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  1. #4891
    Ipsum esse subsistens Athanasius90's Avatar
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    Those books will really rustle my financial jimmies....
    "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

    - Socrates



    “Every scientific man in order to preserve his reputation has to say he dislikes metaphysics. What he means is he dislikes having his metaphysics criticized.”

    -Alfred North Whitehead

  2. #4892
    Crypto-Theist Shill lasher's Avatar
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    Papal bulls protecting Jews.

    Sicut Judaeis

    ut Judaeis (Latin: "As the Jews") was a papal bull setting out the official position of the papacy regarding the treatment of Jews.

    The first bull was issued in about 1120 by Calixtus II and was intended to protect Jews. It was prompted by the First Crusade, during which over five thousand Jews were slaughtered in Europe. The words sicut Judaeis ("and thus to the Jews") were first used by Pope Gregory I (590-604) in a letter addressed to the Bishop of Naples. Even then the Pope emphasized that Jews were entitled to "enjoy their lawful liberty."[1]

    The bull was reaffirmed by many popes including Alexander III, Celestine III (1191-1198), Innocent III (1199), Honorius III (1216), Gregory IX (1235), Innocent IV (1246), Alexander IV (1255), Urban IV (1262), Gregory X (1272 & 1274), Nicholas III, Martin IV (1281), Honorius IV (1285-1287), Nicholas IV (1288-92), Clement VI (1348), Urban V (1365), Boniface IX (1389), Martin V (1422), and Nicholas V (1447).[2][3]

    The bull forbade Christians, on pain of excommunication, from forcing Jews to convert, from harming them, from taking their property, from disturbing the celebration of their festivals, and from interfering with their cemeteries.

    The bull of 1120 was not the first papal expression against the mistreatment of Jews. In 1065, for example, Pope Alexander II wrote to Branger, Viscount of Narbonne, and to Guifred, bishop of the city, praising them for having prevented the massacre of the Jews in their district, and reminding them that God does not approve of the shedding of blood. In 1065 also, Alexander admonished Landulf VI of Benevento "that the conversion of Jews is not to be obtained by force."[4]

    Esti Judaeos

    Jews were allowed their own houses of worship and would not be forced to convert. Jews were forbidden to eat with Christians or own Christian slaves.[17]

    Etsi Judaeorum
    ("Even if the Jews")


    Demands that Jews in Christian countries be treated with the same humanity with which Christians wish to be treated in heathen lands
    Sufficere debuerat

    Forbids Christians to dispute on matters of faith with Jews
    Divina justitia nequaquam

    Condemns against blood libel against Jews
    Lachrymabilem Judaeorum

    Urged the end of persecution of the Jews based the blood libel
    Orat mater ecclesia
    To protect the Roman Jews from oppress

    Boniface IX
    Grants privileges to Roman Jewsreducing their taxes, ordering their Sabbath to be protected, placing them under the jurisdiction of the Curia, protecting them from oppression by officials; all Jews and Jewesses dwelling in the city to be regarded and treated as Roman citizens

    Licet Judorum omnium
    In favor of Austrian Jews[27]

    Quamquam Judi
    Places Roman Jews under the general civic law, protects them from forcible baptism, and permits them to teach in the school
    Pope Eudien V
    Prohibiting anti-Jewish sermons
    And last but not least.

    Nostre Aetate

    As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)

    Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

    True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

    Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

    Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.
    So while it cannot be denied that the Catholic Church, over 2000 years, has been hist and miss with regard to jews. It is widely recognized now that the closer a Jewish community was geographically to Rome, the safer it was.
    'On many levels, mathematics itself operates as Whiteness. Who gets credit for doing and developing mathematics, who is capable in mathematics, and who is seen as part of the mathematical community is generally viewed as White' - Rochelle Gutierrez, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Illinois.

