Pro-Israeli argument

[Jaccogo]

I've started doing a lot of research on the Palestinian conflict in the middle east and I'm struggling to understand something... Why is there so much support for Israel?

To me they clearly committed acts of terrorism against Palestine, yet all I hear about is how America is pro-israel and that they're trying to negotiate peace. But is it really peace if you rape someone, steal their apartment, and then try to settle with them by giving a couch back?

Curious to hear a concise, educated, argument for why Hamas are the "bad guys" in the conflict and Israel should be supported.

[PSUbrah]

They have a very powerful lobby and Israel is supportive to the west's endeavors of global hegemony.

Resistance groups such as Palestinians Islamic Jihad and Hamas are seen as the bad guy and often labeled as a terrorist organization (usually by the same pro-Israeli nations like the US, UK, France etc.) because they don't serve the aforementioned agenda. Basically speaking the US decides which armed resistance movements are legitimate and which aren't. This is precisely why groups like Ahrar ash-Sham in Syria are not labeled as terrorists even though they are founded by al Qaeda veterans, like Abu Khaled al Suri who fought against America in Afghanistan 2001-present but more moderate group like, say, the Popular Resistance Committees in Gaza are considered terrorists.

This so called terrorism is a by-product of Occupation. Wherever there are foreign invaders or foreign occupiers there will be armed struggles of liberation. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[BEATINGU]

Curious to hear a concise, educated, argument for why Hamas are the "bad guys" in the conflict and Israel should be supported.

You can't comprehend why religious extremists that blow up pizzerias are the bad guys?

Is your IQ above or below room temperature?

[Jaccogo]

They have a very powerful lobby and Israel is supportive to the west's endeavors of global hegemony

So in other words you don't think that it matters what is the proper solution to the conflict, what's more important is political influence and what benefits US ambition?
I don't see how Palestine interferes with hegemony, I don't really know a lot about it or global economics but is this your way of saying that Israel plans to empower America?

[DasPhilosopher]

If you want peace? Prepare for war.

[Jaccogo]

You can't comprehend why religious extremists that blow up pizzerias are the bad guys?

Is your IQ above or below room temperature?

Religious? Not sure about that... I think that their plight is transcendent of religion.
And are you aware that Israel occupied Ramallah and subjected its citizens to poor treatment and restricted their basic rights?

[Anondragon2012]

In before the sh.tstorm begins.
Like a rookie soldier inadvertently entering a mine field
Gotta love these innocent OPs

[PSUbrah]

So in other words you don't think that it matters what is the proper solution to the conflict, what's more important is political influence and what benefits US ambition?
I don't see how Palestine interferes with hegemony, I don't really know a lot about it or global economics but is this your way of saying that Israel plans to empower America?

Precisely brah. Peace is not what the West is after "WHEN IT DOES NOT SERVE ITS AGENDA". Now that the US is having peace talks with Iran, Obama and Kerry are calling for peace deals to shut Israel up from their anti-Iranian agenda. These talks Kerry is pushing is not for the Palestinians but for the US hegemony structure to continue. In the end they do help so Palestinians are grateful and are supportive but they know the US has ulterior motives.

edit: also read my edit in my above post on Hamas.

Israeli imperialism and American imperialism go hand i hand. The Israeli government and US government brought many ruthless dictators like Idi Amin to power and overthrew many other anti-Western African leaders for their own imperialist desires. Why would the US want to scrap a partner in Crime?

[DasPhilosopher]

In before the sh.tstorm begins.
Like a rookie soldier inadvertently entering a mine field
Gotta love these innocent OPs

How is op innocent? He's curious about a controversial subject. Its just politics, everything cant be resolved instantly. Easier said than done.

[Jaccogo]

Precisely brah. Peace is not what the West is after "WHEN IT DOES NOT SERVE ITS AGENDA". Now that the US is having peace talks with Iran, Obama and Kerry are calling for peace deals to shut Israel up from their anti-Iranian agenda. These talks Kerry is pushing is not for the Palestinians but for the US hegemony structure to continue. In the end they do help so Palestinians are grateful and are supportive but they know the US has ulterior motives.

