Official MMDELAD Thread: Because Micros (and nutrition) Do Matter

[mormonpickett]

I do a "eat whatever kind of food you like" type diet for my ENTIRE contest prep to some degree. And I do the same with my clients. I ate jello, granola bars, cereal, and PB+J on white bread all the way up to stage time. (I won 1st place in 2 different classes).

My little brother started his prep eating ice cream and corn dogs every single day and was making GREAT progress(I have all his weekly progress numbers/data recorded).

When it gets closer(a month out or so) I do start replacing foods with whole foods that have more fiber to keep me full longer. But not all of it. I had sugar free jello everyday because it was 40 cals a box. That saved me.

That all being said, I'm not for or against either side. My brother these last few weeks told me he wanted to go all whole foods and the "classic" bodybuilding way for his prep, so now he's on chicken, brown rice, eggs, ect. But like I said earlier He was eating pretty much normal foods most of the time, and I expect him to win the teen class and place in top 3 of the adult middle weight.

I do agree that this method is not the most healthy. I rarely had veggies during my prep, and neither does my brother. I'm positive I was and He is now nutrient deficient in something. We do use multi vitamins to try and help with the nutrient deficiencies but to be 100% honest, I'm not sold on multi vitamins. I'm in the exercise and wellness program at BYU and have heard both sides of the multi vitamin argument from different teachers... I just don't think we know enough yet.

[MikeWines]

I do a if it fits type diet for my ENTIRE contest prep to some degree. And I do the same with my clients. I ate jello, granola bars, cereal, and PB+J on white bread all the way up to stage time. (I won 1st place in 2 different classes).

My little brother started his prep eating ice cream and corn dogs every single day and was making GREAT progress(I have all his weekly progress numbers/data recorded).

When it gets closer(a month out or so) I do start replacing foods with whole foods that have more fiber to keep me full longer. But not all of it. I had sugar free jello everyday because it was 40 cals a box. That saved me.

That all being said, I'm not for or against either side. My brother these last few weeks told me he wanted to go all whole foods and the "classic" bodybuilding way for his prep, so now he's on chicken, brown rice, eggs, ect. But like I said earlier He was eating pretty much normal foods most of the time, and I expect him to win the teen class and place in top 3 of the adult middle weight.

I do agree that this method is not the most healthy. I rarely had veggies during my prep, and neither does my brother. I'm positive I was and He is now nutrient deficient in something. We do use multi vitamins to try and help with the nutrient deficiencies but to be 100% honest, I'm not sold on multi vitamins. I'm in the exercise and wellness program at BYU and have heard both sides of the multi vitamin argument from different teachers... I just don't think we know enough yet.

....

If you disagree with my sentiments, no one is forcing you to open this thread.
Free will is great and should be exercised.

This thread will be used for asking real questions and getting real insights from others, knowing there probably is no real right or true answer.

We can post studies and discuss them.

I invite anyone who agrees with these concepts to please subscribe and participate as much as possible.

I will begin everything by posting a study and some thoughts in post #2.

D.

Edit:
I am making a rule that we are NOT ALLOWED TO USE THE Most used ACRONYM (hint:it begins with an I and ends with an M) in this thread. Those who do should be reminded and are subject to negging/reporting if they do not edit their posts.

[mormonpickett]

....

did you even read my post? I agreed that it's not healthy and neither did I take a side in the argument...they both have their ups and downs. Pretty sure the OP said he doesn't have anything against the "eat whatever you want" method as well, just said it's not healthy.

Unless you were calling me out for using the acronym. Which I didn't use the entire thing. and I edited it

[MikeWines]

did you even read my post? I agreed that it's not healthy and neither did I take a side in the argument...they both have their ups and downs. Pretty sure the OP said he doesn't have anything against the "eat whatever you want" method as well, just said it's not healthy.

Unless you were calling me out for using the acronym. Which I didn't use the entire thing. and I edited it

Yes sir, read the whole thing. Wasn't calling you out, just trying to help you see that the point of this thread is not to debate IIFYM. It's to post studies and discuss advanced elements of nutrition since macros and food are much more than just numbers you plug into a website and micronutrients mean much more than just 100% of an RDA.

[mormonpickett]

Yes sir, read the whole thing. Wasn't calling you out, just trying to help you see that the point of this thread is not to debate IIFYM. It's to post studies and discuss advanced elements of nutrition since macros and food are much more than just numbers you plug into a website and micronutrients mean much more than just 100% of an RDA.

