The end of Affirmiative Action

[philipadingra]

I'd like a view on what misc think regarding this article.

Don't be lazy and read the whole thing

What is your take on affirmative Action? btw I'm black and in school (scholarship though) but I think it is much bueno lol

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...606356770.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...ion-ban-n86626

[rootcon]

stupid paywall site..

Walter Williams has it 100% correct

The University of California, Berkeley’s affirmative action program
forblacks captures the essence of a zero-sum game. Blacks are admit-
ted with considerably loweraverage SAT scores (952) than the typical
white (1232) and Asian student (1254) (Sowell 1993: 144). Between
UCLA and UC Berkeley, more than 2,000 white and Asian straight
A students are turned away in order to provide spaces for black and
Hispanic students (Lynch 1989: 163). The admissions gains by blacks
are exactly matched by admissions losses by white and Asian students.
Thus, any preferential treatment program results in a zero-sum game
almost by definition.
More generally, government allocation of resources is a zero-sum
game primarily because government has no resources of its very own.
When government gives some citizens food stamps, crop subsidies,
or disaster relief payments, the recipients of the largesse gain. Losers
are identified by asking: where does government acquire the resources
to confer the largesse? In order for government to give to some
citizens, it must through intimidation, threats, and coercion take from
other citizens. Those who lose the rights to their earnings, to finance
government largesse, are the losers.
Government-mandated racial preferential treatment programs pro-
duce a similar result. When government creates a special advantage
for one ethnic group, it necessarily comes at the expense of other
ethnic groups for whom government simultaneously creates a special
disadvantage in the form of reduced alternatives. If a college or
employer has X amount of positions, and R of them have been set
aside for blacks or some other group, that necessarily means there
are (IC —
R) fewer positions for which other ethnic groups might
compete. At a time when there were restrictions against blacks, that
operated in favor of whites, those restrictions translated into a reduced
opportunity set for blacks. It is a zero-sum game independent of the
race or ethnicity ofthe winners and losers.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

[ruckin]

Affirmative action is fuking stupid

[philipadingra]

Edit: for non wsj subscribers

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...ion-ban-n86626

[jthm]

Please god let this happen.

[de_barathrum]

didn't read the article, just skimmed it, but it looks like the author is making a case for a zero sum game argument in regards to affirmative action. the author is correct if the game is only played one period, but in reality it isn't. this is a game that will continue indefinitely into the future and so we have to take into account the costs of inequality over time. certain minority groups in this country were heavily discriminated against in the past and as a result they do not have the same type of opportunities that whites have due to not developing the same type of cultural infrastructure as whites, (i.e. cultural emphasis placed on education, entrepreneurship, etc.) so many minorities are truly at a disadvantage from birth, just because of the environment they are brought up in.

over time this persistent inequality between racial groups creates distinct cultures which can lead to some seriously negative outcomes, given the overall tendency for people not to deviate from the cultural group they were brought up in, not to mention the loss of human capital from people who never reach their full potential due to the constraints of their cultural group.

in principle, i don't like the idea of affirmative action, but i can't really think of a less painful way to deal with this inequality. yes, some whites/asians are going to get shafted due to admitting blacks and hispanics with lower SAT scores, but education is the single best way to alleviate this inequality across racial groups in society, and to assimilate minorities into the greater part of society as a whole.

whether you support or are against affirmative action, using the idea of a single period zero sum game to describe the effects of affirmative action, which is very common, is just plain wrong. you have to take into account the long term effects of this policy on all groups involved.

[EnderG60]

Affirmative action is in it self racist. Everyone should be held to the same standards, period.

