Long femur squats!

[Horizon92]

Hi guys!

I know this has been a topic of discussion many times, but it seems I cant get a definitive answer from my searches, and although I dont expect to get one here either, Id like some suggestions.

I have had issues squatting since I began doing them in late 2012. I have not been lifting since may 2013, just returned. My squats are OK, hell by most standards they are probably pretty good - but Im at light weight atm and I still feel my form is failing me slightly. If I had been lifting heavier I am 100% it would be an issue, so here we go:

I am 6'4 with 20 inch femurs and have tried every squat variation under the sun. I have oly shoes (which I these days prefer to use). My thoughts on different variations:

High bar, narrow stance: I did my highest lift (265lbs) with this style before I "gave up" back in 2013. It worked OK but I had a rounded back just at the bottom of the lift. With oly shoes.

High bar, medium stance: This is what I am using right now. I have an issue of coming too far forward, I have issues keeping my weight at the heels

High bar, wide stance: Harder hitting depth, rounding of back, doesnt feel comfortable. With or without oly shoes

Low bar, every stance: I have had a history with shoulder injuries from wrestling, and I have issues with my mobility - I am in great pain when I squat low bar, and even when doing high bar I have a wide grip, and I grip without my thumb.

My squat cues these days are:

- Knees out both down and up
- Try to keep chest up
- Neutral head position
- Break at knees
- Elbows forward (to help with my upper body positioning)

I have started doing babylovers SS, and since he recommends doing front squats I really want to start doing them. I tried it out today but my body is tipping forward, and if I had weight on the bar Im pretty sure it would have slipped off.

As I said I just started out again, but basically my plan is to do foam rolling, glute stretches (mostly for deadlift setup, might help here too?)

Any suggestions on what squat position is best for me, and how I can work on having a straight torso? I have a friend with opposite proportions of me, and he nailed the high bar oly squat first time trying, Im so jealous

[hsilman]

I don't think you are THAT unusual in your anthropometry. Depending on how you are measuring, I'm 5'9" and my thigh is 17-18".

It's probably just a technique problem along with strength, and possible flexibility. I think the whole flexibility/mobility thing has been WAY overblown recently. I'm not saying stretching and "mobility work" is useless, far from it. But it probably isn't the thing inhibiting you from keeping your back flat or weight on your heels.

If you have a legit shoulder problem that prevents you from low barring without pain, then obviously those are out. Plenty of people have gotten strong with high bar squats.

My suggestion is to continue your stretching if it makes you feel better, and to stick with one squat style that works from here on out. Deload to a weight where you can get a perfect set of 5, and work up from there. get your setup and cues the same every time and be consistent. I'm sure you can get stronger. Also, don't forget that every rep doesn't have to be perfect. If you get on your toes one set, just try to cue yourself to stay on your heels the next. If your back rounds, cue yourself the next set to stay tight. Just keep working on it.

[baxtej44]

stop worrying about the length of your femurs. that is stupid. post a video of form instead

[Horizon92]

I don't think you are THAT unusual in your anthropometry. Depending on how you are measuring, I'm 5'9" and my thigh is 17-18".

It's probably just a technique problem along with strength, and possible flexibility. I think the whole flexibility/mobility thing has been WAY overblown recently. I'm not saying stretching and "mobility work" is useless, far from it. But it probably isn't the thing inhibiting you from keeping your back flat or weight on your heels.

If you have a legit shoulder problem that prevents you from low barring without pain, then obviously those are out. Plenty of people have gotten strong with high bar squats.

My suggestion is to continue your stretching if it makes you feel better, and to stick with one squat style that works from here on out. Deload to a weight where you can get a perfect set of 5, and work up from there. get your setup and cues the same every time and be consistent. I'm sure you can get stronger. Also, don't forget that every rep doesn't have to be perfect. If you get on your toes one set, just try to cue yourself to stay on your heels the next. If your back rounds, cue yourself the next set to stay tight. Just keep working on it.

Hi thanks for the reply. I don't think my femur is incredibly long, but they are longer than my torso, so I automatically lean forward for balance. Im definitely looking to stick to one form of squatting, and I have no issues doing high bar. Was just wondering if there are anyone with similar proportions who feel its possible to make a blanket statement like "yup you should narrow stance" or something along those lines.

Im actually not entirely sure on what I need to focus on to keep my back straight. Would you think that it is a mobility issue or a "cue" issue?

