiative spotted me then its goes into the program im on so i show them the 4 day upper lowersplit im on (fierce 5 of course) and they basaclly say ahh thats no good thats all jacked up and **** like that one personal trainer a retired bodybuilder probably in hit late 50s still pretty big. are they just saying this to make me think there way is way better so i cough up cash for there training? ive made huge progress in the last 2 months so im obviously not stalling on this program?

[davisj3537]

How would you recommend working snatch/clean n jerk into one of these? I want to be more balanced.

Which program?

this is the 2nd time now a personel trainer has come up to me and you know took the initiative spotted me then its goes into the program im on so i show them the 4 day upper lowersplit im on (fierce 5 of course) and they basaclly say ahh thats no good thats all jacked up and **** like that one personal trainer a retired bodybuilder probably in hit late 50s still pretty big. are they just saying this to make me think there way is way better so i cough up cash for there training? ive made huge progress in the last 2 months so im obviously not stalling on this program?

Purely from a statistical perspective, at least 99% of trainers are complete idiots pushing bro science. They'd put you on some stupid 5 day bro split with a ton of shoulder, chest and arm work. Furthermore, 99% of programs are bad ones. Trust that you have a 1% program and keep doing what you're doing. In the future I wouldn't even talk to the PTs at your gym. It is a waste of your time unless you are at a world class gym with elite coaching (you aren't.)

[jumboliah]

I'd be tempted to put your on the Upper/Lower and possibly the Kyphosis/Lordosis Upper/Lower for a few months. (Post #3)

Also, if I ever did want to put more of a focus on strength but wanted the physique/posture to stay balanced, what do you think I should do? A strength programs with more upper back/glute/ab accessories?

[Ion33]

Which program?

I guess any but the novice. Whichever it fits best into.

[davisj3537]

Also, if I ever did want to put more of a focus on strength but wanted the physique/posture to stay balanced, what do you think I should do? A strength programs with more upper back/glute/ab accessories?

Yes, but that is basically what F5 is. For it to be a strength specialty program it can't have all the acc lifts to balance it all out.

I guess any but the novice. Whichever it fits best into.

It would fit well into anything with a PPL format. It can go any either back or leg day as long as the back and leg days never end up going back to back. Make sense?

[boxlaxman]

davisj...

First, thanks for the work on this program. I have been reading and getting up to speed. Can you tell me your thoughts/reccos for me??

Info:

- Looking for a program that my wife and I can BOTH follow
- BOTH - former athletes returning to gym about 4 months ago, I work out after work ahead of my wife and then train her.
- ME - 48yo, 6'0, 185, about 11% bodyfat, coming off a 3 month cut and slowly ramping up the kcals (about 2100 from 1850 so far), undersized chest/arms
- HER - 53yo, 5'7, 118, about 16% bodyfat, kcals at about 1600
- BOTH - Following the Stopani size program for now
- Looking to grow muscle - My muscularity is good, here is weak but getting better - Goals are more aesthetic than anything else...

Unsure of max's - Pics and workout info on bodyspace

Thoughts, recommendations or other info needed??

Thanks for your time...

[waqasnaw]

Hi, I just started this Novice program a few weeks ago.. and my only concern is Pendlay Rows, I can't seem to get it for the life of me and when I approach someone at the gym they tell me their"own" version of form aka dont touch the ground because it puts too much pressure on your back. Can you please advise me any other videos I can watch.. where I can properly learn it. Also, what app for a phone would you guys recommend to track my progress/ add weekly stuff.

Thanks!

[davisj3537]

davisj...

First, thanks for the work on this program. I have been reading and getting up to speed. Can you tell me your thoughts/reccos for me??

Info:

- Looking for a program that my wife and I can BOTH follow
- BOTH - former athletes returning to gym about 4 months ago, I work out after work ahead of my wife and then train her.
- ME - 48yo, 6'0, 185, about 11% bodyfat, coming off a 3 month cut and slowly ramping up the kcals (about 2100 from 1850 so far), undersized chest/arms
- HER - 53yo, 5'7, 118, about 16% bodyfat, kcals at about 1600
- BOTH - Following the Stopani size program for now
- Looking to grow muscle - My muscularity is good, here is weak but getting better - Goals are more aesthetic than anything else...

Unsure of max's - Pics and workout info on bodyspace

Thoughts, recommendations or other info needed??

Thanks for your time...

I'd really like more info about both of your lifting histories to give you a program to work on. Time constraints? How many days per week do you guys wanna go? 5 rep maxes would help a bit if you had any kind of general idea.

