Conditioning or size more importnat

[FAN0FdaSport]

A lot of bbers have more bones and shadows than phil, but overall he beats everyone when it comes to full round muscle bellies with separation and condition

You know the things that actually matter

[RoroCwalker]

but how do you explain that out of Wo1f , Ka1 and Heath @ the AC Europe he was the smallest and least conditioned on stage, its not a case of butthurt, its a case of understanding how it was possible for a man who was 3 weeks out to win over better athletes on the day. Even you must see there is something not right about that result????????

TEAM FAIR JUDGING

butthurt = strongly negative or overemotional response to a outcome, gesture, saying, social situation for a long period of time. Studies have reported butthurt has effected some by 20+ years. Very common in all sports.

YOU rommy fall much closer to...

Delusional: Seeing everything in potatoes.

Agreed with Rommy, people have to understand that it's a comparison between 2 physiques.
As soon as we critic Phil's physique, it's considered hating/butthurt, which is, IMO, a very bad and disrespectful behaviour.

As I've said countless times, we each give our points, if we disagree, then so be it, let's agree to disagree, but ignoring everything that is being said and jumping to the "hating" conclusions and making a mockery
out of someone's opinion and disrespecting it, is simply not cool.

Ramy has more of an X-frame than Heath, but he is NOT more complete. Every single muscle on Phil is developed. Ramy still has areas to work on (and of course conditioning).

It's also flawed to look at conditioning vs size by simply going "oh look, a more conditioned but smaller guy beat a bigger but softer guy"

It matters *how much* more conditioned vs *how much* more size. Kai was bigger than Phil, but Phil held his own in size....and on the other hand, Phil's was noticeably sharper than Kai.

Imo, bodybuilding is about who has the best overall package (size, proportions, conditioning). I think the sport has shifted towards that and away from over-emphasizing size like it was doing for a few years, imo.

Anyone who saw video knows that Kai's gut was hanging out all over the place, especially during prejudging.

Please don't quote the whole set of pictures.

Exactly, it's a question of "how much" and IMO, the "how much" is TOO much when people like JoJ and Hide are beating guys like Cedric.

Bodybuilding is indeed about the "overall" package, hence why proportions/size/symmetry/shape/structure should not be overshadowed by conditioning alone.

A lot of bbers have more bones and shadows than phil, but overall he beats everyone when it comes to full round muscle bellies with separation and condition

You know the things that actually matter

What about things that actually matter and were the base of bodybuilding? Shape, structure, symmetry and size?

[FAN0FdaSport]

What about things that actually matter and were the base of bodybuilding? Shape, structure, symmetry and size?

yeah phil is pretty good at those

[RoroCwalker]

yeah phil is pretty good at those

But he still gets beat at them, don't you agree?

[FAN0FdaSport]

But he still gets beat at them, don't you agree?

[Big Slim DaDDy]

Uncalled for, really.

It's very called for. There is rationale debate and then there are times you see a post and you have to call someone out on it. Everyone sees it, only one person has to point it out.

Dennis came third because his conditioning was among his best ever showings. Kai was off and he placed 2nd. But..but I thought conditioning trumps everything??? Phil's physique is better than the other 2 athletes in the photo for more than conditioning. Whether you like it or want to draw vases and outlines to dispute your point or not. Your pro Kai bias is just as bad as your anti Phil bias. So everything to you is in extremes in pros/cons for either of them. Kai could show up next year carrying 35lbs of water, 7 torn muscles and a hernia and you'd still find rationale as to why he should win.

[Big Slim DaDDy]

But he still gets beat at them, don't you agree?

Arguably yes and no but it's irrelevent because bodybuilding and physiques are not judged based on descriptive words. Sometimes people will say "The judges are blind!" but they do not mean in the literal sense.

[RoroCwalker]

It's very called for. There is rationale debate and then there are times you see a post and you have to call someone out on it. Everyone sees it, only one person has to point it out.

Dennis came third because his conditioning was among his best ever showings. Kai was off and he placed 2nd. But..but I thought conditioning trumps everything??? Phil's physique is better than the other 2 athletes in the photo for more than conditioning. Whether you like it or want to draw vases and outlines to dispute your point or not. Your pro Kai bias is just as bad as your anti Phil bias. So everything to you is in extremes in pros/cons for either of them. Kai could show up next year carrying 35lbs of water, 7 torn muscles and a hernia and you'd still find rationale as to why he should win.

Exactly what I said in post #92, you'll just resort to the bias/hate argument instead of actually explaining things regarding the subject itself.

If your only counter-argument is "Phil is better, you're just biased", there's no point in continue debating. Ironically, what you're doing is even worse and more pronounced than bias..that's what I would call "fanboyism".