@baxtej44: Im not worrying about my femurs! What I was looking for was to hear from the experience with people of similar proportions, so I can home in on the right squat for people with long femurs, if that is even a thing.

I have some old videos where I do a lot of different stuff, Im not sure if those issues are prevalent now (since I am using light weights atm), but here they are:





^ There you have a lot of ugly squats that really shows my issues

Here are a couple of vids where I try different stuff




^lowbar

Here I try to change up stances with highbar and oly shoes




Somehow everything is a playlist so sorry about that

edit: Welp a deadlift video sneaked in. Damned playlists. Well I guess there should be enough squatting for you guys to make an assesment on what I need to work on ^^

[hsilman]

you are overemphasizing "sitting back". you get in the hole with the bar way behind your midfoot, and you instantly try and correct it when coming back up, shooting you forward.


On the reps you don't do that, they all look fine to me. I mean, not perfect, but you are new to this so I don't expect perfection. Something that sometimes helps me is to visualize the bar moving in a straight line over my midfoot.

[kaleida]

totally agree that long-femured people cannot simply "sit back" ... well they can with some stance adjustments, but without a stance adjustment, sitting back will lead to weight shifting forward onto the balls of the feet...

I have long femurs too and I drew some stick figures to illustrate the weight shift problem I ran into and the 3 options I found so far to fix it:

long femured squat angles

I don't think it's bad at all to put some thought into your individual leverage issues ... to find the solution, need to understand the problem first

Plus long-femured people are usually really good at deadlifts...shorter torso has the potential to be a really strong lever...it's definitely not a bad thing to have long femurs!!

[kaleida]

I watched your squat videos too. I see you're using forward knee tracking and feet/knees pointing out - that's good you already found something that helps. You might want to experiment with a wider stance too, those are the 3 ways I know of to get my long femurs out of the way (forward knee tracking, feet and knees pointing out, and/or wider stance) - they can be used one at a time or mixed. try some different combinations and see what you like...

I also see the forward weight shift and mini good morning on the way up (hips rising faster than your shoulders and then your back heaves the weight up). I have 2 thoughts about the mini good morning:

A) some long-femured people find that the mini good morning is their strongest option and they train it on purpose - strengthening the back with more good mornings so they can finish that mini good morning with more weight.

B) other long-femured people find that they are stronger when they avoid good morning, and they train to avoid it - by doing squat variations that require an upright torso: front squats, high bar squats - forcing the legs to do the work instead of delegating to the back

Dan Green (who is also a long-femured powerlifter) is a fan of option B and his squat is excellent. He writes about how front squats helped him:
http://jtsstrength.com/articles/2013...-front-squats/

I know of at least one powerlifting friend who is a fan of option A, and his squats are also excellent.

I guess my point is: know what your options are ... but just keep squatting, you will make progress either way!

[davisj3537]

I only watched your 3rd video. Your bar path seems fine on the way down, but your form absolutely crumbles on the way up. If you just kept a nice slight curve in your back you'd do fine. Your hips rise and your back doesn't, which throws you forward. Your back and hips needs to move in unison.

Kaleida I knew you'd get ITT. lol

[kaleida]

Kaleida I knew you'd get ITT. lol

gotta look out for my peeps hahaha

[turkey_server]

Imagine a vertical column stemming from the center of your feet to the ceiling. Cue yourself on feeling where the bar is within this column, and make sure it stays inside the column for the entire lift.

I'd rather see some heavy squats though. No heavy attempt is going to go up with that much forward movement out of the hole--either the heavy weight forces you not to do it, or the bar ends up on the safeties.

[IzzyT]

The only thing you can do to mitigate long femurs in the squat is to take a wider stance. When you take a wider stance, the femurs are held at a greater angle in the hole. As seen from the side, this reduces the distance between the knee and the hip which effectively shortens the length of the femur. The exact same thing happens in a sumo deadlift for instance. With a wider stance, you won't have to lean over as far to maintain balance. Try it and see.

Wide does not mean Westside wide. It means somewhere just outside shoulder width. You still need to be able to hit depth.

[Smolovicus]

There really isn't much you can do OP.

My hips sit as high (standing side by side) as my brother who is 6' 4.5'', and my femurs are as long as his -- and that's on top of him already sharing in my pa's side's barrel chested / long legged build. Sitting deep into a high bar / olympic squat looks ridiculous and lifting with a low bar position puts my torso practically between my legs in the hole (bit like Layne Norton and Furious Pete, actually).