Is it wrong though to want US hegemony? To me it seems that the world economies are not very evenly distributed at all. If US falls then China will rise.

Are there no legitimate reasons to support Israel other than acknowledging rockets and jihad? I don't think that those acts of violence on their own hold up an argument.

edit: to be concise, if US economy truly falls, the entire world will suffer, causing issues globally; though perhaps that'd hurt china the most as I heard they're heavily invested in the US economy

[BEATINGU]

Religious? Not sure about that... I think that their plight is transcendent of religion.

Wait....you weren't aware that Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist organization?

[Jaccogo]

Wait....you weren't aware that Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist organization?

[img]http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/I+m+out.+Perfect+for+I+m+out+or+Abandon+Thread_4e1 d9d_4539637.gif[/ig]

You acted like they were acts of religious extremism and they're not. They're in response to foreign invasion, suppression, and continued bullying.

While Jihad is a religious action, the effort as a whole is not fueled by religion, but by the wrongs of Israel.

[PSUbrah]

Is it wrong though to want US hegemony? To me it seems that the world economies are not very evenly distributed at all. If US falls then China will rise.

Are there no legitimate reasons to support Israel other than acknowledging rockets and jihad? I don't think that those acts of violence on their own hold up an argument.

edit: to be concise, if US economy truly falls, the entire world will suffer, causing issues globally; though perhaps that'd hurt china the most as I heard they're heavily invested in the US economy

I'm not saying its a bad thing. There are many great things the US has done but this is a key detail in why the West supports Israel.

Think about it this way the US and Saudi Arabia are staunch allies and as result the their agendas are intertwined. The Saudis have a AWFUL human rights record but we continue to associate with them because we have common ambitions and they offer us a strategic base in a valuable region. This one of many reasons why we 'love' Israel. If Israel did not offer us anything and they refused to play ball like Iran or Sudan while the Palestinians were sportive of us the world would be largely anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian.

[BEATINGU]

You acted like they were acts of religious extremism and they're not. They're in response to foreign invasion, suppression, and continued bullying.

While Jihad is a religious action, the effort as a whole is not fueled by religion, but by the wrongs of Israel.

Blowing yourself up and killing innocent civilians because you think that will get you into heaven isn't a form of religious extremism?

You're clearly biased on the topic and attempting to troll us be playing stupid

There was no foreign invasion.

Do you consider India being divided into two Muslim countries (Pakistan + Bangladesh) as being a form of foreign invasion? Keep in mind that many Hindus lost their home and were forced to move.

Also, what are your thoughts on the Cyprus situation? Do you support Turkey invading Cyprus, kicking out Christians from northern Cyprus, and establishing a new Muslim country? Guess you'd be fine with Greek Cypriots blowing up civilians in pizzaerias

[rugbybosher]

INB4 bb.com IDF crew obliterates thread.
I'm not getting into a pointless circular debate with the IDF, read Illan Pape, Chomsky, Finkelstein for some interesting thoughts on the matter.

http://normanfinkelstein.com/

http://www.chomsky.info/articles.htm

[PSUbrah]

You acted like they were acts of religious extremism and they're not. They're in response to foreign invasion, suppression, and continued bullying.

While Jihad is a religious action, the effort as a whole is not fueled by religion, but by the wrongs of Israel.

Once again you are correct! You see like a very educated person, unlike others here. Hamas would still exist even if Islam did not exist. Prior to the advent of global Islamism in the 70's led by the work of Sayed Qutb, Yusuf Abdullah Azzam and Ayatollah Khomeini militant movements were largely SECULAR and NATIONALISTIC. Actually what happened was Israel fostered Islamism in Palestine because it is a hell of a lot easier to demonize a so called "religiously fanatical" group than a socialist or leftist brigade.


I apologize for spelling, I'm on my phone )

[Anondragon2012]

Is it wrong though to want US hegemony? To me it seems that the world economies are not very evenly distributed at all. If US falls then China will rise.

