The New Christian Thread 3

[lasher]

Only seen a little more than half so far. But James bringing up the Carmen Christi (Never knew about that before) was definitely one of the nails, that and Shabir sp.? accepting a part of Mark then turning around and saying another part of Mark is not correct, was the final nail against Shabir.

This was the seminal work on the Carmen Christi (Phil 2:5-11)

http://www.amazon.com/Christi-Societ...christi+martin





It's dated by many scholars to be pre-paulin. If it's true, then there was already an extremely high view of christology within a few years of Jesus's death.


Larry Hurtado also discusses it:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Earth-Did-...s+become+a+god




It really is an amazing passage. If it is an early hymn as argued by many NT scholars, it means within a decade christians believed:

1. Jesus Christ existed as a person before he came into the world.
2. Jesus Christ shares equality with God.
3. The living God became a man.
4. The incarnation of God the Son was for the purpose of his humiliation and our salvation.
5. Having completed his work, Christ was exalted by the father to the point that every knee will bow and every tongue confess his lordship over all things.

5 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,

6 who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,

7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.

And being found in human form,
8 he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death—
even death on a cross.

9 Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,

10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

[Myriad88]

I'll never understand how you do so much reading. I'm reading for 2 hours each day without fail and still havent read as much, and i dont even work full time.

[Harbinger]

I'll never understand how you do so much reading. I'm reading for 2 hours each day without fail and still havent read as much, and i dont even work full time.

Maybe the power of Christ compels him?

[lasher]

I'll never understand how you do so much reading. I'm reading for 2 hours each day without fail and still havent read as much, and i dont even work full time.

My job has a significant amount of downtime. There's huge crunch time during projects, and then lots of waiting around until someone bitches about something not working along with random data requests or report requests.


Hurtado's book I listed above is excellent to get a real glimpse at just how highly devotion to Jesus had already developed within only years of his crucifixion. Martin's book will be inaccessible without a basic working knowledge of greek. I've only read parts of it myself.

[sawoobley]

Most modern christians do in fact believe in theosis (deification) just not in the same sense mormons do. They believe it in the same sense as the church fathers did. Which is also not the same sense mormons have of it (which was what maximoJ was pointing out).

I think the articles I posted were pretty accurate. Even OrthodoxWiki says the doctrine of theosis has been neglected in the Western church and it suggests most Protestants do not believe or teach theosis. I realize if you search the writings of Catholicism and perhaps some Protestant writings the teaching exists in some form. However, I'm not sure what significance that is if it is not taught on a local level. It's one of the reasons people in the west get so freaked out IMO by Mormonisms teaching that we can become like God or attain the attributes of God. If the teachings of theosis were taught or understood there would be some acknowledgement that they believe something somewhat similar just in a different way. From what I understand most mainstream Christian churches focus on the greatness of God and to think man can approach that greatness is absurd to most. As you know 51% of Christians are Protestant in the U.S., 24% Catholic and only 0.6% Orthodox so to say the the doctrine of theosis has been watered down in the west seems true to me. I doubt you are going to find many in the west who believe we can become gods in the next life which is what the article was suggesting early Christians believed.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis#Theo...Christian_West

[lasher]

I think the articles I posted were pretty accurate. Even OrthodoxWiki says the doctrine of theosis has been neglected in the Western church and it suggests most Protestants do not believe or teach theosis. I realize if you search the writings of Catholicism and perhaps some Protestant writings the teaching exists in some form. However, I'm not sure what significance that is if it is not taught on a local level. It's one of the reasons people in the west get so freaked out IMO by Mormonisms teaching that we can become like God or attain the attributes of God. If the teachings of theosis were taught or understood there would be some acknowledgement that they believe something somewhat similar just in a different way. From what I understand most mainstream Christian churches focus on the greatness of God and to think man can approach that greatness is absurd to most. As you know 51% of Christians are Protestant in the U.S., 24% Catholic and only 0.6% Orthodox so to say the the doctrine of theosis has been watered down in the west seems true to me. I doubt you are going to find many in the west who believe we can become gods in the next life which is what the article was suggesting early Christians believed.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis#Theo...Christian_West

Theosis is still present in protestantism, its just termed differently as sanctification. It is especially found emphasized within methodism and wesleyanism. Theosis is also part of the catholic church catechism article 460. It is present in anglican theology as well. But in traditional christianity it is not taught that we become gods with a capital G as God the Father, God the Son, of the Holy Spirit are. It is to be transformed by grace to share in the divinity of the Holy Trinity and by doing so become more God like, gods with a small g.