Hi, I just started this Novice program a few weeks ago.. and my only concern is Pendlay Rows, I can't seem to get it for the life of me and when I approach someone at the gym they tell me their"own" version of form aka dont touch the ground because it puts too much pressure on your back. Can you please advise me any other videos I can watch.. where I can properly learn it. Also, what app for a phone would you guys recommend to track my progress/ add weekly stuff.

Thanks!

I use gymbuddy and it works pretty good I guess. Pendlays are a bit tough at first. Prop the weights up on something if you are having to reach too far to grab the bar. Vary your stance, flare your elbows and bend your knees.

[OnesAndZeros]

Not sure if I should continue with the 3-day novice or if I need to consider something else.

I've never really did weight lifting before, but started up the Fierce 5 plan back in June. Had a lower back injury at the beginning that messed up a few exercises, but that is all well now. (just mentioning cause it shows up in the graph)

I dug up my little journal book and decided to plot the major lifts out (easier to see this way). From the graph, I can see the days when I needed to drop or stay at a weight because I wasn't feeling up to progressing. I can also see where I progressed early, and when I was barely progressing. Overall, I feel like I just can't maintain the original progression well at all. In come cases, like Bench, it looks really obvious. DLs on the other end seem to be ok (225 last week wasn't too hard and I should have actually added weight but forgot).

So either my body can't recover fast enough (I'll be 37 very soon, which isn't old, but not very young either), I needed to shove more protein down my throat (which I've been doing more of as of 1 week ago) and that is limiting, I need to push my self harder (I hold back some times because I almost never a spotter. that deload section is after I failed on an IP and now I'm a little paranoid on IP and it shows) or something else.

if I was to change something major, the only thing I can think of would be the 4 day upper/lower split so that it is only 2x/week/muscle group instead of three to allow more recovery, but not sure if that is the right solution. Too inexperienced in the grand scheme of things.
(though sadly, DLs aren't on that list, and I really like them)

[davisj3537]

Not sure if I should continue with the 3-day novice or if I need to consider something else.

I've never really did weight lifting before, but started up the Fierce 5 plan back in June. Had a lower back injury at the beginning that messed up a few exercises, but that is all well now. (just mentioning cause it shows up in the graph)

I dug up my little journal book and decided to plot the major lifts out (easier to see this way). From the graph, I can see the days when I needed to drop or stay at a weight because I wasn't feeling up to progressing. I can also see where I progressed early, and when I was barely progressing. Overall, I feel like I just can't maintain the original progression well at all. In come cases, like Bench, it looks really obvious. DLs on the other end seem to be ok (225 last week wasn't too hard and I should have actually added weight but forgot).

So either my body can't recover fast enough (I'll be 37 very soon, which isn't old, but not very young either), I needed to shove more protein down my throat (which I've been doing more of as of 1 week ago) and that is limiting, I need to push my self harder (I hold back some times because I almost never a spotter. that deload section is after I failed on an IP and now I'm a little paranoid on IP and it shows) or something else.

if I was to change something major, the only thing I can think of would be the 4 day upper/lower split so that it is only 2x/week/muscle group instead of three to allow more recovery, but not sure if that is the right solution. Too inexperienced in the grand scheme of things.
(though sadly, DLs aren't on that list, and I really like them)

Well diet has a lot to do with it. Then again so can your age and I'm not old enough to have experienced it myself, but I don't think 37 is old. I can't really tell you definitively what is the best route. I can only guess. If you feel you'd like more recovery then moving to a different program can be a good thing. If you want DL then I'd advise the U/L and PPL combo. 5 days per week requires quite a bit more of a commitment though.

[OnesAndZeros]

Well diet has a lot to do with it. Then again so can your age and I'm not old enough to have experienced it myself, but I don't think 37 is old. I can't really tell you definitively what is the best route. I can only guess. If you feel you'd like more recovery then moving to a different program can be a good thing. If you want DL then I'd advise the U/L and PPL combo. 5 days per week requires quite a bit more of a commitment though.

Thanks for your time. Rushing seems like an easy way to get into the wrong groove, so I'm going to go a month on the higher protein diet and really try to stick with the progression a bit more (can call a buddy over if I need a spotter). If still stalled, I may bug you a bit later and see where to go. The U/L/PPL would be great, except that the gym is about 20 miles from my house but a short walk from my work, so the work week 3/4 day options are really appealing to me. ...but I might be able to get it to work since it is only one day on the weekend and can maybe do other in-town errands then (I live outside of the city). But I'll cross that bridge if necessary at the end of Nov.

[Ion33]

My squat is lagging compared to most of my lifts. And I feel like I'd probably benefit more from squatting 3x/week rather than a max of 2. But I've been lifting for half a decade and I'm past the full body stage. I know how important it is to have a really strong squat for basic functional carryover into every day life, athletic things, sports, etc. So how would you go about doing this? 3 lower days and 2 upper days?