Are there no legitimate reasons to support Israel other than acknowledging rockets and jihad? I don't think that those acts of violence on their own hold up an argument.

edit: to be concise, if US economy truly falls, the entire world will suffer, causing issues globally; though perhaps that'd hurt china the most as I heard they're heavily invested in the US economy

Look son...
To understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict you have to go back to the roots of the Israeli state, why it was founded and why its being supported.
Things in this world have nothing to do with "protecting human rights" or "spreading freedom".
Sorry to burst your bubble but USA is not fighting for that. Geopolitics don't work that way.

Other user pretty much nailed it with the lobbies. It's actually interesting to note that historically USA & Israel were originally not that close.
USA actually initially opposed Israel and supported the Arabs and Israel's biggest ally was France.
The Jewish/Zionist lobbies have been pushing hard and through various organizations (ADL) have endoctrinated the neocon masses into supporting Israel as an outpost of "Freedom and Justice and everything that is Good in this world", so this is where we are at in 2014.

In realpolitik terms I think Israel is more of a thorn in the side of American geopolitics than anything useful.
But really American geopolitics have shifted from being pragmatic to the George W Bush era of abstract notions such as "fighting terrorism" (which really translates to killing as many arabs as possible and alienating the entire middle east).

Meanwhile Russia, China, and other pragmatic states are advancing their interests while USA "fights terror" (which it originally created back in the day when they funded Jihadis to fight the communists worldwide).

I dont know...
In long run I see USA divorcing itself from Israel, if USA becomes pragmatic again.

[mbala]

Blowing yourself up and killing innocent civilians because you think that will get you into heaven isn't a form of religious extremism?

You're clearly biased on the topic and attempting to troll us be playing stupid

There was no foreign invasion.

Do you consider India being divided into two Muslim countries (Pakistan + Bangladesh) as being a form of foreign invasion? Keep in mind that many Hindus lost their home and were forced to move.

Also, what are your thoughts on the Cyprus situation? Do you support Turkey invading Cyprus, kicking out Christians from northern Cyprus, and establishing a new Muslim country? Guess you'd be fine with Greek Cypriots blowing up civilians in pizzaerias

The india pakistan comparison isn't really relevant, since in that case it was a population transfer, whereas in the case of Israel it was a foreign invasion (yes, I know some jews lived in present day Israel before 1947, but the bulk of the population immigrated after).

If today Turkey invaded south cyprus to establish a muslim state I would support 100% the cypriot liberation movements, although I would obviously prefer if they were peaceful.

[BEATINGU]

The india pakistan comparison isn't really relevant, since in that case it was a population transfer, whereas in the case of Israel it was a foreign invasion (yes, I know some jews lived in present day Israel before 1947, but the bulk of the population immigrated after).

Really millions of Hindus being kicked out of their homes and Indian territory being used to create two Muslim countries is simply a "population transfer" but British territory (formerly owned by the Ottomans) ceded to the United Nations that was divided on ethnic and religious lines (to accommodate both populations) is a foreign invasion, lmao.

You do realize that the entire middle east was basically divided on ethnic and religious lines in the last century?

The difference is that Muslims don't want to give up territory that they view as "Muslim land" and they don't want to lose the holy land.

If today Turkey invaded south cyprus to establish a muslim state I would support 100% the cypriot liberation movements, although I would obviously prefer if they were peaceful.

Turkey invaded in the 1970's several decades after the creation of Israel and technically still occupies Cyrus to this day. Thousand of Cypriots would love to have their homes back.

Why don't you and your fellow Anti-Zionist brothers care about the Christian Cypriots that were ethnically cleansed and still have their land occupied to this day?

[Krypt0nite]

OP I'm not sure if you are really curious, or trying to make a statement, since you already determined that the Palestinians are the 'good' side here. But in case you truly are curious about the truth, then I suggest you get your facts straight, and you should take a couple of minutes to watch the following vids:

[mbala]

Really millions of Hindus being kicked out of their homes and Indian territory being used to create two Muslim countries is simply a "population transfer"

Don't forget that millions of muslims were kicked out of the hindu areas too. Hence the term "population transfer"

but British territory (formerly owned by the Ottomans) ceded to the United Nations that was divided on ethnic and religious lines (to accommodate both populations) is a foreign invasion, lmao.

