For those who complain about slow progression in 5/3/1

[bravo96]

I honestly do not get the argument that 5/3/1's progression rate is so ****ty and slow.

I constantly here people bitching about how it's not fast enough and that it's only for really advanced lifters... Adding 60lbs to your bench and 120lbs to your squat in a year is great progress for ANYONE once past the initial beginner stage.

People really need to start focusing on the long term and less on I need to add 5 lbs to every lift every workout. This may work fine at the start, but continue to try and do this you will end up stalling and spinning your wheels or even potentially cause injury....

Take someone who just spent say 6 months on any beginner routine and got there lifts to
Squat -265
Bench press -195
Dead lift -330

Now this person spends one full year running 5/3/1 and does it exactly by the book. His lifts now would be
Squat -385
Bench press -255
Dead lift -450

Not bad huh?

Now let's say this person runs it for another straight year, again by the book.
His lifts would be
Squat -505
Bench press - 315
Dead lift -570

Said person now has a 1390lb total after only 2 and a half years lifting... How is that in anyway SLOW progress!!!!? How many people do you know that have done this?

Now a lot of people would need a reset during this time and wouldn't achieve those lifts, but still could be pretty close to them. **** even a 1200lb total after only 2 and a half years ain't shabby.

Slow, steady and consistent progress of some form. Will always trump the idiots who think they can simply just keep going balls to the walls shooting for pr's every single workout.

[SuffolkPunch]

I've said the same thing before too in general terms... planned progression =/= actual progression

You can plan for the fastest progression you like but that doesn't mean it will happen. It's demotivating running a program where you are expecting rapid progress but keep stalling out and resetting.

[jamesovercome]

Any program that's going to claim to add "x" pounds to your lifts I question. Also, you act like weight is the only variable which defines progress.
This is why I've relied on progressive overload and care about hitting one of these three every week: more weight, more reps or less rest between sets. I damn sure don't add 5lbs to my lifts every week but I make progress and because of how flexible that criteria is I'm more positive about my gym sessions and think "Okay I didn't bench more but I hit this set for one more rep than last week."

[Retardo-pex]

I honestly do not get the argument that 5/3/1's progression rate is so ****ty and slow.

I constantly here people bitching about how it's not fast enough and that it's only for really advanced lifters... Adding 60lbs to your bench and 120lbs to your squat in a year is great progress for ANYONE once past the initial beginner stage.

People really need to start focusing on the long term and less on I need to add 5 lbs to every lift every workout. This may work fine at the start, but continue to try and do this you will end up stalling and spinning your wheels or even potentially cause injury....

Take someone who just spent say 6 months on any beginner routine and got there lifts to
Squat -265
Bench press -195
Dead lift -330

Now this person spends one full year running 5/3/1 and does it exactly by the book. His lifts now would be
Squat -385
Bench press -255
Dead lift -450

Not bad huh?

Now let's say this person runs it for another straight year, again by the book.
His lifts would be
Squat -505
Bench press - 315
Dead lift -570

Said person now has a 1390lb total after only 2 and a half years lifting... How is that in anyway SLOW progress!!!!? How many people do you know that have done this?

Now a lot of people would need a reset during this time and wouldn't achieve those lifts, but still could be pretty close to them. **** even a 1200lb total after only 2 and a half years ain't shabby.

Slow, steady and consistent progress of some form. Will always trump the idiots who think they can simply just keep going balls to the walls shooting for pr's every single workout.

Because realistically that isn't what is going to happen. You don't just gain gain gain forever. it would be nice but its not how it goes down. The other issue is a newer lifter or an experienced lifter getting into athletics or more specifically powerlifting or another strength based sport, needs more freqeuncy than the standard 5/3/1 model provides. Each lift once a week for almost no volume unless you do boring but big for assistance, is not ideal for maximizing strength gains. The general rule of thumb is bench and squat at least twice a week and deadlift once. This is a start point. If you go on youtube you can find other powerlifters who train each lift several times a week, altering intensity and volume.

Basically at this point you can probably find a "5/3/1" program that has been specialized to break these barriers. When people speak of 5/3/1, they are generally referring to the original program, the one that has articles from 4-5 years ago posted all over the internet and the one most spreadsheets are designed around.

If your goal is to increase your one rep max, then yes staying on 5/3/1 for a year will certainly do this. If your goal is to increase your max asap, and you aren't a veteran powerlifter/strongman, there are better programs suited for your ability to progress. GZCL, texas method, 5x5, all are superior (imo) to the novice/intermediate strength athlete.

