DEBUNK THIS: N-Large II and Weight Gainers bad rap. They're really not all that bad

**madcowz** · 08-22-2003, 06:48 PM

DISCLAIMER: PLEASE READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH BEFORE POSTING ARGUMENTS

I honestly don't see why weight gainers like N-Large are bashed so much on this board. No one can deny the tremendous gains people have gotten from it, and certainly I haven't seen anyone get fat off of it. The only way you'll get fat really is if you use it while being inactive. Additionally, N-Large has a ridiculous amino profile, and is loaded with all the goodies + all your BCAAs AND 9 grams of L-Glutamine! It has more BCAAs per serving than most BCAA formulas which we all know are very costly.

BCAAs in N-Large per serving:

L-Isoleucine ..............3.28g
L-Leucine ..................5.40g
L-Valine......................3.04g

RippedUp mentioned in one of the above listed threads:

"Even if you don't end up as a 100% type-2 diabetic, your insulin sensitivity starts to decrease, which in the long run affects nutrient partitioning negatively - i.e. you'll be building a higher ratio of fat to lbm.

This is one of the many reasons gainers should be avoided. (others including quality of raw materials"

Now, for those of us (including myself) who take dextrose and/or malto already postworkout, I don't see the problem. It's highly debatable whether or not insulin spiking during that short window period that your body needs it is even dangerous.

Are the raw materials of great quality? Absolutely not, although it has the same quality whey as you guys use in your non-weight gainer pure whey powders (N-Large II uses cross-flow, microfiltered, cold-processed, ion-exchanged whey), so if quality was an issue to you, you would stick to the quality proteins derived from foods, not cheap processed whey. The whey we use is almost on the same level as the stuff farmers feed their livestock... it really isn't all that much better

Many have posted great recipes with good stuff like oats and natural peanut butter, but they all contain whey as well! How about making the same recipes, and just substituting the whey for N-Large II? The only difference would be more carbs, sugars, and amino acids. If you ask me, that sounds like a big plus for a postworkout shake!

Do I recommend taking it any other time than postworkout? No

Will you probably get fat if you take it before bed? Yes (but then again, I don't recommend eating/drinking anything before bed except maybe water. If you want to get fat and get sh*tty sleep, than go ahead, drink those protein or weight gainer shakes before bed)

Is it cheap? Not really. This is a common misperception, as most would think 10 pounds of weight gainer for about $35 is cheap. In actuality, if you go per serving, N-Large II costs about 3 times more than Optimum's 100% whey. Then again, per serving, your getting more than double the amount of protein (52 grams)

Hey, I'm not saying everyone should go out and start using weight gainers, or N-Large in particular, but I'm just saying it's a great product if you want to mass up. If you have no problem putting on weight, than forget about it, just eat your meat and potatoes... otherwise, N-Large is not a bad choice

I will however, admit that the sugar content is a definitely a bit high. I don't know if malto is allowed to be classified as a sugar and whether or not the 28 grams per serving includes the malto, or is just comprised of fructose solely. I'd honestly be surprised if it's 28 grams of fructose + malto, b/c fructose is very sweet and 28 grams is a heck of a lot for a product that doesn't make for a very sweet tasting shake. If it is 28 grams of fructose + additional malto, my suspicion would be that they did that to inflate the carb number that they could use to advertise.

**madcowz** · 08-22-2003, 06:49 PM

After doing a little search, I found a better option to N-Large, but be ready to empty your wallet a little further. It�s called Pro Blend Solid Gains by HDT. It contains a whopping 60 grams of protein, and 100 grams of carbs but with only 6 grams of sugar! Plus you got about the same amount of aminos that N-Large has (BCAAs too) as well as 7 grams of L-glutamine and 3 grams of Omega-3 per serving! The only thing I�m a little skeptical of is their mix of proteins, which include fast, slow and medium digesting proteins. For postworkout though, we are looking for just the fast digesting proteins (whey in particular), but nonetheless, this looks like a pretty solid product.