*Edit: Then again, the question you were never able to answer..how would you react if the roles were reversed and Kai was Mr.O? Would you just go with the flow and accept Kai being better than Phil or would you defend your personal view on things and try to explain why Phil is better?

Arguably yes and no but it's irrelevent because bodybuilding and physiques are not judged based on descriptive words. Sometimes people will say "The judges are blind!" but they do not mean in the literal sense.

Indeed, they aren't based on descriptive words, hence why you have to put them in context with pictures/footage and illustrations.

[Big Slim DaDDy]

If your only counter-argument is "Phil is better, you're just biased", there's no point in continue debating. Ironically, what you're doing is even worse and more pronounced than bias..that's what I would call "fanboyism".


s.

There doesn't need to be a big debate with counter arguments. Phil is better in the pics you provided. Even the most bias of Kai fans (except you) would concede that. You can make debates for 2012 comparisons, there is no argument for 2013. We could certainly have a multi page debate that would go nowhere but the pics you provided have been discussed on as has the contest multiple times in past threads since the 2013 Olympia, so why bother? Why do you want to have the exact same argument dozens of times repeatedly on a multiple time a month basis? It's been done. So when you take the chance to bring it up again, yes, It shows you are butthurt.

Getting called a fanboy by you is like getting called a troll by FullROM or gay by Richard Simmons.

[RoroCwalker]

There doesn't need to be a big debate with counter arguments. Phil is better in the pics you provided. Even the most bias of Kai fans (except you) would concede that. You can make debates for 2012 comparisons, there is no argument for 2013. We could certainly have a multi page debate that would go nowhere but the pics you provided have been discussed on as has the contest multiple times in past threads since the 2013 Olympia, so why bother? Why do you want to have the exact same argument dozens of times repeatedly on a multiple time a month basis? It's been done. So when you take the chance to bring it up again, yes, It shows you are butthurt.

Getting called a fanboy by you is like getting called a troll by FullROM or gay by Richard Simmons.

I don't think Phil is better in the pictures I've provided, why should I resign to my opinion and not point out how I see it? Why should I be pressured into being quiet? Would you do the same if Kai won? Would you defend Phil's position?

There are arguments for 2013, I've provided plenty, whether you agree with them or not.

This is a bodybuilding forum, expect discussions to be opened at any time.

Why do you feel the need to use the word "butthurt" to degrade the points I'm making? Why not simply accept the fact that people have different view on things, give out yours, I'll give out mine, we both agree or disagree, regardless, respect each other's points and leave it at that. Your so called "butthurt" could easily be replaced by disagreeing.

Since the topic of discussion is "Conditioning or size more importnat"(hehe), I thought that the 2013 Mr.O would fit, you're the one trying to provoke the whole Kai vs Phil debate.

Unfortunately, as you've proved me before, you cannot hold a decent and respectful debate, this will shortly turn out into a spam of sarcastic and degrading remarks, if so, I'd advice you to refrain from posting regarding the conversation we're having, for the sake of this thread's direction.

[flangmasterj]

[Big Slim DaDDy]

I don't think Phil is better in the pictures I've provided, why should I resign to my opinion and not point out how I see it? Why should I be pressured into being quiet? Would you do the same if Kai won? Would you defend Phil's position?

There are arguments for 2013, I've provided plenty, whether you agree with them or not.

Why do you feel the need to use the word "butthurt" to degrade the points I'm making? Why not simply accept the fact that people have different view on things, give out yours, I'll give out mine, we both agree or disagree, regardless, respect each other's points and leave it at that. Your so called "butthurt" could easily be replaced by disagreeing.

n.

If you scroll back a few..maybe hundred pages of this forum. Leading back to the 2013 O. If you read every thread. How many times do you think you and I have looked at those exact pics, or even similar pics, and had the exact same "debate" over who looks better and why? Why have the same discussion over again when both of us, and anyone involved in similar debates for that matter are going to say the exact same things we have every single time?

It's not your opinion that's butthurt, it's your reasoning behind expressing it. "hey guys while we're on the topic of conditioning vs size heres some pics demonstrating the only thing Phil has over Kai is conditioning..from the 2013 Mr.O. Where Kai should have won." If you honestly think the only reason Phil looks better in those pics is conditioning I'm going to scroll back a few months worth of pages and copy and paste old arguments I've made against that as opposed to writing the whole debate over again for the 12th billionth time. I'll just link you to old threads on the topic and you can read them. Saves everyone some time.


Errr..You thought the 2013 O would fit but I'm the one provoking Phil vs. Kai. Right. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[featureless]

Ever since I started following bodybuilding back in 1995, I've always read in magazines and been told conditioning for the most part wins shows.