  3. #4893
    Registered User Ehsaun's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lasher View Post
    And yet Pius XII was a proponent and gave his sanction and support to the establishment of National Israel. Popes are human beings. They don't always agree with each other and they sometimes have conflicting opinions no human and political affairs.
    I agree with St Pius X tho mad?
    he was:
    Alpha as ****
    Reactionary
    Traditionalist
    Looked like a mafia boss

  4. #4894
    Crypto-Theist Shill lasher's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ehsaun View Post
    I agree with St Pius X tho mad?
    he was:
    Alpha as ****
    Reactionary
    Traditionalist
    Looked like a mafia boss

    lol, I got nothing.
    'On many levels, mathematics itself operates as Whiteness. Who gets credit for doing and developing mathematics, who is capable in mathematics, and who is seen as part of the mathematical community is generally viewed as White' - Rochelle Gutierrez, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Illinois.

  5. #4895
    It's Over 9000!!! rdferguson's Avatar
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    This weekend's been emotionally intense. Coming to terms with people at church opening up about being sexually abused; heavily addicted to porn; one guy who was engaged to a girl all the while having frequent promiscuous hook-ups with other guys in public toilets; and another guy finally told me why he went MIA for a couple months last year -- because he was in a mental hospital after multiple suicide attempts.

    The polite, comfortable, happy middle-class exterior is deceptive.
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  6. #4896
    runonsentencesareawesome Indivdude's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rdferguson View Post
    This weekend's been emotionally intense. Coming to terms with people at church opening up about being sexually abused; heavily addicted to porn; one guy who was engaged to a girl all the while having frequent promiscuous hook-ups with other guys in public toilets; and another guy finally told me why he went MIA for a couple months last year -- because he was in a mental hospital after multiple suicide attempts.

    The polite, comfortable, happy middle-class exterior is deceptive.


    Yeah. Good luck with all that.
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  7. #4897
    It's Over 9000!!! rdferguson's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Indivdude View Post


    Yeah. Good luck with all that.
    The world's a broken, messy place full of broken, messy people. That being my greatest lament, my second-greatest lament is that we go out of our ways to try and hide how broken and messy we all are. I appreciate when the veneer of perfection is stripped away. Tangentially, I think this song gets a lot right about humanity.

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  8. #4898
    ♚ Elected V.P. - R/P ♚ sawoobley's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rdferguson View Post
    The world's a broken, messy place full of broken, messy people. That being my greatest lament, my second-greatest lament is that we go out of our ways to try and hide how broken and messy we all are. I appreciate when the veneer of perfection is stripped away. Tangentially, I think this song gets a lot right about humanity.
    I dunno man if the veneer was completely stripped away the world would look like the zombie apocalypse. Maybe it's better to keep the veneer most of the time until people can become perfected through Christ.

  9. #4899
    Fast Misc DizzySmalls's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rdferguson View Post
    This weekend's been emotionally intense. Coming to terms with people at church opening up about being sexually abused; heavily addicted to porn; one guy who was engaged to a girl all the while having frequent promiscuous hook-ups with other guys in public toilets; and another guy finally told me why he went MIA for a couple months last year -- because he was in a mental hospital after multiple suicide attempts.

    The polite, comfortable, happy middle-class exterior is deceptive.
    There's no reason to stop being polite just because you engage in trashy behavior. That's always been my motto anyways

    Do you volunteer in some support group capacity, or did people actually bring this up publicly at your church? I can't personally picture someone telling the congregation that they have gay sex in public toilets.
    Last edited by DizzySmalls; 10-12-2014 at 05:21 PM.

  10. #4900
    Yeshua is Messiah CalmWind's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rdferguson View Post
    This weekend's been emotionally intense. Coming to terms with people at church opening up about being sexually abused; heavily addicted to porn; one guy who was engaged to a girl all the while having frequent promiscuous hook-ups with other guys in public toilets; and another guy finally told me why he went MIA for a couple months last year -- because he was in a mental hospital after multiple suicide attempts.

