Squatting With Long Femurs

[kaleida]

I've been watching the Exercises section ever since I figured out how to squat with my long femurs.
I see a lot of "help my squat!" threads that follow a common theme:

OP: "can you check my squat form? Also, why does my center of gravity keep going onto my toes?"
OP's video: a squat above parallel, with lots of forward lean ... and long femurs
Response #1: "you should sit back more!"
Response #2: "stop leaning forward so much!"
Response #3: "just think about pushing through your heels!"

A large percentage of people who ask for squat help here have long femurs - because squatting with long femurs is hard!
But a large percentage of the people who try to help, can't ... because they have different proportions, and the tips that helped them the most don't seem to work on long femurs.

My goal is to try to close that gap.

If you have long femurs: this post will help you understand why your squats are challenging - and help you see more options to squat successfully.
If you don't have long femurs: read anyway ... this post might help you help a confused long-femured noob!


welcome to my world ... long-femur land

First things first, there's one thing that everyone needs to know about long-femur land...



(Well ... maybe a long-femured person can maybe give the appearance of sitting back from a side view ... if they made some careful changes to their stance before they started squatting ... but more on that later!)


A long-femured person can't just "sit back and then poof, everything works!" It's actually more like "sit back and everything falls apart."

And "sit back" is pretty common advice given to a long-femured noob - those huge thighs have to go somewhere - sometimes they go forward - way past the toes. Lots of people jump on that in a form check video and advise them to "sit back more!" or "minimize forward knee travel!"

When a long-femured person tries to minimize forward knee travel, this is what happens - their epic femur length will put their butt into the next time zone - without enough torso length to counter it:



So that's pretty much anatomically impossible to balance - the bar isn't over the feet.

Because it's anatomically impossible to balance that, this happens instead:



The body shifts everything forward - body plus bar - unavoidably - to keep the bar over the feet.

Mental cues to "sit back more!" or "push through your heels!" or "keep your chest up!" don't help because those cues don't change the underlying issue - the femur/torso length ratio. The shift is actually necessary to stay balanced in this stance. (Fortunately, stance can be changed though...)

The same picture illustrates why the long-femured person can't get below parallel in a narrow stance with minimal forward knee travel. They'll hit a bone limit in their hips first. It's not a soft tissue limit that can be fixed with mobility work - it's a bone-on-bone limit. Pelvic bones hit the leg bone and that's it.


how to squat successfully with long femurs

Luckily there is more than one way to squat successfully with long femurs - below parallel with no center of gravity shift.
I'm listing all options that I currently know of. These options can be used one at a time - or mixed and matched.

I list them in no particular order. I'm "strategy-agnostic" - I list all options that I know of.
Some of these will feel stronger to you. Some will feel stronger to the person next door. Some put more stress on the knees. Others put more stress on the hips.

Don't worry about which one is best - try a few, pick one that doesn't injure you, start with easy weight, and train it. Any of these options can become impressive with training.


option 1: more forward knee travel

This is the side view of what happens if a long-femured person allows a lot of forward knee travel ...suddenly the bar is over the feet without a forward weight shift. Depending on the femur length this can require either very good ankle flexibility, or shoes with an elevated heel, or both. Don't rule it out just because knees go past the toes - many squatters do this successfully with a lot of weight and no knee issues.



option 2: wider stance

This is what a long-femured person might look like from the side if he does an extra-wide stance squat. For me this requires epic hip adductor flexibility, but I was able to balance it and get below parallel without a forward weight shift. From the side, it looks like the femurs are shorter because they are pointing diagonally out.



The nice thing about these options is you don't need to use the extreme version of any single option - you can mix and match them.

For example if maximum forward knee travel in a narrow stance challenges your ankle flexibility too much, and maximum stance width challenges your hip adductors too much - try a little bit of forward knee travel plus a little bit of extra stance width. It's like cooking... a little bit of this, a little bit of that!

option 3: feet & knees pointing more out

Pointing feet and knees out more has a similar effect as a wide stance - getting the femurs out of the way diagonally - but this option can work in a narrow stance or a wide stance, so I list it separately. Feet pointing forward vs. out can also feel very different in terms of strength and glute activation - so I think it's good to try both of them.

This is what a long-femur squat might look like with a narrow stance, knees and toes both pointing out, and lots of forward knee travel ...



all these options have one thing in common...

All of these options bring the bar farther forward compared to the feet, in the bottom position of the squat. That's why they work for long femurs. What we're trying to avoid is that scenario where the bar is behind the feet.