Yes, if the british empire had carved out a piece of the indian subcontinent and given it to chinese immigrants then that would also be a foreign invasion.

You do realize that the entire middle east was basically divided on ethnic and religious lines in the last century?

Except for the state of Israel, which is why it sticks out as a sore thumb. It is unnatural.

The difference is that Muslims don't want to give up territory that they view as "Muslim land" and they don't want to lose the holy land.

That seems reasonable.

Turkey invaded in the 1970's several decades after the creation of Israel and technically still occupies Cyrus to this day. Thousand of Cypriots would love to have their homes back.

Yes that was terrible. Although you could justify it by pointing the out the fact that Cyprus had just undergone a coup d'�tat and that a Greek nationalist military junta had claimed power, threatening the thousands of turkish cypriots, natives of cyprus that you conveniently forgot to mention. Although I completely agree that the subsequent occupation is unjustifiable.

Why don't you and your fellow Anti-Zionist brothers care about the Christian Cypriots that were ethnically cleansed and still have their land occupied to this day?

Because there aren't any turkish lobbyists in France who constantly annoy me.

[BEATINGU]

Don't forget that millions of muslims were kicked out of the hindu areas too. Hence the term "population transfer"

Wait, so you support population transfers?

You do realize that almost the entire Jewish population in the middle-east was transferred to Israel after they were forcibly kicked out of their homes and had their property confiscated by Muslims

See: Jewish Exodus from Arab and Muslim Countries

Guess you're now a fellow Zionist!! Happy to hear it man.

(I'm seriously laughing at how you're desperately trying to justify millions of Hindus losing their home and property, while their territory was confiscated to create two Muslim countries in historically Indian land, LMAO)

Yes, if the british empire had carved out a piece of the indian subcontinent and given it to chinese immigrants then that would also be a foreign invasion.

You mean that an area of land that belonged to the Ottoman's and than the British for hundreds of years and had a large Jewish and Muslim population was split in half to allow both groups of individuals their right to self-determination? Then one group (Muslims) decided to try and conquer the Jewish half and got their butt kicked...Now have been crying for the last century.

Except for the state of Israel, which is why it sticks out as a sore thumb. It is unnatural.

Seems pretty natural to me.

Yes that was terrible. Although you could justify it by pointing the out the fact that Cyprus had just undergone a coup d'�tat and that a Greek nationalist military junta had claimed power, threatening the thousands of turkish cypriots, natives of cyprus that you conveniently forgot to mention. Although I completely agree that the subsequent occupation is unjustifiable.

Alright, so you are now against the brutal Turkish occupation of Cyrus

When can we see you start making some threads about about this travesty?

If Christians started to blow up pizzerias and killed innocent people, would you support that?

Because there aren't any turkish lobbyists in France who constantly annoy me.

There are millions of people in the United States that have a deep sympathy and support for our allies in Israel, and that is why we have lobbyists who attempt to speak and share the viewpoints of people that support Israel. It's not a hard concept to understand.

[jbball92]

You acted like they were acts of religious extremism and they're not. They're in response to foreign invasion, suppression, and continued bullying.

While Jihad is a religious action, the effort as a whole is not fueled by religion, but by the wrongs of Israel.

wow.....

[tsbalr120]

wow.....

I got a good chuckle from that

[mbala]

Wait, so you support population transfers?

If it means we can avoid bloodshed, then yes. I don't believe in multiculturalism.

Wait, so you support population transfers?

You do realize that almost the entire Jewish population in the middle-east was transferred to Israel after they were forcibly kicked out of their homes and had their property confiscated by Muslims

See: Jewish Exodus from Arab and Muslim Countries
[/QUOTE]
Half the jews in Israel have ashkenazi ancestors, who did not live in muslim countries.

Anyway that isn't really a valid point since the expulsion of jews from muslim countries was a response to the creation of Israel! If Israel had never been created jews would never have been kicked out.