[SpiritFighter]

Maybe the power of Christ compels him?

I dont think I can ever hear 'the power of Christ compels' again without thinking of this is the end...



Does it?

[MaximosJ]

Most modern christians do in fact believe in theosis (deification) just not in the same sense mormons do. They believe it in the same sense as the church fathers did. Which is also not the same sense mormons have of it (which was what maximoJ was pointing out).

This. (I'm trying to rep you but I seem to be constantly on spread with you.)

I think the articles I posted were pretty accurate. Even OrthodoxWiki says the doctrine of theosis has been neglected in the Western church and it suggests most Protestants do not believe or teach theosis.

A couple things here...

First, your link did not just say that "the doctrine of theosis has been neglected in the Western church" (which is a somewhat weaker claim, and one that is a bit more open to interpretation) but that "references to deification . . . were infrequent by the medieval era" and that "the concept of deification faded from Western Christianity." The third of these claims is certainly false, as I have already shown; the second also seems false, for reasons I have also given (quoting from Augustine, Pope Leo, Thomas Aquinas, and John of the Cross). It is surely right to say that, in some Western churches, particularly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the doctrine of theosis was/has been neglected, but that's about it. The doctrine has been continually taught in the largest Western church (the Catholic Church) and is also taught in some major Protestant churches, particularly in Anglican, Lutheran, and Methodist (as lasher mentioned) churches. There are, of course, different levels of emphasis in some places, but that does not mean that the doctrine has faded away. (See below for a bit more on this.)

Second, OrthodoxWiki is a good source for finding real sources, and (often, anyway) for getting a decent overview of an issue, but it is a wiki often edited by Orthodox laymen who may not be well-qualified to comment about other traditions. As I said in my earlier post, the claim that "theosis has been neglected in the Western church" is a popular claim, so I'm not surprised you found it there. In fact, it is fairly common in Orthodox polemics to find the claim that the "Western" Christians have somehow abandoned this doctrine. On investigation, though, that just doesn't seem right. It is a popular misconception that is, fortunately, being corrected in recent years (thanks to increasing dialogue between churches). For example, I already linked to some work on the doctrine of deification in Thomas Aquinas (the book-length treatment by A. N. Williams). There is also some reassessment of Aquinas by an Eastern Orthodox thinker in the recent book, Orthodox Readings of Aquinas (here: http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Readi.../dp/0199650659), which says, among other things:

The importance of the principle of deification in Aquinas, for instance, has long been established.

and:

The importance of the principle of deification in Thomas has recently been given prominence in such works as Luc-Thomas Somme's Thomas d'Aquin, la divinisation dans le Christ, Anna Williams' Ground of Union, and Antoine Levy's superb Le cree et l'incree.

The same is true for Lutherans and other Protestants. Here is a quote from Theosis in the Theology of Thomas Torrance:

Not only did the early church, the Fathers, and the scholastics adopt a doctrine of theosis, so too did the Protestant Reformers. . . . The central thesis of this school [the Finnish School of Luther interpretation] is that for the so-called 'later' Luther, salvation is conceived as union with Christ . . . a real participation in Christ. . . . A concept of theosis is also present in the theology of Calvin.

And, as already mentioned, you find the doctrine affirmed repeatedly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I realize if you search the writings of Catholicism and perhaps some Protestant writings the teaching exists in some form. However, I'm not sure what significance that is if it is not taught on a local level.

It is taught on a local level, at least in the Catholic Church, since it is taught in the Catechism, with which every person is expected (and instructed) to be familiar. (It is also certainly taught locally in all Eastern Catholic Churches in the West (and in the East too, of course).) The doctrine is even present in the liturgy that is prayed every Sunday in the western Catholic Church, since the prayer for the offering of the gifts (the bread and wine) says, "By the mingling of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ."

Anyway, even if it were (contrary to fact) not taught locally, the significance of all of this would still be that the teaching has not actually been lost, but is still affirmed in Western Christianity, and is there to be found for those who want to understand their faith.

It's one of the reasons people in the west get so freaked out IMO by Mormonisms teaching that we can become like God or attain the attributes of God.

I think that the reason has more to do with the fact that, the way the Mormon doctrine is presented, it appears to say that we become distinct gods in our own right, gods other than the one true God (even perhaps going on to create other worlds of our own), and that the Father Himself was once in our state and eventually advanced to his godhood. Both of these ideas appear to be foreign to the continual teaching of the Church, from the beginning (see my earlier discussion of Irenaeus, whom your source only quotes partially) to the present.