[davisj3537]

Thanks for your time. Rushing seems like an easy way to get into the wrong groove, so I'm going to go a month on the higher protein diet and really try to stick with the progression a bit more (can call a buddy over if I need a spotter). If still stalled, I may bug you a bit later and see where to go. The U/L/PPL would be great, except that the gym is about 20 miles from my house but a short walk from my work, so the work week 3/4 day options are really appealing to me. ...but I might be able to get it to work since it is only one day on the weekend and can maybe do other in-town errands then (I live outside of the city). But I'll cross that bridge if necessary at the end of Nov.

Sounds good. Bulk and see where things take you in a month.

My squat is lagging compared to most of my lifts. And I feel like I'd probably benefit more from squatting 3x/week rather than a max of 2. But I've been lifting for half a decade and I'm past the full body stage. I know how important it is to have a really strong squat for basic functional carryover into every day life, athletic things, sports, etc. So how would you go about doing this? 3 lower days and 2 upper days?

There are a lot of intermediate lifters that squat 3xweek, but I don't personally think it is very efficient. If you are truly intermediate I think 2xweek is the perfect mix of volume and frequency. Just curious, what are your lifts?

[Ion33]

There are a lot of intermediate lifters that squat 3xweek, but I don't personally think it is very efficient. If you are truly intermediate I think 2xweek is the perfect mix of volume and frequency. Just curious, what are your lifts?

I've done max sets of 295x5 squat, 280x5 bench, not sure on deadlift b/c I haven't done it in a while. Mostly SLDL in recent times. Weighing ~175. The squat/bench were near the end of my last 'lean bulk' where I went to 180. As someone else said before, my upper lifts as a whole are more advanced than my lower lifts as a whole. I've always wanted my most dominant lift to be my squat, lol.

[davisj3537]

I've done max sets of 295x5 squat, 280x5 bench, not sure on deadlift b/c I haven't done it in a while. Mostly SLDL in recent times. Weighing ~175. The squat/bench were near the end of my last 'lean bulk' where I went to 180. As someone else said before, my upper lifts as a whole are more advanced than my lower lifts as a whole. I've always wanted my most dominant lift to be my squat, lol.

You can experiment with a early intermediate 3xweek squat routine if you like, but I think you're too advanced for it...especially upper.

[GreekTrojan]

I'm going to start your Kyphosis/Lordosis split as I have both in spades (and led me to getting a sore lower back on all-pros, which prompted to stop lifting to heal up). If I understand correctly it follows the same progression as Upper/Lower intermediate (u/l/rest/u/l/rest/rest)? Same weight progression as well (I'm a novice on a cut who wants to fix my postural problems now before going with the novice program while bulking)? Also, is their room for hip thrusts in your novice program (both to continue with postural training, plus dat ass reasons) or would I be tempting fate/messing with the program?

[boxlaxman]

I'd really like more info about both of your lifting histories to give you a program to work on. Time constraints? How many days per week do you guys wanna go? 5 rep maxes would help a bit if you had any kind of general idea.

Sorry for the delay. End of the quarter for me as a teacher.

On max's, the best I can do is the BodySpace 1 rep max calculator:
For me
Bench - 160-180
Squat - 230-250
Dead - 250

We like to go 4 days per week - Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, Thursday. I am typically finding a way to do my lifts during the school day in the team weightroom and then meeting my wife at the gym and "training" her.

I am an experienced lifter from back in the day and a former CSCS from 15-20 years ago. It has probably been that long since I was actively in the weightroom. I continued to be involved in athletics, coaching, officiating, etc. so the general muscle tone came back pretty quick with smaller chest and arms than I would like. I seem so be maintaining 185 lbs at about 2100 kcals so I will need to bump that up a bit I would think to get some muscle packed on.

This is all new to the wife. Although she has been a high level lifetime dancer, she never spent much time in the weightroom. She is no longer afraid and is learning and working on proper form.

I would say her max's are:
Bench: 55lbs
Squat: Still doing bodyweight for proper depth
Dead: 70-80

Thanks again for your time...

[Ion33]

You can experiment with a early intermediate 3xweek squat routine if you like, but I think you're too advanced for it...especially upper.

Alright thanks for the input. Is the main problem that all upper lifts are crammed into an upper day? What would you recommend? If I don't do the 3x/week thing w/ two uppers and three lowers or a simple upper/lower/off repeat, I'm leaning towards something like your hybrid UL/PPL. Squat is still hit more often than straight PPL like I've been doing lately.