Guess you're now a fellow Zionist!! Happy to hear it man.

You're projecting.

(I'm seriously laughing at how you're desperately trying to justify millions of Hindus losing their home and property, while their territory was confiscated to create two Muslim countries in historically Indian land, LMAO)

I'm not justifying anything. I'm just pointing out that millions of muslims were also displaced.

Also you might want to brush up your history a bit. The indian subcontinent was ruled by various mulim sultanates (and a few hindu kingdoms) for the near entirety of the second millenia. Most people living in the Bengal and present-day Pakistan were muslims. There was no "India". India is as much a country as Europe is.

You mean that an area of land that belonged to the Ottoman's and than the British for hundreds of years and had a large Jewish and Muslim population was split in half to allow both groups of individuals their right to self-determination? Then one group (Muslims) decided to try and conquer the Jewish half and got their butt kicked...Now have been crying for the last century.

AFAIK palestine only belonged to the british from the end of WW1 to the creation of Israel. Anyway, the muslims were an overwhelming majority, creating a jewish state would have been as ridiculous as creating a jewish state in Russia.(inb4 jewish autonomous oblast)
You seem to be a proponent of the right of victors. I'm guessing you vew favorably the occupation of Poland by Nazi germany during WW2. After all, they won 'fair and square', why did the butthurt poles keep on complaining?

Alright, so you are now against the brutal Turkish occupation of Cyrus

It is far far less brutal than the Israeli occupation of palestine.

When can we see you start making some threads about about this travesty?

I don't really care. I wouldn't really care for the Israeli palestinian conflict either if it were not for jews in my country actively promoting pro-Israeli propaganda.

If Christians started to blow up pizzerias and killed innocent people, would you support that?

No, I'm a pacifist (inb4 nazi pacifist lelelelel), I don't support anybody getting blown up, especially not civilians. However, I wouldn't call them "terrorists", and I would condemn equally if not more the turkish occupation which triggered this armed resistance.

There are millions of people in the United States that have a deep sympathy and support for our allies in Israel, and that is why we have lobbyists who attempt to speak and share the viewpoints of people that support Israel. It's not a hard concept to understand.

Yeah, I already knew that there are millions of morons in the USA.

[Harbinger]

OP, how does a country occupy its own land?

inb4 op's rep drops 100 from one neg.

[BEATINGU]

If it means we can avoid bloodshed, then yes. I don't believe in multiculturalism.

Great man. If you don't believe in multiculturalism that means you support people of different backgrounds having their own countries. Surely you support Israel in that case (which is a Jewish homeland)!!

Glad to see you're a fellow Zionist man.

Half the jews in Israel have ashkenazi ancestors, who did not live in muslim countries.

And the millions of people that originate from Muslim/Arab countries and had their property and land confiscated, while simultaneously being forced out of country?

Anyway that isn't really a valid point since the expulsion of jews from muslim countries was a response to the creation of Israel! If Israel had never been created jews would never have been kicked out.

What did Jews in random Muslim countries have to do with the creation of Israel? Many of them were forcibly sent to Israel by Muslims, LMAO!!

I'm not justifying anything. I'm just pointing out that millions of muslims were also displaced.

Population transfer brah

Also you might want to brush up your history a bit. The indian subcontinent was ruled by various mulim sultanates (and a few hindu kingdoms) for the near entirety of the second millenia. Most people living in the Bengal and present-day Pakistan were muslims. There was no "India". India is as much a country as Europe is.

Yeah because India was invaded by Muslims that occupied parts of the country. India was certainly a country and the Hindu population lost their homes and were forced off their land by the millions, to make way for two Muslim countries.

Your liberal brothers keep forgetting about

AFAIK palestine only belonged to the british from the end of WW1 to the creation of Israel. Anyway, the muslims were an overwhelming majority, creating a jewish state would have been as ridiculous as creating a jewish state in Russia.(inb4 jewish autonomous oblast)
You seem to be a proponent of the right of victors. I'm guessing you vew favorably the occupation of Poland by Nazi germany during WW2. After all, they won 'fair and square', why did the butthurt poles keep on complaining?