From what I understand most mainstream Christian churches focus on the greatness of God and to think man can approach that greatness is absurd to most.

Again, there is a difference in emphasis in various places, as one would expect, but that doesn't mean the doctrine has faded from Western Christianity. And yes, people might say that it is "absurd" that we can "approach that greatness," because the idea of "approaching that greatness" is ambiguous. We certainly cannot become in essence (rather than by participation through grace) what God is, for example, so we can't approach that greatness. We also cannot literally become beings deserving of worship, for example, so we can't approach that greatness either. But if you ask sincere western Christians whether they can partake of the divine nature, share the very life of God, be intimately united with the God in Christ through the Holy Spirit (so that we live in Him and He lives in us), even be transfigured by His grace to become a new creation that lives His very life, shares His glory, has His "mind," etc., so that we can be like He is, most of them will (or ought to) say "yes."

A lot of Christians in the US are "Christians" in name only, and you also have to take that into account. The average person in the pew these days (at least on Easter and Christmas!) doesn't know jack.

As you know 51% of Christians are Protestant in the U.S., 24% Catholic and only 0.6% Orthodox so to say the the doctrine of theosis has been watered down in the west seems true to me.

The US ≠ the West. The Latin (western) Catholic Church is the largest western Christian church, with over 1 billion members, and the doctrine is taught over and over again in its Catechism and Liturgy. And as lasher and I have already said, it is also taught in the Protestant churches. Whether what is taught there is "watered down" is exactly the issue of contention here.

I doubt you are going to find many in the west who believe we can become gods in the next life which is what the article was suggesting early Christians believed.

Again, this is probably mostly because (1) most people in "the West" who call themselves "Christian" don't know jack, and many probably aren't even Christian, and (2) the phrasing of "become gods" is ambiguous and risks suggesting the idea that we become distinct gods in our own right, which people would not endorse (incidentally, precisely this ambiguity is recently more prevalent because of the relatively new (19th century+) spread of Mormonism, which actually does teach exactly that). What the early Christians seem to have believed is that we "become God" in the sense that we are "taken into the Word" (to quote Irenaeus once again) by grace and have His life within us, partaking (by grace) of His divine nature -- not that we become distinct gods in our own right, gods other than the one God, etc. Another way of putting it is that we can be united to and transfigured in Him so intimately that we become (in some way, by His sharing through grace) what He is, to the extent that we can say it is not we who live but He who lives in us.

inb4 tl;dr

[iwillloseweight]

Here a story I heard of two days ago. Posted in misc but I believe most are non believers so it didn't phase anyone. This is a prime example of miracle.

"But right in the spot where Mason would have been sitting was the Holy Bible. It was my Bible that had been in the trunk," Josh Carney said.


http://www.wsmv.com/story/24834636/f...sh-in-car-seat


Cliffs

Guy was in road with his son for some reason
Sees vehicle coming at them and he held on tight.
Plows into back and the son sitting in the back seat was thrown thirty yards to safety.
Apparently his seatbelt that was strapped in failed due to metal cutting it loose.


I've seen wrecks before and witnessed people die. Their cars didn't loo anything like this and the odds of this happening in favor of the kid are unbelievable.

[Harbinger]

Here a story I heard of two days ago. Posted in misc but I believe most are non believers so it didn't phase anyone. This is a prime example of miracle.

"But right in the spot where Mason would have been sitting was the Holy Bible. It was my Bible that had been in the trunk," Josh Carney said.


[url]http://www.wsmv.com/story/24834636/fund-established-to-help-boy-tossed-from-crash-in-car-seat[/rl]


Cliffs

Guy was in road with his son for some reason
Sees vehicle coming at them and he held on tight.
Plows into back and the son sitting in the back seat was thrown thirty yards to safety.
Apparently his seatbelt that was strapped in failed due to metal cutting it loose.


I've seen wrecks before and witnessed people die. Their cars didn't loo anything like this and the odds of this happening in favor of the kid are unbelievable.

[IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/9lfi9f.jpg[/IG]

So why do you think god saves some children but allows others to die horribly?

[GreatOldOne]

So why do you think god saves some children but allows others to die horribly?

He's omniscient, so it must be that he wants to find out what that will be like...again.

[MuscleXtreme]

Here a story I heard of two days ago. Posted in misc but I believe most are non believers so it didn't phase anyone. This is a prime example of miracle.