Well in conclusion, I�d just like to say that all weight gainers are not as bad as they are made out to be. You can get incredible gains from them, and are not particularly dangerous to health if you use in moderation. My advice would be to use the gainer only postworkout, while having regular whey shakes at other times of the day (other than bedtime). To reiterate, consuming large amounts of sugars is BAD for you. However, keep in mind, most products we typically consume are jam-packed with sugars. Most sodas fructose content would make N-Large II�s seem very pale in comparison (another thing I wouldn't touch and would suggest no one else does as well). That�s why I feel it�s not AS bad as people claim it is.

Fructose, Sucralose, Aspartame � all the worst culprits of health problems down the line (I know I�m forgetting a few; care free to add any to the list). So if you are going to choose a gainer with large sugar content, don�t take it often, and certainly don�t take it before bed unless you don�t mind being called fatty.

**NO MERCY** · 08-22-2003, 06:58 PM

thanks madcowz. i do not think you will find many people who will agree with you. Most people will still recommend making your own. Good post non the less

**Fella** · 08-22-2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by madcowz
After doing a little search, I found a better option to N-Large, but be ready to empty your wallet a little further. It�s called Pro Blend Solid Gains by HDT. It contains a whopping 60 grams of protein, and 100 grams of carbs but with only 6 grams of sugar!

Guess where almost all of the other 94 grams of carbs come from? No, not from oatmeal or brown rice or a good carb source, but from maltodextrin, which actually has a higher GI rating than dextrose.

The N-Large II isn't a terrible product if used post-workout, but use it any other time of the day and it is not the best option.

**madcowz** · 08-22-2003, 07:11 PM

"i do not think you will find many people who will agree with you. Most people will still recommend making your own."

The funny part is these home-made recipes all use whey powder anyway.... so much for being ALL natural. Why not substitute the whey powder for a weight gainer for an even more potent formula? If you don't need the extra calories than forget about it, but if you do than why not?

"Guess where almost all of the other 94 grams of carbs come from? No, not from oatmeal or brown rice or a good carb source, but from maltodextrin"

Solid gains contains NO malto. Here are the ingredients:

Glucose polymers, Pro Blend protein blend (instantized whey protein concentrate, micro ultra filtered whey protein concentrate, egg albumin, calcium caseinate, micro ultra filtered whey protein isolate, ion exchanged whey protein isolate, hydrolyzed whey protein isolate, l-glutamine, l-leucine, l-isoleucine, l-valine) cocoa, flax seed, whole milk powder, natural and artificial flavors, fructose, sodium chloride, acesulfame potassium."

**pogue** · 08-22-2003, 07:30 PM

High GI carbs are meant to be used around pre or post workout ONLY. The rest of the time, low GI carbs are preferred. Check the best of the supplements forum sticky, or do a search. This is basic nutritional information about low gi and high gi carbs and when to use them.

Originally posted by madcowz
After doing a little search, I found a better option to N-Large, but be ready to empty your wallet a little further. It�s called Pro Blend Solid Gains by HDT. It contains a whopping 60 grams of protein, and 100 grams of carbs but with only 6 grams of sugar!

**madcowz** · 08-22-2003, 07:42 PM

Yea, I know that, but what does that have to do with this thread or me? The one's bashing weight gainers, dextrose, and malto don't believe in high GI carbs postworkout, hence their recommendations of slow digesting low GI carbs such as oats. I for one DO believe that high GI carbs are essential postworkout. Ya, so that would make Solid Gains a less than optimal postworkout shake by itself, but I already drink enough gatorade on top of my postworkout shake to supply the necessary amount of dextrose anyway.

Originally posted by pogue
High GI carbs are meant to be used around pre or post workout ONLY. The rest of the time, low GI carbs are preferred. Check the best of the supplements forum sticky, or do a search. This is basic nutritional information about low gi and high gi carbs and when to use them.