And before Britain it was controlled by the Ottoman's and before that another kingdom....

There was never a state of Palestine. By the 1940's when countries were being created after Britain gave up land transferred to them by the Ottoman's, the territory was divided on ethnic lines, and the Jews and Arabs both got some land (like what happened in most of the middle-east)

It is far far less brutal than the Israeli occupation of palestine.

Maybe it's "less brutal" because the Cypriots are not resorting to savagery by blowing civilians up and are moving on with their lives

I don't really care. I wouldn't really care for the Israeli palestinian conflict either if it were not for jews in my country actively promoting pro-Israeli propaganda.

You seem to care very strongly as you side with one group

No, I'm a pacifist (inb4 nazi pacifist lelelelel), I don't support anybody getting blown up, especially not civilians. However, I wouldn't call them "terrorists", and I would condemn equally if not more the turkish occupation which triggered this armed resistance.

I'm actually the peaceful person...I don't think Palestinians should blow themselves up, nor should Cypriots that were ethnically cleansed in their country, or the millions of Hindus that were kicked out of their homes in India.

Conditions would improve for the Palestinians and they can maybe move forward once they stop trying to drive out the Jews.

[spadelexus]

1. Israel is for a 2 state solution.
Hamas is not.

2. Israel does not target civilians to kill
Hamas does.

3. Israel gives Arab citizens same rights as Jews
Hamas wants to kill Jews.

4. Israel believes in freedom of speech
Hamas does not.

5. Israel believes in freedom of the press
Hamas does not.

6. Israel teaches its children to become scientists
Hamas teaches its children to become suicide bombers.

7. Israel is a country recognized by the Western world
Hamas is a terrorist organization recognized by the Western world

[PSUbrah]

1. Israel is for a 2 state solution.
Hamas is not.

2. Israel does not target civilians to kill
Hamas does.

3. Israel gives Arab citizens same rights as Jews
Hamas wants to kill Jews.

4. Israel believes in freedom of speech
Hamas does not.

5. Israel believes in freedom of the press
Hamas does not.

6. Israel teaches its children to become scientists
Hamas teaches its children to become suicide bombers.

7. Israel is a country recognized by the Western world
Hamas is a terrorist organization recognized by the Western world

First I.d like to say I in no way suport hamas and I view them as a bad group but at the same time I am not a brainwashed fool who can't think critically.

1. Wrong. Hamas's leadership has drifted remarkably from their charter following Israel killing off their core leadership including Yassin. They support a two state solution so as long as Israels pulls out of West Bank, Gaza, Shebaa Farms, and Golan. Unlike other groups Hamas believes in militaristic liberation as opposed topeaceful protest.
2. Wrong. Hamas does not want to kill Jews. They have for one thing as I said ceased the use of militancy against civilians with the INTENTION of killing civilians. Any civilians that die are merely collateral damage and are minimalistic compared to Israel's abuse of the term. There has not been a single suicide bomber since before 2005 or so.
3. *Same as above.
4. Believing in free speech is not a reason not support a group as a MEANS and not as an END. Not believing in FOS is also not a reason to label a group a 'terrorist.'
5. *See above. And let us not act like Israel truly believes in Freedom of press either.
6. Becoming a scientist is not as feasible in Gaza. As you now with the siege and all. If in fact this was the case we'd be seeing many suicide attacks which we don't.
7. Far more countries view Hamas as a legitimate group like Russia, China, Syria, Iran, Venezuela, etc. In fact less than 10 do not view them as such. Why should the western world have a monopoly on the labeling of terror.
Lastly people hardly like Hamas anymore except for random hipster western Palestinian activists. Even Gazans view them as utter crap. There time will be up soon and another more educated group will come to power hopefully.

[daggles02]

Israel is not leaving their home land and neighbouring arabs cant take it by force (as much as they try)
so hammas is the baddy because instead of acknowledging this and making there country the best it can like israel does. it teaches children how to become suicide bombers and forces death on there own innocent people by harassing israel with rockets and other terrorist attacks.