The efficacy of an X change in mininum wage is irrelevant, unless you are utilitarian. Which is some ****ed up anti-liberty economic theory.
What actually matters is that ends dont justify means. An arbitrary wage law removes liberty from both parties (employer and employee). Free men should be free to enter into a contract. You cannot reconcile minimum wage laws with liberty. They run counter to each other. A person has a right to his person and property, nothing more.
When you actually begin looking into the efficacy of minimum wage increases, you realize they do very little. The costs of goods and services increases, real wages stay the same, capital is incorrectly allocated and wasted. The minimum wage has gone up repeatedly over the past few decades. And yet real wages are the same. Clearly, you cannot legislate away poverty or create wealth by decree. Populists have been trying it for 1600 years. It hasn't ever worked.
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04-08-2014, 07:22 PM #61
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04-08-2014, 07:23 PM #62
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Because minimum wage is designed to raise a family off of, right? Funny how you mention economists, because every econ/business professor I've had were against any increase.
true story, my father met this guy when he was in college. Friedman gave a lecture at UCLA, and afterwards, shook hands with the students in the economics club(my dad being one of them)ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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04-08-2014, 07:24 PM #63
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04-08-2014, 07:25 PM #64
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04-08-2014, 07:26 PM #65
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Because only an idiot or a desperate person would work for them.
If wages were in a constant race to the bottom as your theory suggests, then there would be no disparities between pay in different industries. Why does tech pay their employees 120K+? Because wages are not only driven downwards by profit optimization, but driven upwards concurrently by profit optimization as firms seek to hire the best talent.
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04-08-2014, 07:28 PM #66I used to like Mitch Hedberg. I still do, but I used to too.
Roses Are Red, Violets Are Blue, おまえ は も しんでいる。
"she wants a man, not a fan"
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04-08-2014, 07:28 PM #67
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04-08-2014, 07:30 PM #68
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04-08-2014, 07:31 PM #69
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04-08-2014, 07:32 PM #70
lol. USA is not rich........It has buying authority. There is a big difference there. And because of that buying authority it gives the appearance as a rich nation. Brb the dollar is the world reserve currency. We own the world just based on our word alone.
Unemployment benefits are a good thing for the downtrodden. However, it needs to be regulated more than what is happening now. I think every tax payer would agree since they are experiencing first hand by watching their money be pissed away by the people buying groceries in front of them.
You want to see a rich nation? Go to UAE. Citizens do not work there. They get a stipend from the government because of the oil. they have people from india fly in and do most of the work for that country.Last edited by BuschBacon; 04-08-2014 at 07:37 PM.
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04-08-2014, 07:35 PM #71
-if the minimum wage is raised, alot of people will lose jobs, as alot of employers cannot afford to pay certain workers above the minimum wage, since they don't produce that much value.
-if the minimum wage is raised, and the company cannot for some reason fire their workers, the products that they produce will become more expensive for you and me, the consumers. Since many companies will lbe in this predicament, prices will rise all around, which will defeat the purpose of a minimum wage increase, since their now higher wage has less buying power than it had before. Which will lead for calls for a new minimum wage hike, and the cycle continues.......
-alot of minimum wage workers are people who are just starting out, and teenagers getting working experience during the summer. these opportunities go away as the minimum wage increases.
These are all reasons why the minimum wage should not exist.
But the way, there are no such thing as "classes" in america. This is not the middle ages. Some people have more money then others, but we all have the same rights.
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04-08-2014, 07:36 PM #72
I'm iffy on this subject, but do you guys realize... back in the day, minimum wage was a reasonable amount for people to get by. As the decades went on, minimum wage was not raised to keep up with the rising costs of everything else, and has fell tremendously behind. It should have kept going up accordingly. PERIOD. Now that it's fallen so far behind, the rich have convinced everyone that it is a horrible idea to raise it now and brainwashing everyone. Unless you've been living in an igloo in Antarctica, you should know prices are steadily going up without any wages being raised. This further separates the lower and upper class, just as the filthy rich would like in order to further enhance their profits, status, and power.
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04-08-2014, 07:38 PM #73
Econ degree here. Short answer: A company has a certain amount of money they are going to spend on labor. If minimum wage is increased by say 20%, that company isn't just going to start spending 20% more on labor. They are going to do two things. They are going to cut employee hours, lay people off, and they are going to increase their prices. Neither of which are good for the economy.