It probably seems counterintuitive - someone's center of gravity is shifting forward and they need their center of gravity to be even more forward in order to fix it? YES! That is exactly what's happening - and that is exactly how to fix it.

When the bar is already over the feet, then the body doesn't need to shift center of gravity forward to keep the bar over the feet.

There is one more option that long-femured people can experiment with - to put the bar slightly farther forward in the bottom position, closer to the feet...

option 4: high bar

Moving the bar from a low bar position to a high bar position brings it at least an inch or two forward compared to the feet at the bottom of the squat - depending on femur and torso length this might be enough by itself, or it might need to be used in combination with something else in the list.


mix and match them!

These options can be used individually - or you can mix 2 or 3 of them at the same time. You can even mix all 4 together if you wanted to.
And they aren't specific to high bar or low bar. I have seen very successful high bar squats with a wide stance and minimal forward knee travel - I've seen very successful low bar squats with a lot of forward knee travel. Thinking outside the box is completely OK.

Torso angle will vary a lot depending on which options you're using - but long-femured people will always look like they're "leaning over" more than other people regardless of which option they choose, and that is normal. The important thing is just making sure the bar stays over the feet for the entire lift without needing any center of gravity shift to keep it there.

how do I know if I have long femurs?

If you read this and you're thinking: "WOW, that sounds like me!!!! Those are MY squat problems!! And for once there's some advice that doesn't sound anatomically impossible!!!! I'm going to the gym right now! Where's my video camera?!" ... then ... well ... you probably have long femurs.

If you're reading this and thinking "hmmm that was interesting I didn't know that happened to some people" - then you don't have long femurs ... BUT I hope it was still a useful post anyway ... if you can visualize why the forward weight shift happens, then you can help point some long-femured people in the right direction. Based on personal experience, it can be confusing to try to figure out how to squat with long femurs. The more help they can get, the better!

how do I know if other people have long femurs?

If you are reading a "help my squat!" thread and you see both of these signs at the same time, then it's extremely likely that they have long femurs.

1. Classic long-femur person squat problems - if they minimize forward knee travel in a narrowish stance, then they can't get below parallel and their center of gravity shifts forward onto the toes.

2. In a video, behold the bottom position of the squat... if you could magically continue folding that person in half at the hips without bending their back, would their knees touch their shoulders - or even go slightly past the shoulders? That's what long femurs usually look like in a video. (Like the girl below...if we folded her in half at the hips, then her knees would be on her shoulders or slightly past them.)



I hope this post either helps you - or helps you help someone else!

[unstrong]

Glad you did this. Great article.

[BenD4Me]

option 5, lifting shoes. Or plates under your heels.

[davisj3537]

This went up quickly! Very thorough

[KDG730]

Wider stance with feet pointing out works well for me. Nice read

[shesprints]

Really useful. If my long and also broken femur ever heals I'll keep these tips in mind, though I already high-bar squat and use a wider stance with feet slightly turned out (I have a good trainer). What's funny is that I actually have more trouble deadlifting than squatting and basically rely on the trap bar.

[-Lucifer]

39" inseam checking in.

- Low bar
- Shoulder width stance
- Feet pointing out more

That's more of a hybrid style because it allows for more 'knee travel'. Feels very comfortable and natural.

[kaleida]

I'm glad this article is getting some views, thanks for reading everyone
I'm interested in hearing from people who don't have long femurs too... is it understandable? I hope the pictures make it easy to visualize

I did edit a bit to mention heeled shoes in option 1 (forward knee travel)...they can definitely help if ankle flexibility is a limiting factor in how far forward the knees can go.

[kaleida]

39" inseam checking in.

- Low bar
- Shoulder width stance
- Feet pointing out more

That's more of a hybrid style because it allows for more 'knee travel'. Feels very comfortable and natural.

I always thought your avi looked perfectly balanced ...never realized until now that your thighs weren't pointing straight forward!
So basically I got fooled by the same optical illusion that I was trying to show in my stick figures

[unstrong]

39" inseam checking in.

- Low bar
- Shoulder width stance
- Feet pointing out more

That's more of a hybrid style because it allows for more 'knee travel'. Feels very comfortable and natural.

I've tried this style. Feels very balanced but my abductors have a hard time handling it. Did you have to work at abductor strength at all?

[-Lucifer]

I've tried this style. Feels very balanced but my abductors have a hard time handling it. Did you have to work at abductor strength at all?

