How come I'm getting bigger by lifting heavier weights without form?

[semichaud]

Hi.

Been lifting since 2004. Kept increasing the load (how heavy I was lifting) but never bothered going to failure or keeping form. During that time I gained quite a bit of muscle. Then I started doing more research in bodybuilding and how to build more muscle. Read about how you need to lift about 60% of your 1 rep max and go to failure on every set for about 4 sets. Started lifting lighter weights last month (going to failure on each set and keeping momentum close to zero) because I started dieting (20% caloric deficit, 1g protein/lb of lbm) and thought the load would be too much and that it is pointless to lift heavy. Measured lbm last week and lost 6 lbs of lbm and was looking smaller and weaker. Now I started lifting heavy without form, about 50kg per arm for example, since two days ago, and I can see a visible difference. I look bigger and clothes feel tighter even though I am still dieting and in caloric deficit and eating slightly less protein than before (160g/day). How can you explain that?

Thanks

[SlipshodDread]

"since two days ago". You dont get gains in 2 days. Try the same time next week.

[semichaud]

"since two days ago". You dont get gains in 2 days. Try the same time next week.

I totally agree. I'm just trying to understand how come I look bigger in such a short amount of time. I have been lifting since 2004 and kept increasing the load as I said. Could that explain it partially. I want to be objective on this. So in about two weeks of heavy lifting and dieting I will measure total body weight (or rather mass) and use skinfold calipers again to get bf% and deduct lbm and see whether there is a change.

[ironwill2008]

Any visible change in appearance in such a short time span is usually attributable to a change in water weight.

[semichaud]

Any visible change in appearance in such a short time span is usually attributable to a change in water weight.

Yes I know, but I am still dieting at 20% cal deficit. Water weight long gone since my first month of cutting. I'm currently in my second month. I think I'd better wait a week or two and measure lbm and see if it's gone up to be sure. If so then I will keep lifting heavy. Instead of using lighter weights and going to failure and keeping form (I know it's a bad thing from a bodybuilder's point of vue, but why not go for what works)

[semichaud]

I appreciate the replies, guys. Pls keep up the replies if you have anything to add. Thanks

[ironwill2008]

Yes I know, but I am still dieting at 20% cal deficit. Water weight long gone since my first month of cutting. I'm currently in my second month. I think I'd better wait a week or two and measure lbm and see if it's gone up to be sure. If so then I will keep lifting heavy. Instead of using lighter weights and going to failure and keeping form (I know it's a bad thing from a bodybuilder's point of vue, but why not go for what works)

Water weight gain/loss can occur at any time during the duration of a cut, not just at the beginning of the process. Eat more or less carbs in a day, and/or a more or less-salty meal, and observe what happens to your definition.

[semichaud]

Water weight gain/loss can occur at any time during the duration of a cut, not just at the beginning of the process. Eat more or less carbs in a day, and/or a more or less-salty meal, and observe what happens to your definition.

I see. So it must be water weight then. But I was not talking about my weight going up, I meant that I look bigger after a few days of lifting heavy (50kg) as compared to lifting lighter (20kg) for the past month. I'll measure my lbm again in two weeks. See how it has changed. I have another question. Would you say it is normal to lose lean body mass when on a cut despite setting the caloric deficit and protein intake correctly? It's my first time cutting properly. Have attempted it last year but reduced calories too drastically.

[ironwill2008]

I see. So it must be water weight then. But I was not talking about my weight going up, I meant that I look bigger after a few days of lifting heavy (50kg) as compared to lifting lighter (20kg) for the past month. I'll measure my lbm again in two weeks. See how it has changed. I have another question. Would you say it is normal to lose lean body mass when on a cut despite setting the caloric deficit and protein intake correctly? It's my first time cutting properly. Have attempted it last year but reduced calories too drastically.

Some loss of muscle is inevitable during a cut; the entire 'cut' process involves forcing the body to do exactly opposite of what it's genetically-coded to do---shed metabolically 'expensive' tissue (muscle) and then use those 'saved' calories to insure survival. Building and maintaining muscle mass is pretty low on the body's list of priorities.