[HIITforGains]

didn't read the article, just skimmed it, but it looks like the author is making a case for a zero sum game argument in regards to affirmative action. the author is correct if the game is only played one period, but in reality it isn't. this is a game that will continue indefinitely into the future and so we have to take into account the costs of inequality over time. certain minority groups in this country were heavily discriminated against in the past and as a result they do not have the same type of opportunities that whites have due to not developing the same type of cultural infrastructure as whites, (i.e. cultural emphasis placed on education, entrepreneurship, etc.) so many minorities are truly at a disadvantage from birth, just because of the environment they are brought up in.

over time this persistent inequality between racial groups creates distinct cultures which can lead to some seriously negative outcomes, given the overall tendency for people not to deviate from the cultural group they were brought up in, not to mention the loss of human capital from people who never reach their full potential due to the constraints of their cultural group.

in principle, i don't like the idea of affirmative action, but i can't really think of a less painful way to deal with this inequality. yes, some whites/asians are going to get shafted due to admitting blacks and hispanics with lower SAT scores, but education is the single best way to alleviate this inequality across racial groups in society, and to assimilate minorities into the greater part of society as a whole.

whether you support or are against affirmative action, using the idea of a single period zero sum game to describe the effects of affirmative action, which is very common, is just plain wrong. you have to take into account the long term effects of this policy on all groups involved.

Its stupid to class anyone by race. Half of the affirmative action spots in med schools are used up by black kids from middle/upper-middle class and 1st/2nd gen african immigrants.

Want equality? base it on socio-economic classes, not race. A white kid from the hood is gonna get less help than a black kid with doctor parents. Using race to give one something is by definition racist.

[AhDo]

didn't read the article, just skimmed it, but it looks like the author is making a case for a zero sum game argument in regards to affirmative action. the author is correct if the game is only played one period, but in reality it isn't. this is a game that will continue indefinitely into the future and so we have to take into account the costs of inequality over time. certain minority groups in this country were heavily discriminated against in the past and as a result they do not have the same type of opportunities that whites have due to not developing the same type of cultural infrastructure as whites, (i.e. cultural emphasis placed on education, entrepreneurship, etc.) so many minorities are truly at a disadvantage from birth, just because of the environment they are brought up in.

over time this persistent inequality between racial groups creates distinct cultures which can lead to some seriously negative outcomes, given the overall tendency for people not to deviate from the cultural group they were brought up in, not to mention the loss of human capital from people who never reach their full potential due to the constraints of their cultural group.

in principle, i don't like the idea of affirmative action, but i can't really think of a less painful way to deal with this inequality. yes, some whites/asians are going to get shafted due to admitting blacks and hispanics with lower SAT scores, but education is the single best way to alleviate this inequality across racial groups in society, and to assimilate minorities into the greater part of society as a whole.

whether you support or are against affirmative action, using the idea of a single period zero sum game to describe the effects of affirmative action, which is very common, is just plain wrong. you have to take into account the long term effects of this policy on all groups involved.

Also take into account that the Hispanic and Black students who displace the Asian and white students end up doing worse at the school and have a higher drop out rate. It would actually be for their own good if they went into a university where they belong and not to a university where they are incapable of keeping up with the other students. The drop out rate for blacks decreased by a HUGE percent when California banned affirmative action. In the end, affirmative action hurts the under performing minorities by putting them in a school that is too difficult for them and hurts society as a whole because the students who dropped out are displacing students who could have done well and gone on to become doctors/lawyers/engineers/etc.



This is just the start of Asian invasion.

[de_barathrum]

Its a stupid point to class anyone by race. Half of the affirmative action spots in med school application are used up by black kids from middle/upper middle or straight up 1st/2nd gen african immigrants. What about the trailer park white people or asian immigrants?

Want equality? base it on socio-economic classes, not phucking race. A white kid from the hood is gonna get less help than a black kid with doctor parents. and using race to give one something is by definition racist.

it may be stupid, but it's practical. it's alot easier to lie about your socio-economic class than it is about your race. and yes, affirmative action is not fair, but i think in the long run it is more "fair" than the alternative.

although i am sure there are better alternatives to affirmative action, i'm just not very well versed on the subject. i'm just stating my opinion from what i've observed.