**madcowz** · 08-22-2003, 07:50 PM

Wait a sec... are you now contradicting yourself? You posted the Anti N-Large/anti Maltodextrin post. Malto is high gi, oats is low gi... you never DID post any high gi alternatives to malto and dextrose you know...

**madcowz** · 08-22-2003, 08:17 PM

I don't want to come off as attacking you, but I just want to clear up your stance. You state that high gi carbs are for postworkout. Why is this necessary? Because of hightened cortisol levels, depleted glucose in the muscles, and to take advantage of the insulin sensitivity in that short window period. High GI carbs "supplies MUSCLE glycogen and it does this quicker than any other carb source and gives the highest response for insulin secreation from the pancreas." Spiking insulin is important for effectively replenishing those amino and glucose starved muscles.... nothing does it quicker and more efficiently than high GI carbs such as dextrose and malto.

And yet, in the Anti N-Large/anti malto post you stated that malto is BAD BECAUSE it causes an insulin spike and increases sensitivity (first line of the post)

So you're either FOR or AGAINST high GI carbs postworkout, and if you're for, than you're for insulin spiking postworkout... you can't have it one way and not the other

**RippedUp** · 08-23-2003, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by madcowz
Solid gains contains NO malto. Here are the ingredients:

Glucose polymers,

And what, in your opinion, could glucose polymers be?

You've got it right.. Malto!

**pogue** · 08-23-2003, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by madcowz
I don't want to come off as attacking you, but I just want to clear up your stance. You state that high gi carbs are for postworkout. Why is this necessary? Because of hightened cortisol levels, depleted glucose in the muscles, and to take advantage of the insulin sensitivity in that short window period. High GI carbs "supplies MUSCLE glycogen and it does this quicker than any other carb source and gives the highest response for insulin secreation from the pancreas." Spiking insulin is important for effectively replenishing those amino and glucose starved muscles.... nothing does it quicker and more efficiently than high GI carbs such as dextrose and malto.

And yet, in the Anti N-Large/anti malto post you stated that malto is BAD BECAUSE it causes an insulin spike and increases sensitivity (first line of the post)

So you're either FOR or AGAINST high GI carbs postworkout, and if you're for, than you're for insulin spiking postworkout... you can't have it one way and not the other

You must understand what is occuring during the pre and post workout time frame to see why high gi carbs are important during this time and not others.

Pre/During/Post Workout Nutrtion by Zeppelin

**madcowz** · 08-23-2003, 07:54 AM

RippedUp, I stand corrected!

Pogue: I read the article which was informative, but what I stated above pretty much recaped muchof what zep talked about in terms of reasoning for high GI carbs. Quite honestly I don't see why you would direct me to a source that suggests malto to spike insulin which is something you've spoken against, unless of course you changed your stance and effectively have been agreeing with me this entire time

**pogue** · 08-23-2003, 07:59 AM

Spiking insulin is good pre or post workout. But when you take a weight gainer with high GI carbs throughout the day, you have these spiked insulin levels all day, which leads to fat storage. When you only use it pre/post workout then it creates an anabolic state of pushing nutrients directly to the muscles - this is why bodybuilders inject insulin during this timeframe.

Either way, you don't necessarily have to use malto/dextrose pre and post workout - you could alternately use pasta or other forms of high gi carbs that aren't either of those.

**madcowz** · 08-23-2003, 08:09 AM

well malto/dextrose seems to be the easiest, most convenient way... can't really think of any others. Who wants to run home from the gym to cook pasta, rice or potatoes wasting precious time as their muscles continue to starve?

**Lonny** · 08-23-2003, 09:33 AM

Madcowz, i don't think you fully understand what your talking about.

The problem most have with weight gainers is that for the most part they are not bought by the general public to be taken post workout. People buy them to help get more calories at different times during the day. Heres what N-large advises people to do

Suggested Use: Use as a dietary supplement to achieve desired muscular weight gain. Use one serving between meals and at bedtime.

As for dextrose and malto, A lot of people on this forum still agree they are ok to use pre/during and post workout. It is when they can't get a solid meal in that make their own which includes low GI carbs. It is also cheaper to make your own.