[bravo96]

Because realistically that isn't what is going to happen. You don't just gain gain gain forever. it would be nice but its not how it goes down. The other issue is a newer lifter or an experienced lifter getting into athletics or more specifically powerlifting or another strength based sport, needs more freqeuncy than the standard 5/3/1 model provides. Each lift once a week for almost no volume unless you do boring but big for assistance, is not ideal for maximizing strength gains. The general rule of thumb is bench and squat at least twice a week and deadlift once. This is a start point. If you go on youtube you can find other powerlifters who train each lift several times a week, altering intensity and volume.

Basically at this point you can probably find a "5/3/1" program that has been specialized to break these barriers. When people speak of 5/3/1, they are generally referring to the original program, the one that has articles from 4-5 years ago posted all over the internet and the one most spreadsheets are designed around.

If your goal is to increase your one rep max, then yes staying on 5/3/1 for a year will certainly do this. If your goal is to increase your max asap, and you aren't a veteran powerlifter/strongman, there are better programs suited for your ability to progress. GZCL, texas method, 5x5, all are superior (imo) to the novice/intermediate strength athlete.

I said that this will not happen for a lot of people, yet people actually count this as slow progress.

I could also go on YouTube and find tons of powerlifter that hit the main lifts once a week... Coan and kirk for example. If your concerned about frequency that just increase it, not hard.

You said it yourself that 5/3/1's rate of progression isn't sustainable over the long term, yet still insist that even faster progression is better.

I'm also aware that there is more than one form of progressive overload, but my original point still stands.

[Wildtim]

5,3,1 does, quite simply have slower planned progression than many other programs out there. Therefore it is not what I would recommend to a beginner or intermediate athlete. Of course thats not who the program was originally designed for.

I think a lot of teens running any version of this program should go back to the very first edition and read the introduction to the program. They would find that it is a lower volume program designed for guys who still want to work out and get stronger but for whom the gym is no longer their top priority. Guys who are trying to balance work, a home, a wife, kids, and all that goes along with that as well as lifting weights.

On another program a guy who pretty much has nothing going on but school/work and the gym can and often does progress much faster. For them 5,3,1 would be slowing them down, retarding what they can achieve because they can place a higher priority on working out than the guys who should be running the original version of this program.

[bravo96]

5,3,1 does, quite simply have slower planned progression than many other programs out there. Therefore it is not what I would recommend to a beginner or intermediate athlete. Of course thats not who the program was originally designed for.

I think a lot of teens running any version of this program should go back to the very first edition and read the introduction to the program. They would find that it is a lower volume program designed for guys who still want to work out and get stronger but for whom the gym is no longer their top priority. Guys who are trying to balance work, a home, a wife, kids, and all that goes along with that as well as lifting weights.

On another program a guy who pretty much has nothing going on but school/work and the gym can and often does progress much faster. For them 5,3,1 would be slowing them down, retarding what they can achieve because they can place a higher priority on working out than the guys who should be running the original version of this program.

Some templates are lower volume, there are also higher volume templates. Please post examples of people who have progressed a lot faster than my example in the op. Once past the absolute beginner stage 60 lbs on bench and 120 on squat is great progress.

[beardb]

The reason people say it is slow to progress is because people like to see the 10 pound jumps from week to week, but we both know that is not sustainable and often times attributable things other than actual strength increases like proper sleep or a better overall diet. I think the problem is that a lot of people want to go into the gym and go balls to the wall and feel obliterated when they leave. I ran the triumvirate, and it was so damn boring. I'm not saying it wouldn't have worked, but I only made it a short period because there was not enough volume. 5/3/1 (the original basic program) is not for me; however, the progression could be used on main lifts with other accessory work and higher volume work, then it might be suitable for me.

[Wildtim]

Some templates are lower volume, there are also higher volume templates. Please post examples of people who have progressed a lot faster than my example in the op. Once past the absolute beginner stage 60 lbs on bench and 120 on squat is great progress.

There are tons of guys who have run SS who have ended up with numbers higher than your example has in far less than the eighteen months your example takes.

Its math. 5,3,1 takes a year to progress as much as SS in 8 weeks. For the complete beginner, like 90% of the guys who read this section, 5,3,1 is not the program that they should be running at this point.

I'm not saying it isn't a great program, I've been running it religiously for over six months now, it just isn't the fastest progress out there and to claim any different is just stupid. For the guy who the program was written for it is great progress and running can help a guy further along in his lifting career follow a structured progression plan that keeps him from spinning his wheels.

