AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part V

[Muckrake]

I'm concerned about how warm-up sets would impact my OHP. I do the warm-ups for the big 3 lifts and I feel like they do improve my form and performance on the work sets. However, I feel like - more than any other lift - I am susceptible to stamina problems on OHP. Do you think that adding warm-up sets would improve my stamina on the work sets, or would it hamper it? I never feel like strength is the issue on OHP, always stamina (muscle fatigue in the moment).

[nightanole]

You got a source? Mark Rippetoe in his book Starting Strength has a section on the Press (Chapter 3) and he says the Press should start with the empty bar on the rack at the middle of your sternum. That chapter goes into great detail about the press and the importance of the lift and why you should spend time learning the press correctly. It can also be easier to hurt the rotator cuff or impingement injuries with poor form and the warmups help you learn proper bar path and form.

It will never hurt your workout to do a few reps with the empty bar as a new or novice lifter.


ETA:

I think we are muddying the waters arguing about semantics. Yes in the AllPro original thread AllPro himself did say only the first 3 exercises. So you guys are correct.

BUT, the warmups and SLDL have become the stepchild of this routine. These 2 areas get so misrepresented and bastardized over the years because they are confusing to read. Hopefully Nightanole will get permission to go in and modify these discrepancies. The easiest way to explain the routine to new lifters is to have them warm up for all 5 core lifts.

I think all of us that have some lifting experience can agree that warm up sets are not a bad thing. The degree that you do them is really up to you. We went through this several months back so no need to rehash it here.

So hopefully we can move on and not clutter up the thread more.

Since i am OP i can edit the first posts. However why should I? It clearly states in the very first faq statement the pattern, even broken down to basic amoeba; warmup set,warmup set,work set, work set. The warmup for the OHP was dropped because it was too much volume for a n00b and people were not progressing. The explanation (and used for other routines that bench/ohp in the same session) was that you were warmed up from the bench press/row/squat. A simple search of the pdf faq for the SLDL has a reasonable explanation. No exercise is described, it is assumed you know what they are are. If you get stiff legged confused with straight legged, Romanian, or spinal erector, Well thats like getting "bench press" confused with incline/decline, wide/narrow.

I could add another section to describe each exercise...

[LiftSleepEat]

Wraps or try them under hand.

Not sure how wraps would help, but I already tried doing them under hand while pointing my thumb up, still hurts. It only works under low weights and when I use dumbbells. Is it okay if I substitute them for dumbbell rows? I see no other solution.

[Sader762]

Since i am OP i can edit the first posts. However why should I? It clearly states in the very first faq statement the pattern, even broken down to basic amoeba; warmup set,warmup set,work set, work set. The warmup for the OHP was dropped because it was too much volume for a n00b and people were not progressing. The explanation (and used for other routines that bench/ohp in the same session) was that you were warmed up from the bench press/row/squat. A simple search of the pdf faq for the SLDL has a reasonable explanation. No exercise is described, it is assumed you know what they are are. If you get stiff legged confused with straight legged, Romanian, or spinal erector, Well thats like getting "bench press" confused with incline/decline, wide/narrow.

I could add another section to describe each exercise...

I guess I didn't explain myself well enough, my fault. When reading back through the 5 complete threads of AllPro SBR the most common questions it seems, again maybe I'm wrong here, but it seems like people ask the most about warmup sets and the SLDL. There is a lot of confusion over the SLDL and I think many people new to AllPro have questions about it. The youtube videos from great trainers and athletes confuse the SLDL even further. Just look at Canditio vs. Norton on the SLDL.

Again, not trying to cause trouble, just offer what I think is good advice. But I'll politely bow out since I seem to be in the minority on this.

[azmic123]

Why is novice 3x4-8 instead?
Does beginner or novice come first?

[Voxmusculus]

Why is novice 3x4-8 instead?
Does beginner or novice come first?

Novice always comes first.

[nightanole]

Novice always comes first.

Nope beginner comes first here. Novice is when the weight gets heavy, you switch to 3 sets of 4-8 reps for a few cycles, then you can start intermediate v2, which is 4 sets of 4-8 reps.