    The polite, comfortable, happy middle-class exterior is deceptive.
    I stopped going to my church group like 4 months ago. One of the girls made it uncomfortable for me and I was already having issues with the Pastor's odd behavior, so I stopped going. The girl is a freshman college chick who was hard crushing on me and asking me for hugs and being loud around me to get noticed, just being really weird wanting to be near me all the time with her friends and distracting me and taking the focus of the group away from God. Meanwhile the Pastor, even after volunteering at homeless shelters and being a part of many church events for many months, was sort of suspicious about me for some reason. He would ask me weird questions about my career or my faith. Until one day he seemed to be more "convinced" I was legit with some random "you truly are a man of god", but then he went back again the next week with stuff like "but didn't you say X? i thought you said X but now it's different" (he was convinced I said something that I never said) and went back to suspicion mode.



    Since then I haven't bothered to join a church group again. Which is probably why I spend a lot of my free internet time on here, you guys are kind of like a church fellowship I suppose.

    Also I think that having fellowship is great and helpful, but not really required. My prayers, my Bible, and my Father in Heaven is all that is really needed.
    Last edited by CalmWind; 10-12-2014 at 05:58 PM.
    "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me." - Psalm 23

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  11. #4901
    Facilitating the i̵̬͠l̴̺͒ Harbinger's Avatar
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    ^^^ you poor boy ...
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    Registered User confuoco's Avatar
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    Don't give up, Calmwind. We are a body & can't exist in isolation. Hebrews 10:23-25 & such. Plus communion is a sacrament we uphold together.

    Ferguson, total sympathy with what you're saying. I'm not a fan of automatically making other Christians my confessional. Some study groups pressure you, but I'm private & won't parade myself indiscriminately. We've got all types of people and some are still too immature, sarcastic or uptight to be trusted with the difficulties of other people's private lives. Sexual sin is such an important issue to address, but the advice I've heard, even if it's doctrinally correct, is completely childish in delivery. It's no wonder people hide their struggles.

    There's a book, I Told Me So: Self-Deception & the Christian Life by Gregg Ten Elshof, that I wish every Christian would read.

    For myself, I've compiled my own private 'stategic panel' & know who will respond maturely depending on the circumstance, but still don't have everyone I need. I have to make an effort to adjust some of my reactions so people feel comfortable being open with me.

    It helps to not feel ownership of other ppl. Men have that advantage - they can tell you what you need to hear & get on with their lives, but women are prone to be overbearing & competitive. I've had serious regret after disclosing things to women who used it as an opportunity for comparison & dominance and would never forget mistakes. We suck sometimes. Authentic humility & giving ppl margins to admit failure would go a long way.

    And that's pretty much as open as I'm going to get here...

  13. #4903
    Ipsum esse subsistens Athanasius90's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CalmWind View Post
    I stopped going to my church group like 4 months ago. One of the girls made it uncomfortable for me and I was already having issues with the Pastor's odd behavior, so I stopped going. The girl is a freshman college chick who was hard crushing on me and asking me for hugs and being loud around me to get noticed, just being really weird wanting to be near me all the time with her friends and distracting me and taking the focus of the group away from God. Meanwhile the Pastor, even after volunteering at homeless shelters and being a part of many church events for many months, was sort of suspicious about me for some reason. He would ask me weird questions about my career or my faith. Until one day he seemed to be more "convinced" I was legit with some random "you truly are a man of god", but then he went back again the next week with stuff like "but didn't you say X? i thought you said X but now it's different" (he was convinced I said something that I never said) and went back to suspicion mode.



    Since then I haven't bothered to join a church group again. Which is probably why I spend a lot of my free internet time on here, you guys are kind of like a church fellowship I suppose.

    Also I think that having fellowship is great and helpful, but not really required. My prayers, my Bible, and my Father in Heaven is all that is really needed.
    Remember, physical buildings were not considered the cornerstone of churches for the early Christians. Ecclesiasta is best approximated as a gathering of people, which can just as easily be online nowadays.