**madcowz** · 08-23-2003, 09:44 AM

I think you guys are either not reading my posts entirely and there's huge misunderstandings, or there's some kind of 1000+ post member complex that involves large egos.

Sorry for the little rant, but it's just a bit frustrating. The point of this thread was to show that if used properly, weight gainers can be quite beneficial. Previous threads have been dedicated to show that they are evil and should be avoided like the plaque... and no, not everyone believes that insulin spiking (even solely post workout) is necessary, and some are very outspoken about the potential dangers of the usage of dextrose/malto. Geez, I swear.... under 100 posts and no one will even give your post the time of day (or everything is assumed to be wrong)

**pogue** · 08-23-2003, 09:58 AM

It's really simple dude, if you want to use a weight gainer - knock yourself out.

Weight gainers use cheap ass protein, and load it with even cheaper sugar carbs to try and make people "gain weight" which will be mostly fat. They are total trash.

You do not want to have your insulin spiked around the clock. This is why people become fat and diabetic.

It's like saying "Snickers are okay - because they are high in calories". No.

Drinking a weight gainer is the equivalent of eating high protein candy throughout the day.

Give me ONE good reason why you want to eat high GI carbs throughout the day

**Lonny** · 08-23-2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by madcowz
I think you guys are either not reading my posts entirely and there's huge misunderstandings, or there's some kind of 1000+ post member complex that involves large egos.

Sorry for the little rant, but it's just a bit frustrating. The point of this thread was to show that if used properly, weight gainers can be quite beneficial. Previous threads have been dedicated to show that they are evil and should be avoided like the plaque... and no, not everyone believes that insulin spiking (even solely post workout) is necessary, and some are very outspoken about the potential dangers of the usage of dextrose/malto. Geez, I swear.... under 100 posts and no one will even give your post the time of day (or everything is assumed to be wrong)

Up until this point im pretty sure noone had any idea as to what your posts where trying to prove. Now that you've expressed it a bit more clearly, everyone will know what your talking about.

As beneficial as you consider weight gainers, everyone elses points are basically that there are much better options out there. If it is taking pre/post workout gainers that your defending then a much better route is to buy a whey powder and buy dextrose and malto cheaper. N-large has crap quality whey and fructose. By making your own, you get a better whey, dextrose to replace the fructose, you control the ratio of protein to carbs, and you get all of this cheaper.

From a gaining weight standpoint, if you are adding a gainer to help get in more meals, having 80 grams of high GI carbs a few times a day will lead to fat gain if you do not have a lightning fast metabolism. ON the other hand, making your own which can be as simple as mixing raw oats with whey will provide sustained energy, fibre, and prevent a tremendous insulin spike.

Gainers suck because so many better options exist. There is nothing a gainer can do that something else cannot do better.

**madcowz** · 08-23-2003, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by pogue
You do not want to have your insulin spiked around the clock. This is why people become fat and diabetic.

Give me ONE good reason why you want to eat high GI carbs throughout the day

Originally posted by Lonny
From a gaining weight standpoint, if you are adding a gainer to help get in more meals, having 80 grams of high GI carbs a few times a day will lead to fat gain

There should be no argument, that is, if you read the post all the way through. I never recommended taking weight gainers 'around the clock.' I'll cut to the chase with a direct quote from my original post (if you haven't read it):

"Do I recommend taking it any other time than postworkout? No"

That's what I mean by 'if used properly'

I never recommended using it any other time, and I COMPLETELY agree that it's near worthless and WILL get you fat if you use it ANYMORE than just postworkout.

N-Large does have the unnecessary fructose, but it does have malto as well which IS beneficial for insulin spiking, especially used in conjunction with dextrose. You need between 20-40 grams of malto (with about the same dextrose) to effectively do this, and you certainly won't find that amount in anything but a gainer (even non-gainer wheys that do have malto, have very little due to the low-carb count).