Best thing to do IMO is simply build a very strong upper back (as it will want to buckle with any forward lean) and work hard on developing your quads. 9/10 of the times I see this happen, myself included, weak quads are always involved; which seems to make sense since the longer muscle bellies implied by longer femurs would have a dramatic effect on your overall leverage (on top of the moments already created by the bone length).

[kaleida]

Working on quad strength has definitely helped me with good morning avoidance in my low bar squat. I think training to do the mini good morning on purpose with more weight is also a valid option but I was naturally stronger when I avoided good morning, even when all my volume work had the mini good morning ...so good morning avoidance is the experiment I wanted to do first on myself

another other long-femured powerlifter whose journal I follow on a different website has epic quad strength but an even more epic back strength... for him doing the good morning on purpose is still his strongest option for competition squats, even though his quads are strong enough to do 400lb front squats with upright torso, he does 600lb good mornings for assistance work so the good morning option is stronger for him.

[kaleida]

The only thing you can do to mitigate long femurs in the squat is to take a wider stance. When you take a wider stance, the femurs are held at a greater angle in the hole. As seen from the side, this reduces the distance between the knee and the hip which effectively shortens the length of the femur. The exact same thing happens in a sumo deadlift for instance. With a wider stance, you won't have to lean over as far to maintain balance. Try it and see.

Wide does not mean Westside wide. It means somewhere just outside shoulder width. You still need to be able to hit depth.

I want to add to this: extra stance width with feet pointing out vs extra stance width with feet pointing mostly forward feel very different to me as far as strength and how much I can squat...I think it's good to try both.

I also notice a tradeoff between forward knee travel and stance width....the wider my stance is, the less forward knee travel I need...the more forward knee travel I use, the less stance width I need. I definitely need either forward knee travel or extra stance width or a little bit of both. Basically getting my femurs out of the way to the front or the side....any direction except for back, because sitting back as far as possible in a narrowish stance gives me center of gravity issues. good to experiment with different options and see which one has the most potential.

[hammerfelt]

FWIW my femurs are about the same length as yours. I take wide stance toes pointed out. I don't high or low bar squat. I put it in the sweet spot on my back, which is between the two. I find I squat more flat footed.

In this image I am standing as wide as the cage allow, toes pointed out, hitting depth, have the bar over the center of my foot and my knees not going past toes on the vertical.

Shoes are Vibram 5 Fingers Treksport. Blow Chuck's out of the water. There is no comparison.

[kaleida]

I like the pic hammerfelt...that's useful info I'm always curious what combinations work for other people.

About 1 month ago I stumbled on a stance / cue combination that felt "just right" to me so I wrote extra detail about what I was doing that day in my training log:
http://janiepowerlifting.blogspot.co...es-jan-28.html

I think the "perfect combination" will be different for everyone ... plus it might change over time depending on which types of movements get the most training ... but when you stumble on a combination that feels just right, I think it's really important to write it down in detail!! I think squats that feel "just right" for a long-femured person are a gold mine... if I don't write it down in detail I'll probably forget and not be able to reproduce it later.

I also like to track the effect of squats on my deadlift... in the past my deadlift has responded really well to the following types of squats:
- wide stance low bar with feet pointing out and no forward knee travel
- narrow stance front squat with feet pointing out and maximum forward knee travel
- medium stance high bar with feet pointing out and some forward knee travel

[kaleida]

Imagine a vertical column stemming from the center of your feet to the ceiling. Cue yourself on feeling where the bar is within this column, and make sure it stays inside the column for the entire lift.

+1 to this ... I love this cue too. during setup I do think about how wide my feet will be and how angled they will be, and what effect that will have on forward knee travel and depth ... but then when I'm actually squatting it works so much better for me if I just think: A) drop the bar vertically, B) push the floor straight down so the bar goes straight up ... letting my knee and hip position go where it wants to go, not trying to micromanage.

[ilovethe80s]

Another long femur person checking in. To echo what others have said, you need to experiment to see what works for you, esp where you have those other workarounds with the shoulder and all.

My preference is the deep high bar route. Video here:
http://youtu.be/qObZ2PmgxZU

I was surprised when I went to that style that I could squat more than I could in my low bar efforts. Just a lot more confidence in that position for me.

