Common Rowing Mistake

[rawelite]

I'm a huge believer that many people miss max attempts on the bench, squat and deadlift because of mid/upper back weakness. For that reason, I've spent many years building this area. One of the best ways to do this is through heavy rows. Most people do their rowing movements totally wrong. They miss the point of doing the heavy rowing movements. From a powerlifting standpoint, one needs to be able to keep their scapulas retracted under a heavy load. This will keep your chest high and shoulders externally rotated. Allowing the scapulas to spread allows the chest to drop and the shoulders to rotate in. A tell tale sign of a flat back with scapulas spread while benching is the shoulders rolling in and chest caving. When the scapulas spread on deadlifts and squats, the upper back rounds, the chest drops and the bar gets out in front of you...and then you are screwed.


so...what does all this have to do with rowing??


when I watch most people do bent over barbell rows or one arm dumbbell rows they allow the upper back to round and the shoulders to roll forward. In their minds this is increasing the ROM and stretching the lats more. this might be fine from a bodybuilding standpoint but from a powerlifting standpoint it is very counterproductive. Whenever you do any form of row you need to first retract those scapulas and KEEP them there for the entire set. I can't think of one instance as a powerlifter where I want my scapulas to spread. all pressing, squatting and deadlifting should be done this way. It will also protect your shoulders from injury


it's easy to say- "row heavy for a big bench, squat and deadlift" but also need to do it the right way.

[Anthony21]

Nice read man and this will help me personally going forward.

[rawelite]

here's an example of a heavy one arm row today. notice how I keep my upper body tight. I don't allow my shoulder to drop and roll in. this is much harder but will carryover to the big three.

[Anthony21]

here's an example of a heavy one arm row today. notice how I keep my upper body tight. I don't allow my shoulder to drop and roll in. this is much harder but will carryover to the big three.

Dully noted.

[phrali]

Never thought of it this way for some reason.

Thanks. Nuggets of information like this are why i lurk this forum.

[adamfm8]

Never thought of it this way for some reason.

Thanks. Nuggets of information like this are why i lurk this forum.

Agreed, same here. Thanks for this OP. I've been trying to find a good way to strengthen this area for awhile, will try this with my next set of rows. My squat and deadlift are pathetic due to this exact issue (trouble holding chest up due to posture issues)

[Schultzy85]

I definitely try to keep scaps retracted on some pulling movements, and don't think about it on others. Not sure why I do on some and not on others.

Makes perfect sense OP, very informative, thanks!!!

[eltigar]

Does this apply for pendley rows ?
I was under the impression the back needed to start off in the rounded position.

[justinvb_657]

Repped.Definitely gonna focus on this. Now suggested bar path? I would assume to Lower sternum for bench and hip joint for deadlift?

[ErickStevens]

Best row variation(s) for powerlifting?

[Nosje]

Best row variation(s) for powerlifting?

pendlay would be my guess.

[hammerfelt]

I always start db rows from the floor. It is not as effective?

[hsilman]

You are obviously much bigger and stronger than me and have been lifting for a longer time, but I'm not sure I totally agree with this point.

It kind of sticks in my head as an issue of specificity. First of all, I want to say at the top of any row variation, my scapula will be retracted. So I'm not missing strengthening the ability of my scapula to retract using my lats. However, the need to keep the scapula retracted during the whole movement doesn't strike me as necessary. I think the stretching of the lats by letting the shoulders rolls forward is beneficial as you mentioned for "bodybuilding" purposes. And this is why I row, to build a bigger/stronger back.

Since no contested lift is anything like the row, I am not going to "forget" to keep my scapula retracted while squatting, benching, etc, just because I let them roll forward while rowing. This isn't to say that keeping the scapula retracted at the "bottom" of a DB row is right or wrong, I'm not entirely sure. But I don't think it is detrimental to stretch the lats out at the bottom and get a stretch before pulling the DB back up and retracting the scapula.

[Cleveland33]

Does this apply for pendley rows ?
I was under the impression the back needed to start off in the rounded position.

mine as well

[scorpionsf]

so upper back size isn't beneficial to squats benches or deadlifts? just strength??

[Retardo-pex]

This is such a "why the **** didn't I already think this way" epiphany for me haha. I always on every row no matter what type allow my shoulders to drop forward to get a full stretch and I simply always have. Even when the "don't slump your shoulders forward at the top end of a press" information finally made it to me, I never even questioned doing it during my upper back work. I love threads like this.

[doctor220]

You are obviously much bigger and stronger than me and have been lifting for a longer time, but I'm not sure I totally agree with this point.