"But right in the spot where Mason would have been sitting was the Holy Bible. It was my Bible that had been in the trunk," Josh Carney said.


http://www.wsmv.com/story/24834636/f...sh-in-car-seat


Cliffs

Guy was in road with his son for some reason
Sees vehicle coming at them and he held on tight.
Plows into back and the son sitting in the back seat was thrown thirty yards to safety.
Apparently his seatbelt that was strapped in failed due to metal cutting it loose.


I've seen wrecks before and witnessed people die. Their cars didn't loo anything like this and the odds of this happening in favor of the kid are unbelievable.

By the looks of it; if that kid hadn't been ejected he wouldn't be alive.

Hope the kid pulls through.

[iwillloseweight]

So why do you think god saves some children but allows others to die horribly?

When I was born my father was an alchoholic and both my mother and him were drug heads. I have two older brothers. My father was a wife beater. My mom was at a woman's shelter. My mom did not turn me or take care of me in any way. She let me lay their for hours on in. My head had a sunken place in it and I could not move my arms or legs. Just so happens this elderly woman had told her to treat me better because apparently I haven't had a bath in a while. From what I understand my mother gave me to her right than. The elderly woman taught me to walk and spent time my mom should have. She was real close to adopting me but her husband died not long after I came and that put a damper on the situation. Just so happens her daughter went in a store and bought coffee a lot. She took me down there one day and they said the owners fell in love with me. The owners were my new father and mother and I visited the elderly woman but I never knew why.

Looking back now I should not have lived the life I have but god let me. My brothers were unfortunate and lived in and out of homes. They are in worst shape than me.

I know I have a purpose in life and no Big Bang theory or evolution gave me the life I am so fortunate to have.

Respect non believers but there are so many circumstances in my life that should have not been but they were.

[Harbinger]

^^^ That's sad and all and I'm glad you made it but, it doesn't really answer my question.

[GreatOldOne]

When I was born my father was an alchoholic and both my mother and him were drug heads. I have two older brothers. My father was a wife beater. My mom was at a woman's shelter. My mom did not turn me or take care of me in any way. She let me lay their for hours on in. My head had a sunken place in it and I could not move my arms or legs. Just so happens this elderly woman had told her to treat me better because apparently I haven't had a bath in a while. From what I understand my mother gave me to her right than. The elderly woman taught me to walk and spent time my mom should have. She was real close to adopting me but her husband died not long after I came and that put a damper on the situation. Just so happens her daughter went in a store and bought coffee a lot. She took me down there one day and they said the owners fell in love with me. The owners were my new father and mother and I visited the elderly woman but I never knew why.

Looking back now I should not have lived the life I have but god let me. My brothers were unfortunate and lived in and out of homes. They are in worst shape than me.

I know I have a purpose in life and no Big Bang theory or evolution gave me the life I am so fortunate to have.

Respect non believers but there are so many circumstances in my life that should have not been but they were.

I'm sure God enjoyed every minute.

But, good job man. Making it.

I'm sorry about your father and mother. People don't deserve that.

Your turn to create something nice out of nothing, perhaps. Best wishes.

[iwillloseweight]

^^^ That's sad and all and I'm glad you made it but, it doesn't really answer my question.

Lol sorry man. I guess some answers can't be answered. Hopefully you'll find your answer.

[MuscleXtreme]

I'm sure God enjoyed every minute.

But, good job man. Making it.

I'm sorry about your father and mother. People don't deserve that.

Your turn to create something nice out of nothing, perhaps. Best wishes.

Wow a GOO post that is somewhat coherent. I'm shocked.


Iwill, don't mind GOO; he is a resident troll that comes into this thread, for some odd reason. You will typically see him posting nonsensical gibberish in an arrogant demeanor in hopes of fully characterizing his pathetic idol - G.W.F. Hegel. If he is not bloviating on his "evil god" theory, he will be seen posting about lobsters as if they unlock the key to the universe.

[GreatOldOne]

Wow a GOO post that is somewhat coherent. I'm shocked.


Iwill, don't mind GOO; he is a resident troll that comes into this thread, for some odd reason. You will typically see him posting nonsensical gibberish in an arrogant demeanor in hopes of fully characterizing his pathetic idol - G.W.F. Hegel. If he is not bloviating on his "evil god" theory, he will be seen posting about lobsters as if they unlock the key to the universe.

Did I say something wrong? Don't let me get in the way of you putting your foot in your mouth.

[MuscleXtreme]

Did I say something wrong? Don't let me get in the way of you putting your foot in your mouth.

GOO, I have offered to help you in other threads. You seem to have quite an anger issue lately, and I hate seeing you struggle with whatever issue that you have going on. We can help you, you just have to let us in.