What we can do to minimize the loss of muscle is to run our calorie and macro intake as accurately as possible, not cut at an excessive deficit (usually, 20% below maintenance should be considered the biggest deficit to consider), keep cardio at the minimum (until it becomes a necessity, deep into the cut), and to continue weight training just as hard and heavy as we did when we were building the muscle in the first place.

It's all about mapping out a logical strategy, and then sticking with it patiently, and allow it to work without overt attempts on our part to "speed up" the process.

[semichaud]

Some loss of muscle is inevitable during a cut; the entire 'cut' process involves forcing the body to do exactly opposite of what it's genetically-coded to do---shed metabolically 'expensive' tissue (muscle) and then use those 'saved' calories to insure survival. Building and maintaining muscle mass is pretty low on the body's list of priorities.


What we can do to minimize the loss of muscle is to run our calorie and macro intake as accurately as possible, not cut at an excessive deficit (usually, 20% below maintenance should be considered the biggest deficit to consider), keep cardio at the minimum (until it becomes a necessity, deep into the cut), and to continue weight training just as hard and heavy as we did when we were building the muscle in the first place.

It's all about mapping out a logical strategy, and then sticking with it patiently, and allow it to work without overt attempts on our part to "speed up" the process.

Yes, unfortunately I have learned that the hard way in my attempt to cut last year. This time I have everything done properly. Calculated maintenance calories using harris benedict formula (factoring height, age, weight, level of activity) and reduced by 20%. Measured total body weight, body fat using skinfold calipers, deducted lbm which determines my protein intake (1g/lbs of lbm). Weighing everything with my electronic scale before it goes into my mouth. Weighing myself every week and readjusting caloric intake as the weight drops to make sure that rate of fat loss stays the same. When I reach 8% body fat I should reach the maximum caloric deficit which my body can handle before it starts turning on the muscles (31 kcal per lb of fat per day). Made an Excel sheet to calculate all this. Should be losing about 1 lb per week and 0.5 body fat % per week. Started this since 5 weeks ago and planning to keep it until I reach 7% body fat which will be in about 4 months. In total It would have taken me 5.5 months to go from 20% body fat to 7% at this rate. I have not noticed any loss in strength after 5 weeks.

[IDrinkBloodLOL]

Didn't fully read, but honestly it's probably because getting stronger is more important to getting jacked than anything internet fitness vermin like to chatter about, and if you managed to get stronger it doesn't matter what internet people think about how you did it.

[Jasonk282]

what do you mean 'without form"?

[semichaud]

what do you mean 'without form"?

For example when doing bicep curls with 50kg i'm standing but bent because i can't lift 50kg and stand straight, but i do keep form in the sense that i do not use momentum to lift the weight up and down when doing reps. i don't know if you can understand what i mean, i'm french

[semichaud]

Didn't fully read, but honestly it's probably because getting stronger is more important to getting jacked than anything internet fitness vermin like to chatter about, and if you managed to get stronger it doesn't matter what internet people think about how you did it.

true true

[Jasonk282]

For example when doing bicep curls with 50kg i'm standing but bent because i can't lift 50kg and stand straight, but i do keep form in the sense that i do not use momentum to lift the weight up and down when doing reps. i don't know if you can understand what i mean, i'm french

you can't hold 50kg while standing upright? You might have more issues to worry about it that's the case.

[GravityLee]

Two things

One you got a huge pump apparently on that last workout. Huge pumps like that can last a couple days for me. I think eating a lot of carbs makes me look fuller as well

Two you might not be going to true failure. Assuming your body is healthy, you dont have an injury, you are eating adequate nutrition, true failure is when someone could be holding a gun to your head saying give me one more rep and you literally can't. I have heard time and again advanced pro bodybuilders saying I don't count my reps. This is because they have the mental fortitude to go to true failure over and over. Personally I have to count my reps to make sure I am progressing.

[godsamurai]

Hi.