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04-08-2014, 07:41 PM #74
There certainly are "classes". You are the only one I've ever seen to even suggest that there isn't. Let's be real, we all supposedly have the same rights, but money definitely buys them to a higher extent. You're poor and potentially facing jail time? Here, have this crappy lawyer that won't help you. You're rich and you murdered 5 people? Well you have a prestigious lawyer that maximized your rights, is in good with the judge, and got off without a slap on the wrist.
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04-08-2014, 07:42 PM #75
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We should get away from paying people per hour or per year and go to merit based pay. You get paid on the quality and timeliness you do a task. The more you do, the more you get paid, the less you do the less you get paid. I can't count how many times I have been given poor service by hourly employees. There is no incentive and if we increase the minimum wage we just lessen it more.
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04-08-2014, 07:43 PM #76
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04-08-2014, 07:44 PM #77
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Actually, probably like yourself, he had no idea who Friedman was when he met him. But my father came to this country as an immigrant when he was 10. He studied hard, went to UCLA, served in the USAF, and now works in finance. Within one generation, our family climbed the socioeconomic ladder and pays more in taxes than what the majority of Americans generate in a year.
Well, I suppose that's something to consider, but you alluded to the idea that we should leave it to the economists to figure it out. All the economists I've met are fiscally conservative, and I would think there's a reason as to why that's the case.
Governments have no morality, and the free market is as fair/moral as it gets. I don't know of any feasible system that is as compassionate as true capitalism.
god forbid people who mooch off tax payers have cars without rims.ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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04-08-2014, 07:45 PM #78
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04-08-2014, 07:47 PM #79
There are good public defense attorneys, and bad lawyers who get paid alot. You are not doomed just because you cannot afford your own attorney.
The vast majority of the time, anyone who murders 5 people will get life in prison, or the death penalty. I am sure that you can bring me examples of when this is not the case, but those are exceptions to the rule, not what usually happens.
Money does buy a more comfortable life, but there is no right to a comfortable life. The only rights that people in the USA are entitles to are: life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and whatever is listed in the bill of rights. But rich and poor are equally entitled to those rights. The rich cannot buy better versions of them.
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04-08-2014, 07:51 PM #80
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04-08-2014, 07:53 PM #81
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04-08-2014, 07:57 PM #82
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04-08-2014, 07:57 PM #83
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04-08-2014, 07:58 PM #84
I don't know why lower profit margins are never an accepted outcome. It's always fire people or raise prices. The world has increasingly been fixated on bottom line, but is it not okay to ease back?
Union Strong. Workers are stronger together.
The GOP is a criminal organization who despises the middle class and working poor. Name one policy they have pushed for that increased worker pay, union strength, or worker influence in a corporation.
Bernie 2020
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04-08-2014, 08:02 PM #85
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this is what all the republicans can never seem to give a straight answer on
why the fuk was it so easy back in the day to make a living off minimum wage, support a family, etc. why does it seem like nowadays you have to break your back working 2-3 jobs just to attain those things?
everyone keeps saying "yea but you're not supposed to work at a minimum wage job permanently. it's just for high school/college students." well then damn, our past generations sure had it really fukking easy then i guess. lucky them.
is there absolutely NO WAY that some of these big corporations can cut some of their profit in exchange for higher wages? if not, then does that mean that minimum wage as it is right now is as high as it can effectively be? if we raise it even just a little bit, the economy's gonna fukking collapse? just even bringing this sh!t up is like saying the "n word" in a room full of black people. it's like, "nah bro....you didn't....you didn't just go there...."
fukking bankers, oil companies, insurance companies, etc have been fukking us over for years. why should i believe that corporations are operating on a fair level? but the republicans are all like, "nah bro, the system is totally fine....no corporations/big businesses would do anything selfish like X for their own gain..."
and for the record i don't identify with either political party. fuk all that too.Last edited by andrew28; 04-08-2014 at 08:10 PM.
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04-08-2014, 08:03 PM #86
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04-08-2014, 08:05 PM #87
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04-08-2014, 08:06 PM #88
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04-08-2014, 08:07 PM #89
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04-08-2014, 08:08 PM #90
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Because if McDonalds is paying their employees $15 an hour, those employees will most likely be flipping burgers for the rest of their lives (not all of them, but some) and that will hurt all of the kids just graduating high school/still in high school. Those kids won't have any jobs because they have these other unskilled *******s making enough for them to support themselves and a family, which means they won't be going back to school.
All the unskilled jobs will be taken by losers who are there to support their families, and not for the kids who need money for college. McDonalds should be used as a stepping stone. Shouldn't be making $15 for unskilled labor.Last edited by nickh04; 04-08-2014 at 08:15 PM.
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