[nightanole]

I guess I didn't explain myself well enough, my fault. When reading back through the 5 complete threads of AllPro SBR the most common questions it seems, again maybe I'm wrong here, but it seems like people ask the most about warmup sets and the SLDL. There is a lot of confusion over the SLDL and I think many people new to AllPro have questions about it. The youtube videos from great trainers and athletes confuse the SLDL even further. Just look at Canditio vs. Norton on the SLDL.

Again, not trying to cause trouble, just offer what I think is good advice. But I'll politely bow out since I seem to be in the minority on this.

Your not in the minority. You can see that over and over people ask why there are "4 sets", yet the very first line explains them all. I might look into adding a post on form, but for stuff thats just laid out, well we are dealing with people who just learned what a rep and set are. Im sure there are quite a few that need to look up what ROM is and a few other things.

If you can think of a few descriptions that will help out ill edit them down along with adding my own for at least bench and row. I need to get ahold of a MOD so i can edit my posts over 180 days old.

[shanapanda]

Thanks for the reply Nightnanole. Reason I asked is I feel fried now on my second week now of Cycle 2. I remember reading somewhere not going to failure. Bench Press, Shoulder Press, and Upright Rows all passed last cycle to failure, barely. I know for sure I couldn't have done another rep on those, bench press is really kicking my ass this cycle. With the 10 percent increase I felt like I went to failure on that already on rep 9 week. My question is, would going to failure in general on every week not be advisable and even leave one or two in the tank even at 12 rep week? Maybe it's just me but going to failure leaves me with that 'fried cns' feeling throught out the later days/week.

[nightanole]

Thanks for the reply Nightnanole. Reason I asked is I feel fried now on my second week now of Cycle 2. I remember reading somewhere not going to failure. Bench Press, Shoulder Press, and Upright Rows all passed last cycle to failure, barely. I know for sure I couldn't have done another rep on those, bench press is really kicking my ass this cycle. With the 10 percent increase I felt like I went to failure on that already on rep 9 week. My question is, would going to failure in general on every week not be advisable and even leave one or two in the tank even at 12 rep week? Maybe it's just me but going to failure leaves me with that 'fried cns' feeling throught out the later days/week.

Yup you will get the fried cns, and your recovery will be compromised. However it will lead to extra conditioning, and that will mean you will fail this cycle and pass next cycle. You should always try to get the weeks rep requirements. If throwing food at the problem doesnt make it go away, then the 3 week deload next cycle will. I only passed over head press every other cycle.

Bench, i listened to my shoulders, adjusted my form so it evened out the load (even tried reverse grip on light days). What helped me on bench was changing my goals. A bad goal is to get the bar 18-20" away from your chest, a correct goal is to lock out every rep. If you move your shoulders up, you can get the bar up, if you arch your chest up, you can move the bar up, both are lousy. Beginner benchers will push the bar straight up, 4" away from the start/neutral zone, then either go back down(making the next rep really hard), or push their shoulders/chest back to swing the bar back the neutral zone. Which compromises the back arch and causes lost power and lost tension while at chest level.

If you can, hang a washer directly above your shoulders (neutral zone where the bar is the lightest) where the bar should hit. Bring the bar down and have it hit below your nipples (or where ever it hits on your chest while your elbows are still under the bar), then push BACK towards the washer and make it ping. That is the most efficient bar path for any flat bench exercises. Skull crushers, close grip, wide grip, reverse grip, they will always hit that washer at the top of the movement.

[njdfan30]

Since i am OP i can edit the first posts. However why should I? It clearly states in the very first faq statement the pattern, even broken down to basic amoeba; warmup set,warmup set,work set, work set. The warmup for the OHP was dropped because it was too much volume for a n00b and people were not progressing. The explanation (and used for other routines that bench/ohp in the same session) was that you were warmed up from the bench press/row/squat.

I think the warm up sets for bench make it unnecessary to have warm up sets for the OHP...I don't pretend to be an expert about weight training, but what I can say from my own experience is that if I do extra reps on the bench, completing my work sets on OHP is significantly more difficult.

In other news, today was my light day for the last week of my first cycle, so next Monday I go for my first weight increase. In 5 weeks I only missed 1 day - a light day last week when I split town for the weekend. I'm also learning to ice skate and take lessons Tue and Thur and it seems to help keep my legs a bit from stiffening up from squats.