[davisj3537]

I'm going to start your Kyphosis/Lordosis split as I have both in spades (and led me to getting a sore lower back on all-pros, which prompted to stop lifting to heal up). If I understand correctly it follows the same progression as Upper/Lower intermediate (u/l/rest/u/l/rest/rest)? Same weight progression as well (I'm a novice on a cut who wants to fix my postural problems now before going with the novice program while bulking)? Also, is their room for hip thrusts in your novice program (both to continue with postural training, plus dat ass reasons) or would I be tempting fate/messing with the program?

You need to add muscle to your lacking areas to fix postural issues and you aren't going to do that while cutting. You have to bulk man. It will follow UL progression, but that isn't set in stone. If that feels WAY too slow use novice progression for the two big compounds (lat pulldowns and hip thrust.)

Hip thrusts are an extremely demanding lift and can't just be added to the novice program. Fix your posture and then run the normal program.

Sorry for the delay. End of the quarter for me as a teacher.

On max's, the best I can do is the BodySpace 1 rep max calculator:
For me
Bench - 160-180
Squat - 230-250
Dead - 250

We like to go 4 days per week - Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, Thursday. I am typically finding a way to do my lifts during the school day in the team weightroom and then meeting my wife at the gym and "training" her.

I am an experienced lifter from back in the day and a former CSCS from 15-20 years ago. It has probably been that long since I was actively in the weightroom. I continued to be involved in athletics, coaching, officiating, etc. so the general muscle tone came back pretty quick with smaller chest and arms than I would like. I seem so be maintaining 185 lbs at about 2100 kcals so I will need to bump that up a bit I would think to get some muscle packed on.

This is all new to the wife. Although she has been a high level lifetime dancer, she never spent much time in the weightroom. She is no longer afraid and is learning and working on proper form.

I would say her max's are:
Bench: 55lbs
Squat: Still doing bodyweight for proper depth
Dead: 70-80

Thanks again for your time...

Both of your lifts tell me you'd be best off on the Novice program. Having said that, if you prefer a 4xweek template you can run the UL if you want. This will provide the slower progression she'll need and fit your schedule much better. The UL will give you a bit more volume on chest and arms than the novice, though I wouldn't worry about that on any program to be honest. A strong back is the foundation for any healthy individual and these program facilitate that. I'd take a long lifting career over a fuller chest any day.

Alright thanks for the input. Is the main problem that all upper lifts are crammed into an upper day? What would you recommend? If I don't do the 3x/week thing w/ two uppers and three lowers or a simple upper/lower/off repeat, I'm leaning towards something like your hybrid UL/PPL. Squat is still hit more often than straight PPL like I've been doing lately.

So you've been squatting 1xweek. That tells me a lot. lol. Move to a template that allows you to squat 2xweek and run it for a few months. Going from 1xweek to 3xweek is reaching.

[MrSlippery]

I am going to start the novice full body program tomorrow, have not worked out for a few months as life has been busy, new baby, etc. Having done All Pro and ICF in the past and I think this program looks a little more balanced compared to ICF so am looking forward to it.

Davis one question, I do not have dumbbells at the moment (which I plan to get asap) but what can I substitute for reverse fly in the meantime?? Was thinking a wide grip bent over row maybe, let me know what you think? I unfortunately only have a squat rack, bench and barbells to work with.

[connorpat1995]

Davis one question, I do not have dumbbells at the moment (which I plan to get asap) but what can I substitute for reverse fly in the meantime??

You can use the smaller plates you put on the bar.

[MrSlippery]

You can use the smaller plates you put on the bar.

Well....crap that was too easy. Not sure why I didn't think of the simplest solution thanks for the quick response.

[connorpat1995]

Well....crap that was too easy. Not sure why I didn't think of the simplest solution thanks for the quick response.

lol I made the exact same post when I started

[Ion33]

So you've been squatting 1xweek. That tells me a lot. lol. Move to a template that allows you to squat 2xweek and run it for a few months. Going from 1xweek to 3xweek is reaching.

Well technically it's like 1.9x/week, lol.

2009-2012 = 1x/week (facepalm)
2012-2013 = 3x/week
january '14-august '14 = 2x/week
september '14-now = 1.9x/week

[davisj3537]

Well technically it's like 1.9x/week, lol.

2009-2012 = 1x/week (facepalm)
2012-2013 = 3x/week
january '14-august '14 = 2x/week
september '14-now = 1.9x/week

Not sure what to say bud. I've given my advice. Do what you like with it.

[MaximalPunch]

So I have been cutting for a few months now with AllPro. I'm finally ready to bulk and I like what I see in this Program. Any tips before I start?

[davisj3537]

So I have been cutting for a few months now with AllPro. I'm finally ready to bulk and I like what I see in this Program. Any tips before I start?

Read the FAQs...twice. When you're reading them don't assume any of the advice doesn't apply to you.