[de_barathrum]

Also take into account that the Hispanic and Black students who displace the Asian and white students end up doing worse and having a higher drop out rate. It would actually be for their own good if they went into a university where they belong and not to a university where they are incapable of keeping up with the other students. The drop out rate for blacks decreased by a HUGE percent when California banned affirmative action. In the end, affirmative action hurts the under performing minorities by putting them in a school that is too difficult for them and hurts society as a whole because the students who dropped out are displacing students who could have done well and gone on to become doctors/lawyers/engineers/etc.

i can see that point, but i would say two things in response. the first is that as long as a certain proportion of blacks/hispanics are succeeding at a higher level and moving up the socio-economic ladder, then the program has acheived its purpose. the second point is that we don't necessarily have a counterfactual for how the displaced students may have done. it's not guaranteed that their drop out rate is going to be vastly better than the blacks or the hispanics that took their place, since they are likely the students who are on the margin of being admitted or not in the first place.

[philipadingra]

So far some good points have been made mainly:

Based affirmative action on socio-economic status.

What else do you guys think?

[HIITforGains]

it may be stupid, but it's practical. it's alot easier to lie about your socio-economic class than it is about your race. and yes, affirmative action is not fair, but i think in the long run it is more "fair" than the alternative.

although i am sure there are better alternatives to affirmative action, i'm just not very well versed on the subject. i'm just stating my opinion from what i've observed.

actually its not. Canada has tons of programs allocated to poor income areas where they'll check against your assets and tax filings. 90% accurate and helps everybody who's disadvantaged vs giving a few kids from rich families a pass due to skin colour.

i can see that point, but i would say two things in response. the first is that as long as a certain proportion of blacks/hispanics are succeeding at a higher level and moving up the socio-economic ladder, then the program has acheived its purpose. the second point is that we don't necessarily have a counterfactual for how the displaced students may have done. it's not guaranteed that their drop out rate is going to be vastly better than the blacks or the hispanics that took their place, since they are likely the students who are on the margin of being admitted or not in the first place.

a) some minorties may succeed AT a great cost to efficiency.
b) theres info about performance/dropout at colleges that dropped affirmative action. look it up.

ultimately, my point is, give every poor person a chance. thats the fair way and if minorities are disproportionately disadvantaged, they'll get a chance. the black kids from suburbia are stealing a.a. spots from black kids from the hood too, if you wanna go just off race.

[phikappa]

Obama gon be pissed.

[SenorMachoPepe]

why stop there? they should bring back racial segregation.

[MrNippers]

why stop there? they should bring back racial segregation.

Don't go full potato so early in the morning please.

[oumoklaklak]

The only form of affirmative action that should exist is one where economically disadvantaged students are given scholarships more easily to hopefully compensate for income disparities. A person's bank account shouldn't be such a powerful deciding factor in if he or she can get a good education.

[msayson]

Strong independent black women hate him.

[stuntinonjos]

Time to break the news to those crying kids in Chicago. No opportunities to better yourself, young sir. We have an Asian kid that wants to become a doctor. Have fun selling wacky dope.

[DonVonDuck]

Affirmative action is in it self racist. Everyone should be held to the same standards, period.

Strong this. Giving a black man an opportunity over a more qualified Asian is the definition of racism. Discrimination due to one's race?? Hard work is hard work. Affirmative action is a load of crap. It really needs to end if we ever want true equality.