    Besides, you tend to find the most articulate conversation partners online.
    "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

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  14. #4904
    ♚ Elected V.P. - R/P ♚ sawoobley's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lasher View Post
    nvm
    Don't worry. Already took a screen shot.


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    Ipsum esse subsistens Athanasius90's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sawoobley View Post
    Don't worry. Already took a screen shot.

    always hate it when you see posts like this. You're forever left wondering what they posted....
    "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

    - Socrates



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  16. #4906
    occasional visitor stephanielynn76's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rdferguson View Post
    This weekend's been emotionally intense. Coming to terms with people at church opening up about being sexually abused; heavily addicted to porn; one guy who was engaged to a girl all the while having frequent promiscuous hook-ups with other guys in public toilets; and another guy finally told me why he went MIA for a couple months last year -- because he was in a mental hospital after multiple suicide attempts.

    The polite, comfortable, happy middle-class exterior is deceptive.
    Originally Posted by rdferguson View Post
    The world's a broken, messy place full of broken, messy people. That being my greatest lament, my second-greatest lament is that we go out of our ways to try and hide how broken and messy we all are. I appreciate when the veneer of perfection is stripped away. Tangentially, I think this song gets a lot right about humanity.
    I love your sentiment here. I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, I have also learned (the hard way I might add) that there is a time and place for bearing one's soul. With maturity comes discernment and some situations and individuals just cannot handle that much real life. I once broke down in a women's bible study and confessed the abuse I'd suffered. It did not go over well. Rather than feeling validated... I left feeling humiliated. The shame I was carrying was now compounded by the embarrassment I felt for having been so completely vulnerable. No one knew what to say. No one acknowledged my pain. No one gave me hope. It was just awful. However 10 years later, I found my "safe place" within a group from our church called the "Wounded Hearts." It was a closed group specifically for those who had experienced sexual abuse. Our motto was… "When we tell, we get well." Those women and the things we shared with one another were the most real and healing conversations I've ever had. I could be loved, accepted, and validated IN MY MESSINESS. It was the only place I ever felt liberated enough to face my shame and self-contempt and get some victory over it. This is how I believe the body of Christ is supposed to operate. When we don't peel off our "veneers of perfection" then there is no vulnerability and therefore no ACCOUNTABILITY. I now have a very small group of mature Christian friends. We are real. We are messy. We are "in each other's business." We are iron sharpening iron… and that does not happen without authenticity. I just wish there were more people willing to get on that level. I suspect there aren't because some Christians just love their sin too much to confess it. They don't want to have to be held accountable for it. As for me, when it comes to friends I'd rather have (and be) an authentic mess than contend with a room full of concealed ones.

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    pope francis getting more leftist every day.

    RCC is going to be solely about social justice in a few more years.

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    Originally Posted by sawoobley View Post
    I dunno man if the veneer was completely stripped away the world would look like the zombie apocalypse. Maybe it's better to keep the veneer most of the time until people can become perfected through Christ.
    Before we were made alive in Christ, we were all dead in our transgressions. We are in a zombie apocalypse until we become perfected through Christ.
    Originally Posted by DizzySmalls View Post
    There's no reason to stop being polite just because you engage in trashy behavior. That's always been my motto anyways

    Do you volunteer in some support group capacity, or did people actually bring this up publicly at your church? I can't personally picture someone telling the congregation that they have gay sex in public toilets.
    I think you misunderstood what I meant by polite, given the context. My point was the tendency of church people to put up a facade that everything's going right.

    No support group. Some of this was private, but a lot of it was public, including toilet sex (that was part of his life story, not what's going on right now, BTW).
    Originally Posted by CalmWind View Post
    I stopped going to my church group like 4 months ago. One of the girls made it uncomfortable for me and I was already having issues with the Pastor's odd behavior, so I stopped going. The girl is a freshman college chick who was hard crushing on me and asking me for hugs and being loud around me to get noticed, just being really weird wanting to be near me all the time with her friends and distracting me and taking the focus of the group away from God. Meanwhile the Pastor, even after volunteering at homeless shelters and being a part of many church events for many months, was sort of suspicious about me for some reason. He would ask me weird questions about my career or my faith. Until one day he seemed to be more "convinced" I was legit with some random "you truly are a man of god", but then he went back again the next week with stuff like "but didn't you say X? i thought you said X but now it's different" (he was convinced I said something that I never said) and went back to suspicion mode.