I was just posting personal study/evidence that it can work(and does for me and my clients). I have all their weekly diets, circumferences of bodyparts, and body fat tests in a journal here at home.

On page 1 someone asked how many people make it to the stage by following this type of diet, and I was replying to that post as well. My brother and I have both competed multiple times following this type of diet.

[MikeWines]

I was just posting personal study/evidence that it can work(and does for me and my clients). I have all their weekly diets, circumferences of bodyparts, and body fat tests in a journal here at home.

On page 1 someone asked how many people make it to the stage by following this type of diet, and I was replying to that post as well. My brother and I have both competed multiple times following this type of diet.

Ah I see where you were going now, replying to that post would have helped to overcome any confusion.

However, the one key piece of the puzzle that's missing is blood work. Do you know how you diet affects HDL/LDL, atherosclerotic plaque formation, or bacteria within the digestive tract? It's the longterm effects which you won't know until it's too late.

[mormonpickett]

Ah I see where you were going now, replying to that post would have helped to overcome any confusion.

However, the one key piece of the puzzle that's missing is blood work. Do you know how you diet affects HDL/LDL, atherosclerotic plaque formation, or bacteria within the digestive tract? It's the longterm effects which you won't know until it's too late.

No idea. :/

But I did go to the hospital for 3 days after my show because of crazy complications involving carbing up too hard with no water, salt loading, ect.

I have almost always assumed that getting into competition shape is unhealthy and bad for you. My first ever coach told that to me(although He believed in a lot of bro science).

[MichielN]

Been following the thread for the past couple pages, and the discussions are fantastic, so thanks guys.

On this omega-3 requirements discussion, I didn't know that DHA was so important > EPA. So I realize now that my fish oil caps don't say how much of each is in them (just total). MichielN, you say you should get 300 mg DHA, and that EPA is not essential, but it has benefits. How much EPA/day would you recommend then? Also what brands of fish oil supps would you recommend? I will be ordering some new ones soon.

Most fish oil related benefits come from DHA (reduced triglycerides, reduced bloodpressure, increased HDL, increased particle size, decreased heart rate and anti-arrhythmic effects, ...). The health benefits of EPA are pretty much entirely related to its interferences with ArA and consequentely the surpressed inflammatory response.

I think 250-300 mg DHA per day is sufficient, although there is absolutely no harm in higher doses obviously, I like to take one DHA capsule of 500 mg every day. And I also get relatively good amounts from my diet (eggs, chicken).

As for EPA you have two options, two ways to go: overall health, and bodybuilding.
EPA interferes with ArA metabolism, and the ArA cascade is very important for muscle recovery and growth (see here for a recent review: http://www.nature.com/nrrheum/journa...um.2014.2.html). Simply put, its metabolites accelerate muscle protein turnover and muscle recovery/growth. I think this is the reason why X-Factor (ArA supplement) is so popular in the supplement section. When bulking, increasing your training frequency in combination with a higher ArA/EPA ratio will lead to faster gains. The ArA cascade is exactly why NSAIDs are bad for muscle growth, they inhibit COX-II which is the enzym that oxidises ArA into some of its important metabolites. I think I have even read that taking NSAIDs around workout causes ArA to be released from membranes without being oxidised, thus without it producing its metabolites, that this causes muscle atrophy.

I'm pretty sure that there is no conclusive evidence on the slowed muscle recovery due to EPA in humans, but it has already been shown in rats: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19954953

Note that ArA increases protein turnover rates too, should you go without training for an extended period of time, then EPA would be of use. It would slow everything down, preserving more muscle. I don't have sources at hand but I believe I've seen several studies showing that fish oil was effective at preserving muscle mass in cancer patients for example. Perhaps EPA has its use when cutting because of this (althought I don't know if the effects would be the same when one keeps working out and eating adequate protein).

As for overall health, EPA surpresses the development of several inflammatory diseases. Atherosclerosis is an inflammatory process, I believe this is largely why fish oil is related to cardiovascular health (although DHA is also beneficial obviously due to possible reduced blood pressure for example). Note that these anti-inflammatory properties are due to its interference with ArA. Neither ArA nor EPA causes inflammation, they only regulate the inflammatory response. I think this means that the healthier you are (thus most likely free of (chronic) inflammation), the less use for EPA you have. Older, and/or unhealthier people have more use for it.
A weaker inflammatory response also damps pain (e.g. joint pain), if you experience this you can consider a higher EPA intake.