I agree 100%. I look for the conditioning first and then I start breaking down the physiques. Only when one is clearly genetically superior to all other's does he still stand a chance of winning the show if he comes in noticeably less conditioned. I have seen this too at many shows but rarely at the elite level except where I suspect politcs is involved.

[TrinityPT3]

whatever suits the judges to place the athlete where he "should" be placed

That is actually the most honest answer in many cases.

[RoroCwalker]

If you scroll back a few..maybe hundred pages of this forum. Leading back to the 2013 O. If you read every thread. How many times do you think you and I have looked at those exact pics, or even similar pics, and had the exact same "debate" over who looks better and why? Why have the same discussion over again when both of us, and anyone involved in similar debates for that matter are going to say the exact same things we have every single time?

It's not your opinion that's butthurt, it's your reasoning behind expressing it. "hey guys while we're on the topic of conditioning vs size heres some pics demonstrating the only thing Phil has over Kai is conditioning..from the 2013 Mr.O. Where Kai should have won." If you honestly think the only reason Phil looks better in those pics is conditioning I'm going to scroll back a few months worth of pages and copy and paste old arguments I've made against that as opposed to writing the whole debate over again for the 12th billionth time. I'll just link you to old threads on the topic and you can read them. Saves everyone some time.


Errr..You thought the 2013 O would fit but I'm the one provoking Phil vs. Kai. Right. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

It's not put in the same context, more than one topic can be opened on a single show. Whether it leads to the same conclusion or same type of derived subject, that's up to those having the debate around it.

Exactly where the problem of "fanboyism" comes in, you simply won't accept that Phil is being critiqued, you want to interpret it like that.
I could also post pictures of the Dallas pro, that went on and on for a few weeks and was brought up from time to time, the answers and topics were relatively the same.

The Kuclo vs Essa fits very well in the thread, but it'll turn into "You're trying to stir things up with politics and judging inconsistency and bash on the winners, etc.", when in truth, these shows HAVE to be brought up at some point to justify people's arguments.

Some people use (not sure of the word) stationary arguments, they don't need interpretation, they relate to the aspects directly and so on but some others use arguments that have to be backed up by certain footage and illustrations.
Whether you interpret it as trying to hate, is not my problem. It's far from what I'm trying to do, the fact that you even relate to it as "butthurt" instead of critic(which I'm obviously doing), proves my point.

No, I thought the 2013 O would fit because as the title suggests, conditioning was more important than size at that very show. There's no need to try to twist my intentions to try and degrade the posts I'm making.

[x-trainer ben]

Just wondering what everyone thought about the way contests are currently judged. Well at least the bigger ones. It seems to me like conditioning, which is obviously very important, is being judged as THE most important factor.

It seems to me like mass, symmetry, proportion are not judged as importantly as they should.

Take last year's Mr. Olympia for example. Big Ramy was a monster stepping on that stage and definitely bigger than the champion, as was Kai. Yet in the eyes of the judges, Phil is the clear winner because he is more conditioned.

Yet if you break down the judging criteria, it is not so clear cut of a decision at all. Kai is bigger, which is a tick for him, as is Ramy.

Proportion wise, Ramy is more complete than Heath (big, wide shoulders, small waist) who is narrow and whose arms still dominate his physique, though he has done an amazing job balancing it out.

Phil also has a visible imbalance between his right and left arm, something that neither Kai nor Ramy really have as noticeably.

So how a bodybuilder who gets outweighed, outmassed and whose symmetry and proportions aren't better (regardless what you think, they aren't WAY better), gets picked as the clear winner each year is a mystery to me, unless conditioning is being judged as WAY more important then any of the other criteria.

Even if we call symmetry and proportions a tie between the three, you still have a guy who is getting outmassed winning because he is better conditioned and winning quite easily. So is condition more important than size. Well I believe they are as important, in which case, Phil would not be the clear winner over bodybuilders who outmass him while bringing inferior conditioning.

All this to say that I think the judging at the Olympia is a little skewed right now. Before Phil, we had Dorian, Ronnie and Jay, who were winning because they were super conditioned, but also because they were the most massive while being proportioned well. Conditioning while important, is not everything and should be judged in a more balanced manner with the other criteria.

I became a fan during the Haney era and conditioning was king(late 80's); but as Shawn Ray said the "mass monsters were dominant during the early 90's. During that time Dorian, Ronnie, and Jay ruled with mass and at times grainy conditioning. Now i see it as a hybrid with Phil winning at 250 ish and that 3D look which makes him stand out in a line up. (see page 2 of thread). Dexter's win did NOT return things to conditioning only.

[Big Slim DaDDy]

Exactly where the problem of "fanboyism" comes in, you simply won't accept that Phil is being critiqued, g.