Anyone have any alternatives for the SL Deadlift? No matter how I change my technique, grip, etc. it always feels like I'm working my lower back more than my hamstrings and causes a little discomfort there...thinking about doing the hamstring curls to ease the stress on my lower back and target them a bit better. Also once I week I'm throwing in leg raises to get a little ab work in as well. Overall things seem to be going well, I occasionally do a few extra reps on squat or bench on my light day since I get an extra day to recover.

[LiftSleepEat]

1) Is it possible that I could substitute barbell bent over rows to dumble rows because of painful electric shocks I'm feeling when I perform them?
2)What's the difference between SLDLs and Romanian dead lifts. Stiff legged work more the lower back with glutes and hamstrings secondary, while Romanian vise versa?
3) Does it matter the order you do the exercises in your work out?

[nightanole]

I think the warm up sets for bench make it unnecessary to have warm up sets for the OHP...I don't pretend to be an expert about weight training, but what I can say from my own experience is that if I do extra reps on the bench, completing my work sets on OHP is significantly more difficult.

In other news, today was my light day for the last week of my first cycle, so next Monday I go for my first weight increase. In 5 weeks I only missed 1 day - a light day last week when I split town for the weekend. I'm also learning to ice skate and take lessons Tue and Thur and it seems to help keep my legs a bit from stiffening up from squats.

Anyone have any alternatives for the SL Deadlift? No matter how I change my technique, grip, etc. it always feels like I'm working my lower back more than my hamstrings and causes a little discomfort there...thinking about doing the hamstring curls to ease the stress on my lower back and target them a bit better. Also once I week I'm throwing in leg raises to get a little ab work in as well. Overall things seem to be going well, I occasionally do a few extra reps on squat or bench on my light day since I get an extra day to recover.

The only real alternative is the good morning, and then you will have to add additional grip work after the workout. To fix the extending the lower back, you need to learn to lock your rib cage down (not arch your back), and keep your head down (try to hold a tennis ball under your chin).

One note; be very careful about adding reps on this routine, you might be able to get away with it for the first few cycles, but this is a fatigue basic routine. You build up the fatigue too fast with added volume, and you will stall.

1) Is it possible that I could substitute barbell bent over rows to dumble rows because of painful electric shocks I'm feeling when I perform them?
2)What's the difference between SLDLs and Romanian dead lifts. Stiff legged work more the lower back with glutes and hamstrings secondary, while Romanian vise versa?
3) Does it matter the order you do the exercises in your work out?

Again i would try wrist wraps first, they are like 10 bucks for 2 pairs on amazon. The added pressure might help the pinched nerve or what ever other bone on bone problem you have. Also make sure you are hitting the belly button or lower, almost gliding up the quads. If not, yea you will have to figure out another lat/lower back movement. Just about anything thats not a machine (even cable pulls work) would work, even weighted chinups, but i really dont think you can do 3 sets of 8 with 18% of your bw hanging on your belt so you can do medium/light day.

The exercises are setup for optimal rest and quickest workout. If you have to work in, you have to the squat/bench/row first, in no particular order. For the rest, i really would make the OHP next, since its always the toughest lift.

[Pottertons]

2)What's the difference between SLDLs and Romanian dead lifts. Stiff legged work more the lower back with glutes and hamstrings secondary, while Romanian vise versa?

In short..

Deadlift = Knees bending throughout the entire ROM
Romanian = Knees start bending half way through ROM
Stiff Legged = Legs stay straight and knees bend very very slightly if at all, remembering not to lock out.

Romanian:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...nDeadlift.html

My understanding is that the Romanian, starts with stiff legs, (straight and flexed to make them stiff, but not locked out at the knees), but when the bar gets to about mid point (usually knees but YMMV) you then continue to lower your bar to the ground by bending at the knees.
Then on your way up, you push until the your legs are straight and then finish the range of motion by flexing your Hamstrings and Glutes to bring your upper body back up to a vertical standing position.

Stiff/Straight Legged deadlift:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...gDeadlift.html

Stiff legged works the Hamstrings first. Start from standing straight with a tight straight upper body and then with your legs straight, flexed but not locked out at the knees, you lower the bar while keeping it close to your body as if your goal is to smoothly place it on the floor just in front of your toes. The lower you can go while keeping your back straight well before it begins to round, will depend on your flexibility.