    Since then I haven't bothered to join a church group again. Which is probably why I spend a lot of my free internet time on here, you guys are kind of like a church fellowship I suppose.

    Also I think that having fellowship is great and helpful, but not really required. My prayers, my Bible, and my Father in Heaven is all that is really needed.
    That's tricky. The girl's a nuisance, but I'm more concerned about the pastor there, as it sounds like he doesn't know how to approach people. Pastors should be asking questions to find out where people are at with God, both for the individual's sake and for the community's sake. But it needs to be handled with consideration and care.

    Don't give up on meeting with Christians face to face. I can easily understand what's turned you off from it, but face to face fellowship is just so much more human than what we have online here. And engaging in being human is good for everyone.
    Originally Posted by stephanielynn76 View Post
    I love your sentiment here. I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, I have also learned (the hard way I might add) that there is a time and place for bearing one's soul. With maturity comes discernment and some situations and individuals just cannot handle that much real life. I once broke down in a women's bible study and confessed the abuse I'd suffered. It did not go over well. Rather than feeling validated... I left feeling humiliated. The shame I was carrying was now compounded by the embarrassment I felt for having been so completely vulnerable. No one knew what to say. No one acknowledged my pain. No one gave me hope. It was just awful. However 10 years later, I found my "safe place" within a group from our church called the "Wounded Hearts." It was a closed group specifically for those who had experienced sexual abuse. Our motto was… "When we tell, we get well." Those women and the things we shared with one another were the most real and healing conversations I've ever had. I could be loved, accepted, and validated IN MY MESSINESS. It was the only place I ever felt liberated enough to face my shame and self-contempt and get some victory over it. This is how I believe the body of Christ is supposed to operate. When we don't peel off our "veneers of perfection" then there is no vulnerability and therefore no ACCOUNTABILITY. I now have a very small group of mature Christian friends. We are real. We are messy. We are "in each other's business." We are iron sharpening iron… and that does not happen without authenticity. I just wish there were more people willing to get on that level. I suspect there aren't because some Christians just love their sin too much to confess it. They don't want to have to be held accountable for it. As for me, when it comes to friends I'd rather have (and be) an authentic mess than contend with a room full of concealed ones.
    *hug*

    That's a really harsh history. I spent most of my first 3-4 years as a Christian not opening up about a lot of the stuff I'd been through and the sin I was/am struggling with for fear of judgement from my peers. I am so grateful that when I finally did learn to be vulnerable and open up about this stuff, I was met with compassion rather than embarrassment. And I'm so glad for you, that you eventually found Wounded Hearts. If the culture of our church stops us from being authentic about our brokenness, then our church is, at best, not helping us in being restored, and at worst encumbering us. Likewise, if the culture of our church stops us from being safe to confess our sins, then that's a sickness in the church.

    The last year or two have been really important for me in opening up the freedom to confess, and the trend has been that when one person opens up, others realise that they're allowed to do the same. It's been a real blessing.
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    @ lasher

    You heard of this one, mate? Been getting rave reviews on the blogosphere




    and this one too


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    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10...contraception/

    Vatican’s bishops lighten up: What new report says about homosexuality, marriage and contraception

    ....

    Gay Marriage

    “Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community: are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a fraternal space in our communities?…The Church furthermore affirms that unions between people of the same sex cannot be considered on the same footing as matrimony between man and woman … Without denying the moral problems connected to homosexual unions it has to be noted that there are cases in which mutual aid to the point of sacrifice constitutes a precious support in the life of the partners.”