It kind of sticks in my head as an issue of specificity. First of all, I want to say at the top of any row variation, my scapula will be retracted. So I'm not missing strengthening the ability of my scapula to retract using my lats. However, the need to keep the scapula retracted during the whole movement doesn't strike me as necessary. I think the stretching of the lats by letting the shoulders rolls forward is beneficial as you mentioned for "bodybuilding" purposes. And this is why I row, to build a bigger/stronger back.

Since no contested lift is anything like the row, I am not going to "forget" to keep my scapula retracted while squatting, benching, etc, just because I let them roll forward while rowing. This isn't to say that keeping the scapula retracted at the "bottom" of a DB row is right or wrong, I'm not entirely sure. But I don't think it is detrimental to stretch the lats out at the bottom and get a stretch before pulling the DB back up and retracting the scapula.

I'm not one of those people that have the whole "if you can't squat 500 lbs then don't give anyone advice " people or one of those that are like "well his X lift is 2.2 times better than yours so STFU", but if you bench under 150, don't you think it's possible you have little to no understanding of the lifts and what is behind them? Maybe your stats are out of date.....

Good post OP

[j2nicee]

I'm not one of those people that have the whole "if you can't squat 500 lbs then don't give anyone advice " people or one of those that are like "well his X lift is 2.2 times better than yours so STFU", but if you bench under 150, don't you think it's possible you have little to no understanding of the lifts and what is behind them? Maybe your stats are out of date.....

Good post OP

Better question would be how do you squat 360 but only bench 150......

[Jasonk282]

And...I learned something new. Gotta be trying this tomorrow AM with my rows

[Hunttarded]

This is such a "why the **** didn't I already think this way" epiphany for me haha. I always on every row no matter what type allow my shoulders to drop forward to get a full stretch and I simply always have. Even when the "don't slump your shoulders forward at the top end of a press" information finally made it to me, I never even questioned doing it during my upper back work. I love threads like this.

Thought the exact same thing. I used to try to get as much ROM as possible and I would feel the stretch in my shoulders then I noticed my back was forming more of a "C' during heavier squats and deadlifts.

Thanks for clearing this up.

I'm not one of those people that have the whole "if you can't squat 500 lbs then don't give anyone advice " people or one of those that are like "well his X lift is 2.2 times better than yours so STFU", but if you bench under 150, don't you think it's possible you have little to no understanding of the lifts and what is behind them? Maybe your stats are out of date.....

Good post OP

I may be mistaken but I believe he's referring to his OHP in his sig.

[MetalMiscer]

I'm suprised no one has called this guy out yet.

[Jasonk282]

Better question would be how do you squat 360 but only bench 150......

It says press, not bench...two different lifts. IMO press typically refers to OHP.

[Pup2014]

Better question would be how do you squat 360 but only bench 150......

his reading comprehension is probably holding back his gainzzz...

[j2nicee]

It says press, not bench...two different lifts. IMO press typically refers to OHP.

Well in the order he lists them and looking at what section we are in, one would think he means bench press. Either way do not care/

[j2nicee]

his reading comprehension is probably holding back his gainzzz...

Truuuu

[davisj3537]

In for later reading.

Also, who posts their squat and deadlift paired with an OHP? That is just weird. I'm not saying it isn't an OHP, but that just seems like a dumb combo considering this is the phucking PL section. Maybe the strongman guys will set me straight...

[Pup2014]

davis, my thinking was the pl/strongman part. Not every dude in here is a powerlifter(or even a strongman competitor for that matter). but that's just based on my lurking experience

[phrali]

You guys clearly are not aware of the "crossfit total". Squat, ohp, hitching deadlift.

Bench press is totally not a functional strength exercise. Only bodybuilders and fat powerlifters do the stupid bench press. Not srs.

[hsilman]

Its my OHP. I listed it because I'm not currently benching since I hurt my shoulder somehow rock climbing.

Last time I benched, my max was 230.

I'm for serious just saying I really doubt letting your lats stretch when you row is what's holding back all your gainzzz. I'm not saying its wrong or right, just that I think this is a small detail that doesn't really matter that much. Just row and get stronger and be consistent with your form, whichever way you do it.

Also, your upper back rounding doesn't necessarily mean the bar gets out in front of you. In fact, many people pull with a rounded upper back. I mean, doesn't Dave Tate in those videos recommend starting the pull with a rounded upper back?

[lhprop1]

I'd tend to disagree with the OP. He's trying to make a case for increased specificity because when benching, your scaps are retracted. But this is a row, not a bench press. By maintaining retraction throughout the pull, you're in essence subjecting your scaps to nothing more than an isometric contraction while neglecting the mid traps. Allowing scapular protraction forces you to go through the complete range of motion from a dead stop with each rep and recruit all of the muscle groups in the scapulothoracic region necessary for a strong upper/mid back. It's similar to doing touch-and-go deadlifts vs resetting before each rep.

Along these lines, does the OP also oppose allowing scapular protraction while doing pullups?