I hope and I pray that you receive the help that you need before you end up hurting yourself.

[GreatOldOne]

GOO, I have offered to help you in other threads. You seem to have quite an anger issue lately, and I hate seeing you struggle with whatever issue that you have going on. We can help you, you just have to let us in.

I hope and I pray that you receive the help that you need before you end up hurting yourself.

Here's my problem:

My theory appears correct.

[MuscleXtreme]

Here's my problem:

My theory appears correct.

Ahhh we're back to nonsensical GOO now. You really need to let us know which GOO you are when you're posting. It's as if I'm communicating with a PowerSwede clone. Instead of being a lawyer, doctor, Israeli spy; you are either incoherent, semi-coherent, weird, angry, or jovial.

It makes it really hard to help you when we don't even kknow which GOO it is we are talking to. Is it angry GOO? Or will get incoherent GOO. It's like we're playing a game of roulette and instead of having the ball land on black or red, it lands on your personality at the moment.

[DizzySmalls]

Wow a GOO post that is somewhat coherent. I'm shocked.


Iwill, don't mind GOO; he is a resident troll that comes into this thread, for some odd reason. You will typically see him posting nonsensical gibberish in an arrogant demeanor in hopes of fully characterizing his pathetic idol - G.W.F. Hegel. If he is not bloviating on his "evil god" theory, he will be seen posting about lobsters as if they unlock the key to the universe.

Usually to try to help people out or throw a word of advice or encouragement, if you pay attention

[MuscleXtreme]

Usually to try to help people out or throw a word of advice or encouragement, if you pay attention

That's odd, because I see you contributing advice, having meaningful discussions.

GOO on the otherhand just bloviates on about his "evil god" theory or lobsters.

[iAndrew1994]

Anyone on here follow walter vieth?

[lasher]

Anyone on here follow walter vieth?

First time I've heard of him. Interesting testimony. Atheist PhD in zoology who becomes a christian creationist.

[iAndrew1994]

First time I've heard of him. Interesting testimony. Atheist PhD in zoology who becomes a christian creationist.

Yep, he used to be a catholic as a child/teen as well.

[GreatOldOne]

Ahhh we're back to nonsensical GOO now. You really need to let us know which GOO you are when you're posting. It's as if I'm communicating with a PowerSwede clone. Instead of being a lawyer, doctor, Israeli spy; you are either incoherent, semi-coherent, weird, angry, or jovial.

Well, I'm just a programmer but (a spy, really? lol)...anyway, don't you feel this is an accurate description of the human condition?

"incoherent, semi-coherent, weird, angry, or jovial"

It makes it really hard to help you when we don't even kknow which GOO it is we are talking to. Is it angry GOO? Or will get incoherent GOO. It's like we're playing a game of roulette and instead of having the ball land on black or red, it lands on your personality at the moment.

You're helping me laugh. Thanks. Have a nice weekend, bro.

GOO on the otherhand just bloviates on about his "evil god" theory or lobsters.

Do you see why I used lobsters for an example now? I've only mentioned it a few times. Now more people accuse me of lobsters than anything else. It's an indelible image.

When you close your eyes this evening...report back and let me know if a lobster wasn't in your mind's eye.

Bloviates is a great word, btw...I'm not sure I've seen that one before, so thank you. Makes me think about a talking cow.

[Bullroarer]

What's this about God and lobsters? Is GOO on dat dere Deleuze trip?



"God is a Lobster, or a double pincer, a double bind. Not only do strata come at least in pairs, but in a different way each stratum is double (it itself has several layers). Each stratum exhibits phenomena constitutive of double articulation. Articulate twice, B-A, BA. This is not at all to say that the strata speak or are language based. Double articulation is so extremely variable that we cannot begin with a general model, only a relatively simple case. The first articulation chooses or deducts, from unstable particle-flows, metastable molecular or quasi-molecular units{substances) upon which it imposes a statistical order of connections and successions (forms)."

You may say that sounds like a crackpot talking gibberish, but no less a one than David Bentley Hart has stated that we're living in The Age of Deleuze. So rock on with yer God-lobsters, GOO.

[DizzySmalls]

Bloviates is a great word, btw...I'm not sure I've seen that one before, so thank you. Makes me think about a talking cow.

Bloviate, loquacious bovine, it's all the same thing

[SpiritFighter]

So why do you think god saves some children but allows others to die horribly?

A couple questions for you; 1.) So miracles cant happen because other people die? And, 2) whats the point of a miracle?


*Not looking for a right or wrong answer, just looking for your thoughts...