Been lifting since 2004. Kept increasing the load (how heavy I was lifting) but never bothered going to failure or keeping form. During that time I gained quite a bit of muscle. Then I started doing more research in bodybuilding and how to build more muscle. Read about how you need to lift about 60% of your 1 rep max and go to failure on every set for about 4 sets. Started lifting lighter weights last month (going to failure on each set and keeping momentum close to zero) because I started dieting (20% caloric deficit, 1g protein/lb of lbm) and thought the load would be too much and that it is pointless to lift heavy. Measured lbm last week and lost 6 lbs of lbm and was looking smaller and weaker. Now I started lifting heavy without form, about 50kg per arm for example, since two days ago, and I can see a visible difference. I look bigger and clothes feel tighter even though I am still dieting and in caloric deficit and eating slightly less protein than before (160g/day). How can you explain that?

Thanks

did you put your clothes in the drier before wearing it? I always feel big when my clothes are tight after taking them out from drier. 2 days of gain is only achievable by Mike Chang's magic red juice.

you can't hold 50kg while standing upright? You might have more issues to worry about it that's the case.

I think he meant he can't keep the strict form while lifting 110pds (=50kg). I think he can stand upright with 110pds, but since he can't curl with 110pd dumbell, he bents his body and starts curling them. His elbow is probably swinging otherwise there is no way he can do 110pd curling each hand.

[skinny2buff6]

Push yourself to failure with poor form and you can make great gains.

Push yourself to failure with good form and you make better gains.


Make sense?

All about failure and reducing your risk of injury. If you swing the weight up you are putting a lot of pressure on your lower back, and could easily hurt the vertebrae in your neck as well.

[semichaud]

you can't hold 50kg while standing upright? You might have more issues to worry about it that's the case.

can stand with 50KG (110 lbs) upright but can't curl upright. But when curling I keep the momentum at a minimum and curl slowly on the way up and down, slowly and to failure. My elbow is not swinging though.

[semichaud]

Two things

One you got a huge pump apparently on that last workout. Huge pumps like that can last a couple days for me. I think eating a lot of carbs makes me look fuller as well

Two you might not be going to true failure. Assuming your body is healthy, you dont have an injury, you are eating adequate nutrition, true failure is when someone could be holding a gun to your head saying give me one more rep and you literally can't. I have heard time and again advanced pro bodybuilders saying I don't count my reps. This is because they have the mental fortitude to go to true failure over and over. Personally I have to count my reps to make sure I am progressing.

I count my reps too and make sure that I exceed the last count by at least one rep. At the end of each set my muscles are shaking and most often I cannot complete the last rep. Then I rest for one day and work different muscle group the next. I workout 1/2 days (3-4 days/week)

[semichaud]

did you put your clothes in the drier before wearing it? I always feel big when my clothes are tight after taking them out from drier. 2 days of gain is only achievable by Mike Chang's magic red juice.



I think he meant he can't keep the strict form while lifting 110pds (=50kg). I think he can stand upright with 110pds, but since he can't curl with 110pd dumbell, he bents his body and starts curling them. His elbow is probably swinging otherwise there is no way he can do 110pd curling each hand.

Yes that's it I can stand with 50KG (110 lbs) upright but can't curl upright. But when curling I keep the momentum at a minimum and curl slowly on the way up and down, slowly and to failure. My elbow is not swinging though.

[semichaud]

Push yourself to failure with poor form and you can make great gains.

Push yourself to failure with good form and you make better gains.


Make sense?

All about failure and reducing your risk of injury. If you swing the weight up you are putting a lot of pressure on your lower back, and could easily hurt the vertebrae in your neck as well.

Yes I totally agree. Make sense to me. That's why since 2004 I've been increasing how heavy I was lifting but I never bothered to keep strict form, and I got bigger as compared to before. Only last month I started cutting and reduced the weights because I kept seeing advice on the net from bodybuilders saying you don't need to lift heavy to build or maintain muscle. So I reduced how heavy I was lifting thinking it would be easier for me when cutting but I lost 6lbs of lbm over 1 month. In a week or two I'm measuring lbm again so i'll know for sure whether I have gained lbm or whether it has stayed the same after lifting heavy again.

[NZninja101]

you need to lift about 60% of your 1 rep max and go to failure on every set for about 4 sets.

Do you really, though?