[bravo96]

There are tons of guys who have run SS who have ended up with numbers higher than your example has in far less than the eighteen months your example takes.

Its math. 5,3,1 takes a year to progress as much as SS in 8 weeks. For the complete beginner, like 90% of the guys who read this section, 5,3,1 is not the program that they should be running at this point.

I'm not saying it isn't a great program, I've been running it religiously for over six months now, it just isn't the fastest progress out there and to claim any different is just stupid. For the guy who the program was written for it is great progress and running can help a guy further along in his lifting career follow a structured progression plan that keeps him from spinning his wheels.

I'm my op I said beginners could progress at a faster rate! My example was based on someone having run ss or similar for a period of time.

I never told a rank beginner to use 5/3/1 you must have missed that.... I said once past the beginner stage progress on 5/3/1 is nowhere near as slow as people make it out to be.

Ohh and in regards to people coming of starting strength with a 255lb bench, 385lb squat, and 450 lb deadlift where are all these people? I've only ever heard of 1 success story like this and the kid was coached by rip from day one, he also gained over 50 lbs in a 3 month period. He is an outlier not the average.

[BuffMaltese]

I agree with OP. I do 5/3/1 BBB (less boring) so I squat, DL, Bench, & OHP twice a week. I've been making steady improvement whereas I stalled hard on linear progression programs (earlier than I thought I would/supposed to), and it took be a too long to figure out that I just couldn't squat heavy 3x a week. I was averaging adding 0-5 lbs a month of several lifts because of frequent resets rather than 5 lbs a workout. Recovery issue? idk, it just wasn't working for me.

I never got the lack of volume argument for 5/3/1, you can do BBB, drop sets, and there is also so much versatility in what you can do for your accessories...

Nothing is holding back your strength gains on 5/3/1, its just not always measured with lbs added but with reps added (on your last working set you do as many reps as possible)

[bravo96]

I agree with OP. I do 5/3/1 BBB (less boring) so I squat, DL, Bench, & OHP twice a week. I've been making steady improvement whereas I stalled hard on linear progression programs (earlier than I thought I would/supposed to), and it took be a too long to figure out that I just couldn't squat heavy 3x a week. I was averaging adding 0-5 lbs a month of several lifts because of frequent resets rather than 5 lbs a workout. Recovery issue? idk, it just wasn't working for me.

I never got the lack of volume argument for 5/3/1, you can do BBB, drop sets, and there is also so much versatility in what you can do for your accessories...

Nothing is holding back your strength gains on 5/3/1, its just not always measured with lbs added but with reps added (on your last working set you do as many reps as possible)

People claiming 5/3/1 is a lower volume routine must have missed half the templates in the original book...
BBB
Bodybuilding template
And Dave Tate's periodization bible inspired template.

All moderate to high volume. I wonder if anyone arguing has even read the book??

[beardb]

Not arguing. Just stating I did the triumvirate which was very low volume. I never read the book. I read Wendler's articles where he addressed the triumvirate, and I went off that template.

[bravo96]

Not arguing. Just stating I did the triumvirate which was very low volume. I never read the book. I read Wendler's articles where he addressed the triumvirate, and I went off that template.

No I was agreeing with you mate. It's an easily adaptable program to higher or low volume. There are also templates from the original book. That cover both styles.

[jgreystoke]

Ohh and in regards to people coming of starting strength with a 255lb bench, 385lb squat, and 450 lb deadlift where are all these people? I've only ever heard of 1 success story like this and the kid was coached by rip from day one, he also gained over 50 lbs in a 3 month period. He is an outlier not the average.

And much of that 50lb gain was fat.

[bravo96]

And much of that 50lb gain was fat.

Yes it was.

[Retardo-pex]

I said that this will not happen for a lot of people, yet people actually count this as slow progress.

I could also go on YouTube and find tons of powerlifter that hit the main lifts once a week... Coan and kirk for example. If your concerned about frequency that just increase it, not hard.

You said it yourself that 5/3/1's rate of progression isn't sustainable over the long term, yet still insist that even faster progression is better.

I'm also aware that there is more than one form of progressive overload, but my original point still stands.