Ya, you can get a killer shake using natural foods + regular whey, but if you're in need of the extra calories, subtituting n-large II (again, ONLY in your postworkout shake) is not a bad option.

I must be mistaken if the quality whey is 'crap' compared to other non-weightgainer wheys. It uses Cross-flow, microfiltered, cold-processed, ion-exchanged whey, which is what most brands use in their whey formulas. Perhaps 100% hydrolyzed is better (AST VP2), but then we're talking about a lot more money.

**pogue** · 08-23-2003, 11:01 AM

Nlarge2 uses whey concentrate, which they claim is cross filtered, etc.

Anyway, its okay around the workout window, but there are still better options - anyway, I'm glad we have come to the same conclusion.

**madcowz** · 08-23-2003, 11:15 AM

Pogue: Yes, I am glad we came to the same conclusion and agree with each other and the essential issues.

For the postworkout insulin spiking naysayers, I say and personally believe that this is the period where you need it, and can get away without becoming insulin resistant in the long run.

You are utilizing the carb/sugars to metabolise the much needed glucose, whereas, at any other time of the day, it will just get stored as fat, and you WILL become insulin resistant.

robertthoburn posted an excellent thread on what exactly causes type II diabetes:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hreadid=157713)

Originally posted by robertthoburn
Carbohydrate (sugars and starches --that includes maltodextrin) does not cause diabetes in and of itself.

When we say 'diabetes' here, we're talking about type II diabetes, which is a disease of insulin resistance. Type I diabetes occurs when the insulin-producing cells of the pancreas are basically destroyed and the patient becomes insulin-dependent, often in early adolescence (10-13 years of age).

At the risk of oversimplifying, type II diabetes occurs when you get too fat. If you eat too many calories for too long, your body fat will get high enough that it actually starts to interfere with the function of insulin and the metabolism of glucose ('blood sugar').

Like the protein in your muscle, fat is continually being built up (synthesized) and broken down (catabolized). We call this process 'turnover'.

Most of your body fat is stored in fat cells, also known as adipocytes. Adipocytes store fat in the form of triacylglycerols, which consist of 3 fatty acids attached to 1 glycerol molecule.

All day long, your adipocytes break down triacylglycerols and build new ones. In this process, some fatty acids are released. They can be carried by the blood to tissues like your liver and muscles that can 'burn' them for energy or store them. In addition, some of the fatty acids are taken back up by your adipocytes and stored again.

The more body fat you have, the greater the turnover of triacylglycerol. More and bigger adipocytes means more triacylglycerol molecules to break down and re-synthesize all day long. This means more fatty acids are released into the bloodstream all day long. This can be a problem.

Though many of the fatty acids released from the adipocytes of fat people are taken back up and stored again, many are also carried to the liver via the bloodstream.

A key function of fatty acicds in the liver is to provide the energy needed to make glucose from glycerol (released when adipocytes break down stored fat), amino acids (provided by the protein in your diet and in your tissues) and lactate (made by your muscles and other tissues). This process of making glucose from 'scratch', as it were, is called 'gluconeogenesis'.

Because people with lots of body fat have lots of fatty acids being dumped into their bloodstream each day, this results in lots of fatty acids going into the liver, which stimulates lots of gluconeogenesis. Thus, blood glucose levels increase. The fatter you get, the higher they tend to rise. This is particularly true as you gain so-called visceral body fat, some of which is broken down rapidly and dumps directly into the liver.

50,000 to 100,000 years ago, this was a great set up. You were short on food a lot of the time, so your body had to be able to preserve the supply of its favorite fuel --glucose. When you are short on food and physically active (as we were back then), your body fat is broken down at a faster pace. This allows fatty acids and glycerol to be released into the bloodstream. The fatty acids can be burned for energy by your liver, your muscles, and some other tissues. In the liver, this supports gluconeogenesis. The glycerol can be converted into glucose by the liver. All of this helps to preserve your whole-body glucose supply --your 'glucose economy'. Great!