Started lifting lighter weights last month (going to failure on each set and keeping momentum close to zero) because I started dieting (20% caloric deficit, 1g protein/lb of lbm) and thought the load would be too much and that it is pointless to lift heavy. Measured lbm last week and lost 6 lbs of lbm and was looking smaller and weaker.

Well you were in a 20 percent caloric deficit. However you've miscalculated your muscle loss. You haven't lost 6lb of muscle in 3 weeks, even though you're doing the silly thing of basing your entire routine on light reps to failure. It will be less.

Now I started lifting heavy without form, about 50kg per arm for example, since two days ago, and I can see a visible difference. I look bigger and clothes feel tighter even though I am still dieting and in caloric deficit and eating slightly less protein than before (160g/day). How can you explain that?

Thanks

Its mainly in your head. The only 2 day change you could possibly notice would be a result of water weight in your muscles. Your body composition hasn't really changed.

[semichaud]

Do you really, though?




Well you were in a 20 percent caloric deficit. However you've miscalculated your muscle loss. You haven't lost 6lb of muscle in 3 weeks, even though you're doing the silly thing of basing your entire routine on light reps to failure. It will be less.





Its mainly in your head. The only 2 day change you could possibly notice would be a result of water weight in your muscles. Your body composition hasn't really changed.

I just measure my lbm today and it is at 163 lbs. Which is about the same as it was last week when I was lifting lighter. To be honest I think you are right about all the above. However, I still can't explain why when I look in the mirror the muscles appear bigger and fuller than when I was lifting 77 lbs less.

When you say "You haven't lost 6lb of muscle in 3 weeks, even though you're doing the silly thing of basing your entire routine on light reps to failure." I think you are right too. Because although my FFMI has gone from 24 to 23 and my lbm has gone from 170 to 162 (it was at 170 lbs when I started the cut on 8th May, I have kept track of all those numbers in my excel sheet) the fact that I can lift heavy and still feel strong might mean that indeed I must have not have lost 6 lbs of muscle. Another thing, should my entire routine be mixing both light and heavy? I think yes but I have seen documentaries like I want to look like that guy, where the entire routine he's lifting as heavy as possible so as to perform 6 reps to failure per set, and he still got ripped and weighed at the top of his weight class at contest. So why bother mixing light and heavy?

Anyway, thanks again for all the replies.

[semichaud]

Guys i'm really sorry to say but I prefer to lift as heavy as I can without swinging the weight even if the workout is closer to power lifting than it is to bodybuilding. I've just finished working out and I definitely look bigger than when I was working out to failure for longer with lighter weights and proper form. Yesterday I met a friend who had not seen me for 3 weeks and the first he said was "holy ****!". I know it goes against what i have read about bodybuilding but my personal experience shows that lifting heavy with less form makes me bigger. Sorry guys but it's one thing to read about how you should workout and how much you should lift and another to experience that this might not entirely be true.

In the past lifting heavier and heavier is what has made me bigger than other friends who are also bodybuilding. When I started lifting and lifted heavy and got bigger than friends who had been lifting for longer than I had. I started to lift lighter because of all the "you don't need to lift heavy to build muscle" stuff I had been reading on bodybuilding forums and articles. But experience shows you do need to lift heavy.

Feel free to comment guys on what has worked best for you.

[TBU720]

IMO best bodybuilding for a natural (for most people) is lifting heavy heavy weight, low reps. No matter if you are cutting or bulking.

[NZninja101]

I just measure my lbm today and it is at 163 lbs. Which is about the same as it was last week when I was lifting lighter. To be honest I think you are right about all the above. However, I still can't explain why when I look in the mirror the muscles appear bigger and fuller than when I was lifting 77 lbs less.

This could be totally wrong but I have a theory. Your high rep failure training depleted glycogen from your muscles, and since you're both relatively new to it, and in a caloric deficit, you looked depleted.

When you say "You haven't lost 6lb of muscle in 3 weeks, even though you're doing the silly thing of basing your entire routine on light reps to failure." I think you are right too. Because although my FFMI has gone from 24 to 23 and my lbm has gone from 170 to 162 (it was at 170 lbs when I started the cut on 8th May, I have kept track of all those numbers in my excel sheet) the fact that I can lift heavy and still feel strong might mean that indeed I must have not have lost 6 lbs of muscle. Another thing, should my entire routine be mixing both light and heavy?