[de_barathrum]

actually its not. Canada has tons of programs allocated to poor income areas where they'll check against your assets and tax filings. 90% accurate and helps everybody who's disadvantaged vs giving a few kids from rich families a pass due to skin colour.

that might work ok in canada, but in the U.S. i think it would be a little more difficult. i doubt schools would want to justify using the resources to go over tax forms and assets for their applicants so that would leave it a government program... which i can't really see a lot of people getting on board with.

a) some minorties may succeed AT a great cost to efficiency.
b) theres info about performance at places that dropped affirmative action. look it up.

ultimately, my point is, give everybody poor a chance. thats the fair way and if minorities are disproportionately disadvantaged, they'll get a chance. the black kid from suburbia is stealing a.a. spots from black kids from the hood too, if you wanna go just off race.

a) just how great at a cost to efficiency is speculative. i agree that there is some cost in the shot run, but i think in the long run it will even out. i don't have any numbers though, and i'm not sure what kinds of studies have been done on this.
b) i will do that at some point, should be worth looking into.

and i think what we all want, in principle at least, is for everyone to get a fair chance. that much we can agree on. the issue is always on how to go about it lol.

[joecam18]

Time to break the news to those crying kids in Chicago. No opportunities to better yourself, young sir. We have an Asian kid that wants to become a doctor. Have fun selling wacky dope.

Because if there's no affirmative action, no minority is ever going to be able to work hard and make a name for themselves ever again. Ok.

[nightwolf6423]

why stop there? they should bring back racial segregation.

negged

[ithinkim2pac]

Why should blacks or any race for that matter get special treatment here? This is America where there isn't one specific race that identifies of what America is. It's like saying "blacks aren't as good, we realize they aren't as good so we have to give them handouts just for them to become something of themselves". It makes us look like we can't stand on our own without a handout from the government. While in a lot of poverty areas with majority of black women on wel fare and living in government housing it's true but they choose to accept handouts. I don't and I say **** affirmative action. I'll get mine on my own and if I can't at least I'll be able to say I never had anything handed to me

[Conspiracybrah]

anyone who supports any kind of affirmative action is a racist, sexist ******* who needs to check his test levels

[sliceofbread]

Its stupid to class anyone by race. Half of the affirmative action spots in med schools are used up by black kids from middle/upper-middle class and 1st/2nd gen african immigrants.

Want equality? base it on socio-economic classes, not race. A white kid from the hood is gonna get less help than a black kid with doctor parents. Using race to give one something is by definition racist.

Affirmative action in medical school is more for correcting racial disparities in medical care and less for addressing applicants of different socio-economic background

[philipadingra]

Just a quick point:

How about the economically disadvantages kids who go to mediocre middle and high school, with mediocre teachers and lack of a support system through their education? How can these kids ever compete against others who had much more structured and balanced education?

Is a shift towards bettering the overall American education even a topic here?

Affirmative action is all about competition in one case or another. When everyone is not starting on the same ground as others, could you agree with this policy?

Race is unfortunately an issue as many blacks do not have access to a quality education. I came from Africa to the states when I was 12. I tried to enroll in high school but was denied due to my age. I took a placement test and placed into the high school. Funny thing though, the placement test was so easy. My education was far more superior (in private french school in Africa) then it was in the states.

[StateIron]

Affirmative action put Obama in office.

[HIITforGains]

that might work ok in canada, but in the U.S. i think it would be a little more difficult. i doubt schools would want to justify using the resources to go over tax forms and assets for their applicants so that would leave it a government program... which i can't really see a lot of people getting on board with.




a) just how great at a cost to efficiency is speculative. i agree that there is some cost in the shot run, but i think in the long run it will even out. i don't have any numbers though, and i'm not sure what kinds of studies have been done on this.
b) i will do that at some point, should be worth looking into.

and i think what we all want, in principle at least, is for everyone to get a fair chance. that much we can agree on. the issue is always on how to go about it lol.

State colleges can gather data from their local police departments to see where the poor-income/highcrime areas are and allocate a.a spots to residents of those area. just need the city police departments fax their one page crime rate, they have that data on hand.

if a kid checks off 'disadvantaged', just look up their neighbourhood, highschool's ranking, and parents income. super accurate and uses very little resources.

[ocill88]

Affirmative action is in it self racist. Everyone should be held to the same standards, period.

You do realize in this country white people have had Affirmative action since the start of this nation; now that's racist . Smh at you're ignorance