To figure out where you should be, it is helpful to hang out in the hole. Like a good, long pause, 5-7 seconds and feel what is going on. See if your body shifts position before you ascend and if it does, try to squat down to that position again. Try to head into the gym with a list of cues each time, video your sets and keep track of which combos work and which don't at which times.

For staying more upright, as others have said, the knees need to either go out or forward. I have better luck thinking about the position of the pelvis rather than where the legs will go. Find strength in a neutral position, draw everything toward the center line, picture the path of the bar, and balance. I like to imagine squatting inside a tight glass vial that I am barely narrow enough to fit through where if you add in any extra movement or exhale, you'll smash the glass.

[KeepOnShruggin]

I think you should place the bar lower on your back and allow your torso to lean forward a little more.

[kaleida]

Low bar, every stance: I have had a history with shoulder injuries from wrestling, and I have issues with my mobility - I am in great pain when I squat low bar, and even when doing high bar I have a wide grip, and I grip without my thumb.

Someone posted this high bar squat video in my journal as long-femur squat inspiration and it made me happy: Ian Wilson squatting 530 pounds / 240 kg. I see his long femurs, weak point the same as mine, and a tiny mini-good-morning in the weak point ... but he got past it with a really decent weight. It gives me hope, to see multiple different ways to be successful.

[IzzyT]

I want to add to this: extra stance width with feet pointing out vs extra stance width with feet pointing mostly forward feel very different to me as far as strength and how much I can squat...I think it's good to try both.

I also notice a tradeoff between forward knee travel and stance width....the wider my stance is, the less forward knee travel I need...the more forward knee travel I use, the less stance width I need. I definitely need either forward knee travel or extra stance width or a little bit of both. Basically getting my femurs out of the way to the front or the side....any direction except for back, because sitting back as far as possible in a narrowish stance gives me center of gravity issues. good to experiment with different options and see which one has the most potential.

This is definitely universally the case. The wider you stand, the less forward knee travel you'll need because you're reducing the distance between the hips and the knees. This requires you to lean over less to keep the bar over the middle of your foot and stay balanced. If you stand wider and use more forward knee travel, you'll be far more upright than usual. In order to maintain your normal back angle, when you stand wider, the knees simple do not travel as far forwards.




In case anyone is interested, I wrote a very long article addressing squat technique optimization. Stance width in particular is heavily addressed. I don't feel like rehashing arguments that I've already spent thousands of words developing. If you'd to read my position, you can do so here.

[Horizon92]

Wow a lot of replies in here! I will read through it all and reply later this evening. Thanks a lot Hoping to bring stuff into practice tomorrow.

I'm thinking I will video some sets and upload them so you guys can see and maybe say something about which squat looks best technically?

[kaleida]

Wow a lot of replies in here! I will read through it all and reply later this evening. Thanks a lot Hoping to bring stuff into practice tomorrow.

I'm thinking I will video some sets and upload them so you guys can see and maybe say something about which squat looks best technically?

I love looking at long femur squat videos!! the best camera angle for me to evaluate my own squats is a side view with the camera far enough away that I can see the tip of the bar for the whole movement.

Actually the tip of the bar is the #1 thing I look at first ... if I have a forward center of gravity shift it's easier to see it in the tip of the bar, instead of trying to see it in my body angles. If I see the tip of the bar going forward then I know I need to tinker with something: wider stance, feet/knees pointing farther out, or more forward knee travel

If you can find a combination where the bar path looks reasonably vertical, without pain / impingements, I think that would be a good candidate for a long-term experiment but I would still be interested to see all the combinations just because I'm a nerrrrrd on this topic

[StreetCleaner91]

20'' femur isn't long for 6'3'' and i don't know how it's possible for your torso to be shorter than 20'' at 6'3'' unless you have 22'' tibias or you head looks like an easter island statue.

anyways for highbar, the longer your femur is in proportion to torso and tibia, the more ankle mobility you need to stay upright.

[Horizon92]

20'' femur isn't long for 6'3'' and i don't know how it's possible for your torso to be shorter than 20'' at 6'3'' unless you have 22'' tibias or you head looks like an easter island statue.

anyways for highbar, the longer your femur is in proportion to torso and tibia, the more ankle mobility you need to stay upright.

I am 6'4 (192cm which translates to 6'3.7), and I just did measurements again. My femur is 53cm (20.8inches), and my torso is 48cm (18.89 inches). My tibias are somewhat shorter than my femur.