You won't accept the fact that Kai lost last year. Pot calling the kettle black, broski.

[RoroCwalker]

You won't accept the fact that Kai lost last year. Pot calling the kettle black, broski.

I'm simply not agreeing with the physiques being rewarding, the physique I believe should have been rewarded, by pure coincidence was the one of a person named Kai.

Again, poor attempt at trying to twist things around.

[Big Slim DaDDy]

I'm simply not agreeing with the physiques being rewarding, the physique I believe should have been rewarded, by pure coincidence was the one of a person named Kai.

Again, poor attempt at trying to twist things around.

There needs to be a new word that combines butthurt and irony. Oh I know, from now on...all the toilets in the land shall be called JOHNS! Oops, wrong movie. From henceforth, all the ironic butthurts will be called ROROWALKERS!

[RoroCwalker]

^

Unfortunately, as you've proved me before, you cannot hold a decent and respectful debate, this will shortly turn out into a spam of sarcastic and degrading remarks, if so, I'd advice you to refrain from posting regarding the conversation we're having, for the sake of this thread's direction.

   

[Big Slim DaDDy]

For the sake of the direction that is Phil vs Kai that you want? That you turn every thread into?

[RoroCwalker]

For the sake of the direction that is Phil vs Kai that you want? That you turn every thread into?

Read the thread title, look beyond their names and think for a second.

[Big Slim DaDDy]

Read the thread title, look beyond their names and think for a second.

You may as well put this post into your sig so it's visible for every thread you post in.

[NVious]

You may as well put this post into your sig so it's visible for every thread you post in.

Olympia=ultimate standard for judging.

The past two have had some controversies, what is the problem with bringing it up?

Especially when bodybuilding's catchphrase seems to be: It's subjective. Thus ANYONE can really say ANYTHING and technically still be within this axiom.

[sedrik]

Olympia=ultimate standard for judging.

The past two have had some controversies, what is the problem with bringing it up?

Especially when bodybuilding's catchphrase seems to be: It's subjective. Thus ANYONE can really say ANYTHING and technically still be within this axiom.

It's not subjective though, you may prefer a particular physique but I think the title has gone to the right person every time. Besides 07.
Judging for the top spot has been consistent and has progressed with the progression of physiques.

[NVious]

It's not subjective though, you may prefer a particular physique but I think the title has gone to the right person every time. Besides 07.
Judging for the top spot has been consistent and has progressed with the progression of physiques.

It 100% IS subjective because there are no SET standards that are adhered to at ALL times (or even most times), it changes from show to show and placing to placing.

If there is a SET standard where factor XYZ is weighed THIS much amount and factor YXZ is weighed this much amount, feel free to point out the explicit rule.

Even in the scorecards, all you see is the placings, you don't see the individual judging pose by pose nor do you get any commentary as to WHY that pose was given to a competitor. There is zero transparency and within that, you don't even have any written standard that is supposed to be sought after.

[sedrik]

It 100% IS subjective because there are no SET standards that are adhered to at ALL times (or even most times), it changes from show to show and placing to placing.

If there is a SET standard where factor XYZ is weighed THIS much amount and factor YXZ is weighed this much amount, feel free to point out the explicit rule.

Even in the scorecards, all you see is the placings, you don't see the individual judging pose by pose nor do you get any commentary as to WHY that pose was given to a competitor. There is zero transparency and within that, you don't even have any written standard that is supposed to be sought after.

I was addressing the fact that I think the Mr.O title has gone to the right person every year except 2007. The other shows and placings are a mess, the judging process definitely is absolute dog ****.

[NVious]

I was addressing the fact that I think the Mr.O title has gone to the right person every year except 2007. The other shows and placings are a mess, the judging process definitely is absolute dog ****.

I don't think any of the years beyond 07 were horrible decisions by any means as far as STRICTLY the O title (because some of the other decisions def were horse ****), but the case can be made that they should've gone to others during certain years.

I think it's ridiculous for people to dismiss that because some of the years really were close enough and when you have as much leeway to interpret different things having more value than others as we do in bbing and how it's judged, is it really surprising that guys can say the people who finish 1-2 spots behind the winner should be placed ahead?

[RoroCwalker]

It's not subjective though, you may prefer a particular physique but I think the title has gone to the right person every time. Besides 07.
Judging for the top spot has been consistent and has progressed with the progression of physiques.

The consistency has been terrible.

Conditioning > Mass/etc.



Mass/etc. > Conditioning



Shape > everything





Then you have the conditioned line-up standing there;


Something unstoppable emerges ;

[RoroCwalker]

Then you have Beyeke and Willmore placing over Essa;





Then you have Essa placing 2 places above Beyeke, who was in the middle? Bannout. Evan wins it.