Adductor, yes. I used the machine when I lifted at the public gym. I now lift at home, so I can only do 'leg flyes' whilst lying on the floor.

You need to stretch your hips regularly. Start doing splits.

[-Lucifer]

I always thought your avi looked perfectly balanced ...never realized until now that your thighs weren't pointing straight forward!
So basically I got fooled by the same optical illusion that I was trying to show in my stick figures

My avi is from 2011. My feet were pointing out a bit but definitely not straight ahead. I now squat with them pointing out even more and my knees love it.

[kaleida]

I think multiple options I listed need adductor strength and flexibility ... the wide stance, and the feet/knees pointing out.

I wonder if I should put a disclaimer in there somewhere about lowering the weight if you overhaul squat form very suddenly! Last summer I switched from a narrower stance to a wide one with my feet pointing out and didn't lower the weight at the same time ... got an adductor strain

After that strain healed I trained a narrower stance for a while ... but I came back to the wide one later because my deadlift likes it a lot. I like trying different squat setups for a few months each and seeing how my deadlift responds to each one.

[unstrong]

Adductor, yes. I used the machine when I lifted at the public gym. I now lift at home, so I can only do 'leg flyes' whilst lying on the floor.

You need to stretch your hips regularly. Start doing splits.

Er, right, of course. Did you do the machine as a warm-up or as assistance work at the end of the workout (or some combination e.g. low weight to warm up, max out to strengthen?).

I've been working on my hip flexibility a lot. Having to sit for work as much as I do is a huge hinderance. I bought a pillow to kneel on instead of sitting but I can only do it for so long before my knees get sore.

EDIT: I did a bit of research and Bill Starr recommends wide squats with toes pointed straight forward to train the adductors. Light weight, lots of volume: suggested sets/reps is 3x20 (done after normal squats). I'll try it out and see how it goes.

[-Lucifer]

Last summer I switched from a narrower stance to a wide one with my feet pointing out and didn't lower the weight at the same time ... got an adductor strain

That strain is due to weak adductors. I felt it recently when I used a heavy weight. You felt it whist coming out of the hole, didn't you? You can either use the adductor machine or do leg flyes like I do at home.

Er, right, of course. Did you do the machine as a warm-up or as assistance work at the end of the workout (or some combination e.g. low weight to warm up, max out to strengthen?).

I used that machine to do 3 sets of 15 reps at the end of my squat session. Then I got bored of it because I could do the entire stack pretty easily. After a few weeks, I strained my groin again and decided to do some bb lunges. That worked like a charm, too.

I now do 3 sets of leg flyes with 1 kg ankle weights as a warm-up. The first set is done without any weight, and the next two with the ankle weights. I go for as many reps as possible, stopping just 1-2 reps before failure. This has been working well so far.

EDIT: I did a bit of research and Bill Starr recommends wide squats with toes pointed straight forward to train the adductors. Light weight, lots of volume: suggested sets/reps is 3x20 (done after normal squats). I'll try it out and see how it goes.

Yes, I read that article of his. I'm paranoid about hurting my knees, so I didn't think doing that squat variant would be a good idea.

[kaleida]

EDIT: I did a bit of research and Bill Starr recommends wide squats with toes pointed straight forward to train the adductors. Light weight, lots of volume: suggested sets/reps is 3x20 (done after normal squats). I'll try it out and see how it goes.

That definitely sounds like it would get the adductors stronger!

If you need to get them more flexible too, there's a good adductor stretch in the bottom position of a goblet squat, with elbows pushing the thighs out as much as possible:


...or the frog stretch from limber 11:

[kaleida]

That strain is due to weak adductors. I felt it recently when I used a heavy weight. You felt it whist coming out of the hole, didn't you? You can either use the adductor machine or do leg flyes like I do at home.

Yes! It's been healed for almost a year now. After the adductor strain I deloaded, and then went back to squatting just the bar and worked my way back up. Also a lot of adductor stretching as I worked my way up, because it felt like the injured side was healing tighter than the other side ... now my adductors are flexible and stronger... I think they are no longer the weak point in my squat!

[-Lucifer]

now my adductors are flexible and stronger... I think they are no longer the weak point in my squat! : )

Coolio!

Out of curiosity, how much do you like high bar squats? I find that front squats (ATG, shoulder width stance) feel more natural compared to low bar squats. Also, low bar squats sometimes cause sharp knee pain but front squats never cause pain of any kind.

[kaleida]

Coolio!