@kaleida:

The new gym Im at might pose some problems for camera angle, but I will try my best. I will be trying out some different stances, concentrating on keeping my back straight and torso as upright as I can. Do you think its important that I do the testing with challenging weight, or is easy weights/just bar enough?

[kaleida]

no worries...any camera angle will be interesting
Don't rule something out just because your torso angle looks low in the hole....if you get down and up with no center of gravity shift that's the important thing....torso angle varies a lot depending on anatomy/stance/bar position... I actually feel strongest in a stance where my torso angle is very low at the bottom. I feel like my back is stronger than my legs at the moment and i can use my back more that way. I am training squats with a more upright torso to make it more awkward for me on purpose and force my legs to get stronger some people feel stronger with more upright torso....everyone is different.

I have a simpler long-femur test that I think is better than inches...I'll try to post it later.

[kaleida]

ok here's my long femur test.

If you do a low bar squat like this...



...and then you feel this happening...



...then your femurs are long enough to require a stance adjustment.

that is all ...no measuring tape needed

The first position is the strongest position for a lot of people ... low bar, maximizing "sitting back" and minimizing forward knee travel ... but it's anatomically impossible for a long-femured person to balance like that because the bar would be behind the feet. So the body shifts center of gravity forward to keep the bar over feet. During the squat it feels like weight goes onto the balls of the feet, unavoidably.

This is loosely related to torso angle but it's different...it's not like straightening the torso would help...you would be back in the anatomically impossible position and fall backwards...

To prevent the forward weight shift you need to set up in a way that brings the bar farther forward compared to your feet in the hole... this can be done by:
- widening the stance
- pointing feet/knees out more
- allowing more forward knee travel
- moving the bar higher on your back
- or some combination of the above

[kaleida]

Do you think its important that I do the testing with challenging weight, or is easy weights/just bar enough?

My balance is totally different with just the bar (pretty sure my hips alone weigh more than the bar) so when I test different stances I like to do it with a little more weight ... 95 or 115 is where my balance starts to feel more similar to heavier weight ... doesn't necessarily need to be a 5RM or 3RM ... just enough to feel like the bar is my center of gravity.
And top-heavy guys might not have this problem so if you want to test with just the bar I think that is fine too

[IzzyT]

I think Kaleida's method is correct. I'd just add that moving the bar up is going to be sub-optimal for the vast, vast majority of powerlifters. The higher bar position actually necessitates a certain degree of verticality. If you don't stay at least somewhat upright, the bar literally rolls up on you and you dump it over your head. Watch some of Pete Rubish's old squat videos to see how this plays out in powerlifting. With a lower bar position, you can still effectively lean over very far without losing the bar. The lower bar position de-emphasizes forward knee travel (thus decreases range of motion) and emphasizes hip strength (posterior chain has more strength potential than the anterior chain). Time and time again, the low bar squat has been proven to be superior to the high bar squat when it comes to the purposes of moving the most weight possible.

If you need to stay more upright, or avoid falling forward, working with your stance width and footwear should come first. Experimenting with knee travel is a secondary option but not preferable. Further forward knee travel, again, emphasizes more quad than posterior chain and increases your range of motion. In my opinion, neither of these things are particularly desirable for powerlifting.

Obviously, there are very strong raw lifters who use a lot of knee travel, but, generally speaking, the top guys all conform to a relative model: medium to medium-wide stance, low bar position, fairly upright back angle in the hole (~60 degrees), and moderate knee travel (up to their toes at most, usually less).

Based on your individual segment lengths, you need to find a combination of shoes and stance width that permit a lower bar position without excessive knee travel while still staying relatively upright (to avoid the low back becoming the limiting factor). For powerlifting purposes, the longer femured lifter is going to need to stand wider than most other people to mitigate their segment lengths.

Yes, you can move the bar higher or use more forward knee travel, but usually these solutions are sub-optimal for reasons I just spent several paragraphs elucidating.

[hammerfelt]

In case anyone is interested, I wrote a very long article addressing squat technique optimization. Stance width in particular is heavily addressed. I don't feel like rehashing arguments that I've already spent thousands of words developing. If you'd to read my position, you can do so here.

Excellent article! on spread.

I do tend to have the bar roll up a little sometimes when I squat. But if I lower the bar it feels like it is going to rip my arms off. Higher an I can feel the weight shooting down my spine.