Now fast-forward 50,000 to 100,000 years to the present. Most people spend the bulk of their day physically inactive (e.g., working behind a desk). Plus, they are never short on food. They eat too many calories. Consequently, they gain body fat. Eventually, their body fat gets high enough that the liver is basically getting 'rained on' with fatty acids all the time!

Your body thinks you are starving, but nothing could be further from the truth!

The continual flow of fatty acids into the liver stimulates gluconeogenesis and causes blood glucose levels to rise higher and higher. Again, the body thinks that you ARE starving, because these metabolic conditions normally took place only when you were short on food. Unfortunately, the fatty acid 'down pour' is caused by the shear abundance of body fat, which reflects a state not of nutritional deprivation, but one of nutritional OVERABUNDANCE.

But the body doesn't realize this. It thinks that your glucose economy is being threatened, so it makes your muscles and other tissues less sensitive to insulin. This way, they won't use as much glucose (they require insulin to transport glucose). This spares the glucose for other, less insulin-sensitive (or insulin-independent) tissues that can't do without glucose (e.g., your brain).

To repeat, you are not 'glucose deprived' at all. So, all of these adaptations just make your blood glucose levels go higher and higher as insulin sensitivity gets worse and worse.

The solution? Cut calories and lose body fat. Exercise.

As I hope you can see, carbohydrate per se does not cause diabetes, whether we are talking about maltodextrin, Rice Krispy squares, or oatmeal.

Diabetes is not a 'disease' caused by an excess of one macronutrient in particular. It is caused by an excess of calories --and consequently, body fat. Ironically, the body misidentifies the metabolic environment created by the over-fed/obese state as one of nutritional deprivation. It actually thinks that you are starving!

Hope this provides some useful insights.

Appreciatively,
Rob

**GoldynChyld** · 08-23-2003, 12:57 PM

Very well thought out and informing thread madcowz..I now know more about N-Large 2 and whey than I did yesterday. Thanks

**iamchris** · 08-23-2003, 01:44 PM

If a potential consumer is considering N-Large to take any other time than post-workout (and I realize that's not you, <i>mad</i>), and doesn't realize the carbs. are malto. and the implications of that, the 23-gram sugar listing on the label should be enough to scare that person away.

1. The majority of all weight gainers' "carbs." are high-GI malto., and simply too high in actual sugars.
2. Insulin spiking is <b>only</b> intelligent post- and perhaps mildly pre-workout.
1+2=3. Weight gainers therefore are only debatably useful post-workout.

They aren't a good option for post-workout, even so. Most of the literature suggests that your immediate caloric intake post-workout is far less than what gainers contain, and should be spaced out into a few meals within the "anabolic window" following a workout. Post-workout, taking one weight gainer that contains two to three times the amount of high-GI spikers needed is reckless overkill and thus not an option for someone serious about their training.

I'd also like to say that there's really no debate over whether spiking insulin post-workout is necessary. It's a biological fact that in order to utilize the post-workout food most effectively, insulin's capability to move your food's nutritional content must be optimized by being raised. Perhaps insulin doesn't need to be as high as 30 or 40 grams of dextrose or malto. will make it post-workout, but it must at least be significantly raised to make the best of post-workout food.

The debate is whether it's worth spiking your insulin every workout day to best utilize your post-workout foods, in the long run. Thinking once or twice a day raising your insulin levels to that of the person eating a typical modern-day diet will give you diabetes or negatively impact your body in the long run seems a bit overcautious to me. Now I know "just because they're doing it and are [for the majority of the population] okay" isn't sound reasoning, but come on, give your body a little more credit. Once a day, three to five times a week, is negligible.

**derekmac** · 08-23-2003, 01:47 PM

There are more affordable post-workout options out there without the excess sugar.

**jweave23** · 08-23-2003, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Lonny
Gainers suck because so many better options exist. There is nothing a gainer can do that something else cannot do better.

Enough said.

Thread: DEBUNK THIS: N-Large II and Weight Gainers bad rap. They're really not all that bad

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