From a rookie stand point, I feel that it ought be noted that the naturally forced action of pushing away with your but is an important part of this move. When i first tried to do them, I tried to just bend and lower so that my legs stayed 'straight' as in 'vertical', which in turn meant that the bar was lowered waaaaaaay ahead of my feet. (picture from side-view, a square made with the floor, legs, back parallel to the floor and hanging arms). Big no no.


Romanian, (again, from how i understand it) Starts as like the stiff-legged version, but when the bar gets to about mid point (usually knees) you then continue to lower your bar to the ground by bending at the knees. Then on your way up, you push until the your legs are straight and then finish the range of motion by flexing your Hamstrings and Glutes to bring your upper body back up to a vertical standing position.


As with everything i say, I stand to be swiftly corrected.

3) Does it matter the order you do the exercises in your work out?

To an extent, yes.
Think of it as two groups of exercises.

- 1st group is the 'Big 3' (Squat, Bench Press & Bent Over Rows) which MUST be done first.

- 2nd group is compiled of the remaining 4 exercises (OHP, SLDL, Curls & Calf Raises)

Within those 2 groups, the exercises can be rearranged to suit your needs.

[nightanole]

Best explanation from a doctor:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKhhHczuxF0

One note is that he does the traditional SLDL(99% the same as the allpro version, just back rounding, and he doesnt keep the bar over toes or farther), So only go to the point that your back goes flat. The traditional SLDL is meant to stretch the hams, but also work the spinal erectors more than the ALLPRO version. A n00b should never do the traditional(semi rounding lower back) version (or ATG squats) because they dont have the experience to stabilize themselves and KNOW that everything is correct. Same thing goes for rounding your upper back in the traditional deadlift, people dead lifting for 5-10 years KNOW they are not compromising their lower back, n00bs WILL compromise their lower back. The allpro (and canditotrainingHQ) SLDL is meant to train you for a traditional deadlift, by using a beginner version that hits 2 key points. 1. it stretches the hams, which carry over to the squat (no the high bar squat does not fully stretch the hams) to help with buttwink. 2. It moves the deadlift sticking point/load to the back, so for a n00b, its less likely for them to over power their backs with the quads to get the weight up. with the SLDL, if your back cant take it, the bar doesnt come off the ground.

[leinaalat]

I love reading all the comments. I have been doing some research on building muscles and getting ripped, just getting that perfect beach body and found a system that works for me and my friends...

They will give you specific instructions that are easy to follow on how to build your body into a muscle machine. It is all about building muscle the healthiest and most simple way possible by combining products with exercise and rest. Hope that helps.

[Pottertons]

Best explanation from a doctor:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKhhHczuxF0

One note is that he does the traditional SLDL(99% the same as the allpro version, just back rounding, and he doesnt keep the bar over toes or farther), So only go to the point that your back goes flat. The traditional SLDL is meant to stretch the hams, but also work the spinal erectors more than the ALLPRO version. A n00b should never do the traditional(semi rounding lower back) version (or ATG squats) because they dont have the experience to stabilize themselves and KNOW that everything is correct. Same thing goes for rounding your upper back in the traditional deadlift, people dead lifting for 5-10 years KNOW they are not compromising their lower back, n00bs WILL compromise their lower back. The allpro (and canditotrainingHQ) SLDL is meant to train you for a traditional deadlift, by using a beginner version that hits 2 key points. 1. it stretches the hams, which carry over to the squat (no the high bar squat does not fully stretch the hams) to help with buttwink. 2. It moves the deadlift sticking point/load to the back, so for a n00b, its less likely for them to over power their backs with the quads to get the weight up. with the SLDL, if your back cant take it, the bar doesnt come off the ground.

Buttwink!
LMAO. I can't get over that term. Please excuse my nOOb'ism as i get used to such terminology.

Based on the link you've provided and the explanation that i posted a couple ones up. I was doing correctly the first time (holding the bar away from my body and keeping the legs planted vertically) and i'm now doing it incorrectly? (Holding the bar closer to the body while the but pushes back a little).