I was answering your post title. Compared to many programs 5/3/1 progress is ****ty and slow depending on the lifter performing it. Someone who can progress on 5x5 or SS or any other program that has you increasing your lifts by more than 5-10 lbs a month, these people would benefit from something other than 5/3/1. If you are an active powerlifter, the standard 5/3/1 model is less than ideal. If you are someone who potnetially wants to powerlift as you have been lifting for a few years and want to go to the next level, but have no set competition date other than " in the next few years" maybe 5/3/1 will be fine for you, it still wouldn't necessarily be ideal.

I don't dislike 5/3/1 at all, I just know that a lot of the time there are more efficient ways to get stronger faster depending on your level of development. Think of it this way, even in the instances of Coan and Kirk, they are doing more than one true work set for their competition lifts ( and there is plenty of writing showing coan bench heavy once and light once per week as well) GZCL on reddit/his blog wrote it out almost perfectly, the more you lift the better you get, and that is not in relation to weight. Every warm up rep counts towards your weekly tonnage. If you compared something like 5/3/1 to even a generic westside methods outline, you can see that even when your main heavy work is not your competition lift, you still get more volume/frequency over a training period than you generally would on the standard 5/3/1 model, hence why 5 years later there are 100+ 5/3/1 based templates that in several cases barely follow the 5/3/1 "principles" outlined in the original book.

Basically if all your bench work on 5/3/1, as in you actually doing flat bench press work, is warm ups followed by the 5 3 or 5/3/1 work sets as written, you do 10 light reps and on month 1 week 1 maybe 12-15 work reps with the heaviest weight set for the 5+ day. Then you move onto assistance. Boring but big is the best option simply due to spending more time doing the competition lifts. Now compare to something like 5x5, you work up to a heavyish set of 52 or 3 days a week. Not only are you loading significantly heavier than you would with 5/3/1 but you are doing it more often and you even do more "practice" reps with the ascending sets of 5. At the end of the week you still are only hitting 12-15 work reps per lift but the weight is already significantly heavier than it would be on 5/3/1, even when it will still feel light and easy. Then you are adding about 5 lbs a week to these lifts rather than 5 lbs a month.

In short, 5/3/1 is not bad, its simply not ideal for everyone at every level, otherwise everyone would run it based on the stats from your initial post. Its a solid way to get stronger over time, its just not optimal, especially when you get into specific sports etc.

[Retardo-pex]

Some templates are lower volume, there are also higher volume templates. Please post examples of people who have progressed a lot faster than my example in the op. Once past the absolute beginner stage 60 lbs on bench and 120 on squat is great progress.

Except you aren't adding 60 and 120 even if you don't stall in a full year. If my bench 1rm is 300 lbs, I will be basing all of my training maxes off of 270. I don't have a spreadhseet in front of me but if memory serves your first month that means the most weight you will move in month 1 is 255, with week one day one being closer to 205. Hit your minimums and then add 5 lbs a month so on etc. 12 months down the road your heaviest lift ( your 1+ on the 5/3/1 weeks) should be around 315. Now if on week 3 day 1 bench press you can hit 255x3 ( not ridiculous if your max is 300) and on month 12 you can hit 315x3, then there is your 60 lbs increase in a 3 rep max form. Do you really think most people need a year to add 15 lbs and two reps to their lifts? When I started powerlifting I added about 50 lbs to my deadlift in less than 3 months.

This is my only point. Not a bad way to gain strength or train at all, just simply sub-optimal for many situations.

[Retardo-pex]

People claiming 5/3/1 is a lower volume routine must have missed half the templates in the original book...
BBB
Bodybuilding template
And Dave Tate's periodization bible inspired template.

All moderate to high volume. I wonder if anyone arguing has even read the book??

Average weekly volume for the main lifts if we are talking strength, average weekly volume per muscle group if we are talking looking nice. None of the templates from the original 5/3/1 book would be considered a high volume routine for a bodybuilder or powerlifter. Boring but big is considered the best almost entirely for this reason.

[UTREGT]

1 lift per week is not enough for the natural lifter.

i like to squat/bench/deadlift 4x per week @80% for strength.

[FinTheFox]

I think at the end of the day, regardless of the routine - you can only progress so far in a given amount of time. For some people, this number will be higher while others it will be lower.

[UTREGT]

I think at the end of the day, regardless of the routine - you can only progress so far in a given amount of time. For some people, this number will be higher while others it will be lower.

This comment is funny in so many ways.

[bravo96]

1 lift per week is not enough for the natural lifter.

i like to squat/bench/deadlift 4x per week @80% for strength.

Bull**** tons of people make great gains hitting the big 3 on there own specific days. Your also obviously not very strong if you can deadlift 4x a week....