    While remaining clear that the church does not support same sex marriage and has no plans to recognize these unions, it’s a big deal for the church to acknowledge the merits of these partnerships, Prof. Gaillardetz said. “What it’s saying is ‘Look, if these two people have committed themselves to each other, surely we’ve got to be able to say there’s some really good things going on there.'” This response connects to the church’s concern about the decline of intact families, he added. “It’s acknowledging that there are a lot of people who’ve given up on marriage and these are people who actually want to commit themselves to another person for the rest of their lives.”

    Civil Unions

    “A new sensitivity in today’s pastoral consists in grasping the positive reality of civil weddings and, having pointed out our differences, of cohabitation. It is necessary that in the ecclesial proposal, while clearly presenting the ideal, we also indicate the constructive elements in those situations that do not yet or no longer correspond to that ideal….Furthermore in such unions it is possible to grasp authentic family values or at least the wish for them.”


    The bishops here are clear that the church still does not consider civil unions “the full reality of a Catholic sacramental marriage. But that doesn’t mean we can’t recognize a positive reality in it,” Prof. Gaillardetz said. The church has long denounced civil unions as “contrary to God’s plan,” he said, rather than acknowledge some good that can come from these partnerships.

    ...
    Experts, your opinions?
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    Does gay marriage contravene natural law theory?
    "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

    - Socrates



    “Every scientific man in order to preserve his reputation has to say he dislikes metaphysics. What he means is he dislikes having his metaphysics criticized.”

    -Alfred North Whitehead

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    In regards to laity not being allowed to read the bible (or weren't taught the language and no translation was allowed), how universal was this phenomenon before it started to change? Would it have been present in byzantine territories of the (now) middle east?
    Don't know what to put in my sig crew


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    Originally Posted by Athanasius90 View Post
    @ lasher

    You heard of this one, mate? Been getting rave reviews on the blogosphere






    and this one too



    got the second one on kindle a few days ago on a whim. Haven't heard of the first. Haven't gotten to reading it yet, but supposedly its being raved as the best defense of divine simplicity since like, ever.



    edit: lol holy crap dude the first one is 60 bucks, is this your revenge for the Editiones Scholasticae books I posted
    Last edited by lasher; 10-14-2014 at 04:24 AM.
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    Originally Posted by uwootm8 View Post
    In regards to laity not being allowed to read the bible (or weren't taught the language and no translation was allowed), how universal was this phenomenon before it started to change? Would it have been present in byzantine territories of the (now) middle east?
    The laity was largely illiterate. That is why the mass and the liturgy was saturated with scripture. It wasn't about forbidding them from reading scripture. It was that books cost a fortune, and the typical sheep farmer couldn't read anyway. Further, there were translations into the vernacular long before the reformation. And no, not just by Wycliffe.

    Syriac
    Completely: earlier versions 2nd century

    Peshta
    4th century

    Coptic Partly: First Century

    Completely: Second Century (to Akhmimic, Sahidic and Boharic Dialects)

    Gothic
    383AD

    Nubian
    6th century

    Chinese
    640AD

    Arabic
    8th century

    Anglo-saxon
    7th century

    Slavonic
    9th century

    German

    Partly 786AD
    Fully 1466 Mentelin Bible (there were several German translations before Martin Luther's translation 1535)
    Last edited by lasher; 10-14-2014 at 09:22 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Athanasius90 View Post
    Does gay marriage contravene natural law theory?

    yes
    'On many levels, mathematics itself operates as Whiteness. Who gets credit for doing and developing mathematics, who is capable in mathematics, and who is seen as part of the mathematical community is generally viewed as White' - Rochelle Gutierrez, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Illinois.

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    Originally Posted by TranceNRG View Post
    I have no intention of giving news agencies any credibility on reporting on the synod. They did this same crap at VII. I'll read the documents when they come out.
    'On many levels, mathematics itself operates as Whiteness. Who gets credit for doing and developing mathematics, who is capable in mathematics, and who is seen as part of the mathematical community is generally viewed as White' - Rochelle Gutierrez, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Illinois.