Strange, because he says that the Romanian...
"Will help to keep the emphasis on the hamstrings and glutes, and minimize the use of the lower back muscle"
Which is what i ended up believing to be an SLDL. My goodness, this is throwing me all over the place now. lol

I think just about every youtube video i've watched and every article i've read on this exercise, explains it differently with one calling it the other.

@LiftEatSleep Please disregard my useless attempt of an explanation.

[njdfan30]

The only real alternative is the good morning, and then you will have to add additional grip work after the workout. To fix the extending the lower back, you need to learn to lock your rib cage down (not arch your back), and keep your head down (try to hold a tennis ball under your chin).

One note; be very careful about adding reps on this routine, you might be able to get away with it for the first few cycles, but this is a fatigue basic routine. You build up the fatigue too fast with added volume, and you will stall.

OK, I just added a few reps here and there, mainly on light days because I'm usually not sore at all. As for the SL deadlift, I feel next to nothing in my hamstrings, sometimes I do try to picture me driving my heels through the platform I'm standing on which seems to help hit the hammies a little. I'm not very flexible so maybe I shouldn't be going all the way down to the top of my feet with the bar as well. I know it's a good exercise but it is kind of a bummer not getting it right after like 5 weeks. I'll try focusing more on it next week, maybe the added weight will actually help a little in terms of form.

[sajor]

for the last 3 months, i been cutting at 1800 cal 155p/180c/50f, my TEE is 2180cal, as you can see its not that aggressive of a cut, I was doing great at the begining , my lifts were going up, felt great energy wise , all that came to a stop 8/18/2014 on my heavy day i failed most of my reps on the 2nd set, except rows n dead lifts, i actually hurt myself doing rows, was attempting to try out parallel , when i felt a sting on my lower back, non the less i continued with the whole workout, I decided to take it easy and lay off the weights n cardio till Monday , I believe the sting in my lower back is not too serious as it hurt when bending after my workout and a lil the day after, but it seems to be recuperating fine now, on my next rows session i will stick to .45 angle and see how it goes.

I have a couple options as to how to tackle this:

1, Up my calories n macros to maintnance at 2100 cal 155p/230c/62f, now i already upped my cal since 8/20 and hoping by monday heavy day my body will have more energy power to lift heavy, i will continue were i left off , by the way i already changed my reps on this program from 8-12 reps to 6-10 reps about a month n half ago.

2.Keep cutting at 1800cal 155p/180c/50f , but lower the weights by %15 or even %20 if need it be and try to keep the reps of 6-10.

On this board and other health sites , i hear people say that when cutting its not too important to lift heavy as its normal that you will loose power on a cal defecit , then there are people that say the opposite, lift heavy on a cut to reduce muscle loss.

I think i will go with option 1 first and since im at maintnance when i cut it wont take so long.

[nightanole]

OK, I just added a few reps here and there, mainly on light days because I'm usually not sore at all. As for the SL deadlift, I feel next to nothing in my hamstrings, sometimes I do try to picture me driving my heels through the platform I'm standing on which seems to help hit the hammies a little. I'm not very flexible so maybe I shouldn't be going all the way down to the top of my feet with the bar as well. I know it's a good exercise but it is kind of a bummer not getting it right after like 5 weeks. I'll try focusing more on it next week, maybe the added weight will actually help a little in terms of form.

Odds are you are really rounding your back if you can touch the bar with your toes. When most people start they cant get much lower than the knees without getting a flat back.

[nightanole]

for the last 3 months, i been cutting at 1800 cal 155p/180c/50f, my TEE is 2180cal, as you can see its not that aggressive of a cut, I was doing great at the begining , my lifts were going up, felt great energy wise , all that came to a stop 8/18/2014 on my heavy day i failed most of my reps on the 2nd set, except rows n dead lifts, i actually hurt myself doing rows, was attempting to try out parallel , when i felt a sting on my lower back, non the less i continued with the whole workout, I decided to take it easy and lay off the weights n cardio till Monday , I believe the sting in my lower back is not too serious as it hurt when bending after my workout and a lil the day after, but it seems to be recuperating fine now, on my next rows session i will stick to .45 angle and see how it goes.