Out of curiosity, how much do you like high bar squats? I find that front squats (ATG, shoulder width stance) feel more natural compared to low bar squats. Also, low bar squats sometimes cause sharp knee pain but front squats never cause pain of any kind.

oh I love them ... this probably deserves to be a topic of its own because my eyes light up and I want to talk about it all day LOL
I am hesitant to write it here because I'm trying to be "strategy agnostic" and all that I know different things work for different people but the high bar squats are really working for me.

I'm currently training a wide high bar stance with forward knee travel my feet pointing out...basically the "most upright" type of back squat my body can do. Which is about a 45 degree back angle but it still feels "upright" to me...feels like my legs need to do all the work and my back can't help.

My squat max loves it... 5 weeks of high bar squatting, followed by 1 low bar max test, gave me my best-ever low bar squat in the gym - and my fastest-ever non-noob increase in squat strength (+20lb in 5 weeks, comparing gym low bar max tests)

My deadlift loves it...I keep adding 5lb per week to my deadlift with no sign of stopping yet

My hip joints love it ...turns out I had an issue called "anterior femoral glide" caused by hamstrings overpowering my glutes, and some extra glute strength helps hold my femur head in the right position in the hip socket, reducing hip clicking and giving me more stance options that don't cause impingement pain in my hips

[unstrong]

The frog stretch is great. I do Limber 11 daily already, so I'm looking for something else to supplement.

[-Lucifer]

I'm currently training a wide high bar stance with forward knee travel my feet pointing out...basically the "most upright" type of back squat my body can do. Which is about a 45 degree back angle but it still feels "upright" to me...feels like my legs need to do all the work and my back can't help.

Okay, so pretty much how I squat except you use a high bar position. Me gusta.

My squat max loves it... 5 weeks of high bar squatting, followed by 1 low bar max test, gave me my best-ever low bar squat in the gym - and my fastest-ever non-noob increase in squat strength (+20lb in 5 weeks, comparing gym low bar max tests)

That's great progress. Will try that out. Thanks, K.

My hip joints love it ...turns out I had an issue called "anterior femoral glide" caused by hamstrings overpowering my glutes, and some extra glute strength helps hold my femur head in the right position in the hip socket, reducing hip clicking and giving me more stance options that don't cause impingement pain in my hips

Never heard of that before. What did you do to strengthen the glutes? Sumo squats and DL's? Glute bridges?

[kaleida]

Never heard of that before. What did you do to strengthen the glutes? Sumo squats and DL's? Glute bridges?

In the beginning my glutes got stronger just from switching to high bar squats instead of low bar. Upright-torso squatting seems to activate my glutes better (relative upright torso I guess... I still need more forward lean than most because of my proportions).

Then later I read about what was happening in my hips and added some glute bridges too to speed up the process Glute bridges are nice because they put the hamstrings in active insufficiency to focus more on the glutes. I'm really hesitant to add exercises normally but an absence of hip pain motivated me a lot to keep it that way.

I think because of the location of the pain, and my low torso angle, when I was low bar squatting, I always thought it was "hip flexor muscle getting pinched between pelvis and femur" ... but now I think it was my labrum getting pinched between hip socket and femur because the femur head was slightly out of place. I read a lot about anterior femoral glide and it just sounds like they are talking about me. It's nice to be able to squat and not have hip pain afterwards ... I think that might be why I'm making faster progress with high bar, because my body has less minor damage to repair after squats

[kaleida]

Shameless bump I'm interested in hearing from some longer-torso / shorter-femur people too ...is the article understandable to people who haven't experienced this?

[ZoranM]

Option 6, don't squat with long femurs. Do something else, results will be better, injury risk smaller.

[-Lucifer]

Do something else, results will be better, injury risk smaller.

Like what? Leg press and lunges?

[ZoranM]

Like what? Leg press and lunges?

Yes. We've already been over this, Pussyfer.

[-Lucifer]

How will the results be better? Lol. Every human is capable of squatting. Don't hijack this thread.

[ZoranM]

How will the results be better? Lol. Every human is capable of squatting. Don't hijack this thread.

Knock yourself out. Again.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ghlight=femurs

[unstrong]

Knock yourself out. Again.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ghlight=femurs

lol... what does that prove exactly?

It's just you spouting nonsense over and over again. It's your opinion, and an unfounded one at that.

[-Lucifer]

So? That guy was an anomaly. Do you really think guys like that are common? I still don't see how leg presses [and other movements] will get you better results.