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    Clarification on Sola Scriptura

    I wanted to post this here, not for debate but for clarification, since there seems to be a lot of confusion over the sola Scriptura position. Attempts to defeat it here are often based on appeals to emotion, fear, or consequences, so I want to set down a solid definition.

    Because the Scriptures are the only example of God-Breathed revelation in the possession of the church, they form the only infallible rule of faith for the church. Sola Scriptura denies there is another infallible rule of faith for the church. There may be other rules, other creeds, confessions of faith, but they are not infallible & are subject to the correction of the highest authority - Scripture.

    All things in Scripture are not equally plain or clear, but those things necessary for salvation are clear so that anyone in due use of ordinary means can attain a sufficient understanding of them.

    The authority of the proclamation of the Church comes from her fidelity to the words of Christ - that is true apostolic succession. We do not bow in allegiance to anything that is not God-breathed & infallible.

    James White
    We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture to be the sole source of written divine revelation, which alone can bind the conscience. We deny any creed, council, or individual may bind a Christian's conscience, that the Holy Spirit speaks independently of or contrary to what is set forth in the Bible, or that personal spiritual experience can ever be a vehicle of revelation.

    The Cambridge Declaration
    What sola Scriptura is not:
    • Scripture isolated. We are not limited only to the words of Scripture. The Bible is not the complete storehouse of all knowledge. The Bible does not exhaust the truth of God.
    • A denial of tradition. We accept traditions that expound Scripture, but they are always subordinate to Scripture & corrected by it because they are not considered God-breathed & infallible.
    • A denial of the authority of church leadership so long as it coincides with Scripture. It is also not a belief in the independence of the Christian to exist apart from the Church.
    • A doctrine beginning at the Reformation. Support for Sola Scriptura is found in the works of Iranaeus, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, Basil, Augustine & Cyril.

    Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare to be wiser than we ought. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher.
    - De Bono Viduitatis

    For concerning the divine & holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility & artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.
    - De Unitate Ecclesiae

    Augustine
    James White v Mitch Pacwa on Sola Scriptura


    This is a very good & smooth debate to watch & it addresses the typical RCC apologetic misconceptions as well as the sola Scriptura concerns about the RCC position.

    Cliffs of Some Key Concerns Discussed:
    • The Scriptures do not point to any other rule of faith.
    • It must be proven that another rule of faith is God-breathed & infallible to stand on equal level with Scripture & that without it man is insufficient.
    • The RCC has not infallibly defined what Tradition is nor whether it is inspired the way Scripture is inspired.
    • It is encumbant on the RCC to support their assertion on normative tradition by tracing their beliefs from the apostolic period to today, but we have no assurance based on historical record that certain normative traditions today were passed down from the apostles.
    • Has the RCC infallibly defined a single word of Christ or the apostles that isn't found in Scripture? How many passages of Scripture have been infallibly defined by the RCC?
    • The question of the authority of establishing the Canon only begs the question as to what basis the RCC has to infallibly define these things. The claim to certainty does not provide a logical claim to certainty. As soon as the claim is made it begs the question, Why is Rome capable of determining the Canon? It simply moves the question from one place to another & is no more than saying the Canon is what it is because we say so.
    • An appeal to the misuse of Scripture is not an argument against sufficiency any more than an appeal to the misuse of magesterial doctrine proves its insufficiency.
    • What we are told by the RCC today was an 'apostolic tradition' is apparently contradictory to what the apostles preached in Scripture. We can see Scripture. We know it goes back to the apostles. We do not know that the alleged apostolic traditions that have no purview in the early church actually go back to the apostles. It is an assumption that we can't accept.

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    Thanks confuoco. I definitely needed some protty training.

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    Originally Posted by homicidal_misc View Post
    Thanks confuoco. I definitely needed some protty training.
    I've been noticing some rhetorical bed wetting lately...

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    Originally Posted by Athanasius90 View Post
    Does gay marriage contravene natural law theory?
    No.

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