I have a couple options as to how to tackle this:

1, Up my calories n macros to maintnance at 2100 cal 155p/230c/62f, now i already upped my cal since 8/20 and hoping by monday heavy day my body will have more energy power to lift heavy, i will continue were i left off , by the way i already changed my reps on this program from 8-12 reps to 6-10 reps about a month n half ago.

2.Keep cutting at 1800cal 155p/180c/50f , but lower the weights by %15 or even %20 if need it be and try to keep the reps of 6-10.

On this board and other health sites , i hear people say that when cutting its not too important to lift heavy as its normal that you will loose power on a cal defecit , then there are people that say the opposite, lift heavy on a cut to reduce muscle loss.

I think i will go with option 1 first and since im at maintnance when i cut it wont take so long.

Oh boy...

Im in the "on a cut reduce volume but keep peak weight and frequency" camp. You should never have to reduce the weight on a cut. Reducing weight means atrophy is setting in because the calories (odds are carbs) got cut too deep. I mentioned several times before, on a cut make sure you hit every rep on weeks 1-3, you can only miss reps on 11-12 rep weeks. If you are missing reps on weeks 1-3 you are cutting too deep.

As for what to do, first since you are doing 6-10, you MAY have to add one more set to the first 3 lifts, its mandatory if you switch to the novice version which is 4-8 reps. Other than that id switch to your maintenance cals, they look more inline for a lifting male. once you start lifting heavier that maintenance will turn into a deficit within 2 cycles.

[LiftSleepEat]

thanks pottertons and nightanole for the detailed explanations.

will buy the wrist straps and see if that helps. cheers.

[Pottertons]

thanks pottertons and nightanole for the detailed explanations.

will buy the wrist straps and see if that helps. cheers.

Oh by the way. (just to confuse you even more) it seems as though i may have been incorrect. For future reference, take Night's advice about 10 years before mine.

That said, i myself am still a little confused, because i use the version that's in the AllPro playlist. Whereas in the video that Night posted, those are actually RDL's. After reading through a bunch of threads and articles both on here and on other sites as well as watching a bunch of videos. It seems to be a never ending debate. No matter who many i've watched, there is always a slew of responses that say "that's an RDL not an SLDL" vice versa.

I've personally tried both and as a total beginner, I like the AllPro video version.

http://youtu.be/bfPOgqBBzVA?list=PL8FAF74A332E11464

Why? Because i'm a rookie which more than likely means that my back is not yet up to par. And being that both versions hit the hamstrings and glutes (which is the aim in this routine) I feel much more secure whilst performing the movement which allows me to focus on really hitting the target area. The other version, I felt that there was much more strain on the lower back.

[RebornGC45]

Would adding upright rows be (with no curls) a good addition for my 4th cycle? Or maybe some more back exercises or chest

[Voxmusculus]

Nope beginner comes first here. Novice is when the weight gets heavy, you switch to 3 sets of 4-8 reps for a few cycles, then you can start intermediate v2, which is 4 sets of 4-8 reps.

You're right -- I stand corrected.

[onoratofelix]

should i use whey protein for accelerating the process ?
and i have just recovered from scaphoid fracture, should i lower the weight and add reps or just do it normally ?

[LuizLeandroG]

Would adding upright rows be (with no curls) a good addition for my 4th cycle? Or maybe some more back exercises or chest

I went up to 5 cycles of All Pro with upright rows replacing biceps curls and I am happy with the results.

[Pottertons]

I went up to 5 cycles of All Pro with upright rows replacing biceps curls and I am happy with the results.

What's the benefit (if any) of doing upright rows instead?

Just curious.

[noobgains87]

going to start out on this programme i think, looks good!

[LuizLeandroG]

What's the benefit (if any) of doing upright rows instead?

Just curious.

It is a compound movement, so I gues you are hiting more muscles (I'm not sure, I'm no especialist!). All Pro said he just put curls there because people would do them anyway, and because some people can't do upright rows because of anatomy limitations (don't know if it's true as well, just saw someone saying this more than once around here).

I went to the gym in the past and the instructor would pay too much attention to the arms, and I would end up totally umbalanced. With All Pro I felt like my body became much more proportional, and I think not focusing too much in arms work has something to do with it.