Yes. It's a fantastic intelligent productive way to train.

I think yes but I have seen documentaries like I want to look like that guy, where the entire routine he's lifting as heavy as possible so as to perform 6 reps to failure per set, and he still got ripped and weighed at the top of his weight class at contest. So why bother mixing light and heavy?

Muscle fibers respond well to a mix of low and high reps. Some people say that the only difference between low reps and high reps is that high reps offers more volume, and there's no hypertrophy benefit from the extended set where you do more reps, as its simply overall volume, (which could also be done via more sets of low rep work) that dictates muscle gains. I wouldn't entirely agree with that, but setting that aside, from a practicality standpoint, its safer and easier to do certain exercises for higher reps. Pushdowns, shoulder raise exercises, flys... Mainly isolation movements where using low reps would potentially increase risk of injury or prevent one from feeling the exercise in their target muscle as well as they could.

Guys i'm really sorry to say but I prefer to lift as heavy as I can without swinging the weight even if the workout is closer to power lifting than it is to bodybuilding. I've just finished working out and I definitely look bigger than when I was working out to failure for longer with lighter weights and proper form. Yesterday I met a friend who had not seen me for 3 weeks and the first he said was "holy ****!". I know it goes against what i have read about bodybuilding but my personal experience shows that lifting heavy with less form makes me bigger. Sorry guys but it's one thing to read about how you should workout and how much you should lift and another to experience that this might not entirely be true.

In the past lifting heavier and heavier is what has made me bigger than other friends who are also bodybuilding. When I started lifting and lifted heavy and got bigger than friends who had been lifting for longer than I had. I started to lift lighter because of all the "you don't need to lift heavy to build muscle" stuff I had been reading on bodybuilding forums and articles. But experience shows you do need to lift heavy.

Feel free to comment guys on what has worked best for you.

That's good.


What's your actual routine? Structure? Exercises, reps, sets, frequency?

IMO best bodybuilding for a natural (for most people) is lifting heavy heavy weight, low reps. No matter if you are cutting or bulking.

Yes. It's a general standard for most compound lifts that people would do well to adhere to.

[semichaud]

This could be totally wrong but I have a theory. Your high rep failure training depleted glycogen from your muscles, and since you're both relatively new to it, and in a caloric deficit, you looked depleted.



Yes. It's a fantastic intelligent productive way to train.





Muscle fibers respond well to a mix of low and high reps. Some people say that the only difference between low reps and high reps is that high reps offers more volume, and there's no hypertrophy benefit from the extended set where you do more reps, as its simply overall volume, (which could also be done via more sets of low rep work) that dictates muscle gains. I wouldn't entirely agree with that, but setting that aside, from a practicality standpoint, its safer and easier to do certain exercises for higher reps. Pushdowns, shoulder raise exercises, flys... Mainly isolation movements where using low reps would potentially increase risk of injury or prevent one from feeling the exercise in their target muscle as well as they could.




That's good.


What's your actual routine? Structure? Exercises, reps, sets, frequency?





Yes. It's a general standard for most compound lifts that people would do well to adhere to.

Thank you so much for your detailed comments. It's very helpful in trying to understand what would be the best way to preserve muscle during my cut. Indeed, I will be lifting heavy as my body seems to be reacting better to it. For some exercises like you say it would be better to lift lighter to avoid injury.

In regards to my routine, I workout 1 day every 2 days. I split a full body workout into 2, which means per week I do 2 full body workouts. Worked out yesterday and I feel sore. I don't target specific muscles for each day. I work out to failure and now with lower reps and heavier weights. I don't do cardio. I've been cutting at 20% caloric deficit since 8th of May. Started at 20% body fat and I'm now at 15.8% as of yesterday. I misjudged my activity level in the beginning and lost too much weight too quickly. Since last week I have factored in my proper level of activity and now am losing weight (prefer to say body fat%) at a more steady rate of 0.5 bf% per week. I am readjusting the caloric intake every week after weighing myself and using skinfold calipers to measure bf%, and calculate lbm.