So basically your options are:
1. low EPA (<100mg, preferably <50g) intake for weight lifting related purposes
2. normal EPA intake (<500mg intake) for combined purposes
3. higher EPA intake (>500mg) for health purposes

Obviously these amounts are very arbitrary, but I think they're good indications (in my mind, lol).

In all cases, I think the advised 2-3g EPA/DHA combined is ridiculously high, after all ArA is still n-6 EFA and shouldn't be interfered with too much.

[saw7988]

Absolutely awesome post, thanks so much. I would GUESS right now I have a very high EPA intake, since my generic fish oil supplement label just says "360 mg combined EPA + DHA" and I take 8 of those to get that commonly recommended 2-3 total grams you mentioned. I'd guess they have something along the lines of 240/120 EPA/DHA.

I'm now very curious about this ArA business, since that seems like the major deciding factor here. I have a hard time believing it's going to make any noticeable difference in muscle gains, though. I believe that the link is there in an absolute sense, but how much does this play a role, and could other chains possibly make up for it? If I'm going to choose between "theoretically" improving my muscle gains vs my health, I feel like health is probably the way to go...

Also, are there a small list of foods that are abundant in ArA, or is this something that's going to be widely consumed in most diets, and EPA intake is the major parameter to play with?

[MichielN]

The best evidence for the weight lifting related benefits of ArA are experiences in the supplement section of X-Factor users I think. But perhaps the amounts you can get from your diet are too small to really make a difference, I'll admit that may very well be possible (although I still think it can make a difference, however big it may be).

There are several studies showing anabolic effects of fish oil, but there are with ArA too. The one study that I am aware of that compares the net effect is the rat study I posted, which clearly favours ArA (3 days recovery time vs. 13 days).

Perhaps this is all just theoretical nonsense in the end, same with the meal timing thing I was talking about earlier. Yet I think experimenting with these things to see if they make a difference for you is always a good approach.

The best (and only, really) dietary sources of ArA are egg yolks, and meat. The grass/pasture-fed ones will contain more n-3s, you probably shouldn't take these if you want the highest n-6:n-3 ratio.

[digistp]

Yet I think experimenting with these things to see if they make a difference for you is always a good approach.

I would agree. Before, I never really monitored n-6 : n-3. Now that I try to keep it balanced, I'm not seeing any real difference in gains or recovery.

[MichielN]

Obviously the difference could be small, same with meal timing, not detectable if you simply go by feel and results in the gym. But you never have a control group (obviously lol), and usually no extensive measuring. Difference could be there, small as it may be, it could build up to make a bigger difference over time. That's why I personally don't like these (''I didn't really notice anything'') statements.

I think we can safely say that the mechanisms itself are legit due to the popularity of, and the experiences with X-Factor. Whether the effects are as appreciable with balancing n3/6 without X-Factor is perhaps questionable, but I think that X-Factor has effectively shown that this balance might very well be something to take into consideration when micro managing your diet.

That's all for now hehe, g'night folks

[digistp]

Obviously the difference could be small, same with meal timing, not detectable if you simply go by feel and results in the gym. But you never have a control group (obviously lol), and usually no extensive measuring. Difference could be there, small as it may be, it could build up to make a bigger difference over time. That's why I personally don't like these (''I didn't really notice anything'') statements.

I think we can safely say that the mechanisms itself are legit due to the popularity of, and the experiences with X-Factor. Whether the effects are as appreciable with balancing n3/6 without X-Factor is perhaps questionable, but I think that X-Factor has effectively shown that this balance might very well be something to take into consideration when micro managing your diet.

That's all for now hehe, g'night folks

True, and everyone has their own goals. My highest priority is overall health, lifting is second; which is why I keep my ratios balanced and stay on IF. I would say for something like contests or sponsorship or whatever, diet should be tweaked accordingly. All the little stuff, while the individual short-term effects may not be noticeable, may add up to actually make a difference in size/strength short-term.

Anyways, my point to those reading is to modulate your diet and its timing according to your priorities.

[MikeWines]

No idea. :/

But I did go to the hospital for 3 days after my show because of crazy complications involving carbing up too hard with no water, salt loading, ect.

I have almost always assumed that getting into competition shape is unhealthy and bad for you. My first ever coach told that to me(although He believed in a lot of bro science).

Well if you went to the hospital, I'd say he was probably right then. haha

[determined4000]

Just came across this:
http://www.nutri-facts.org/eng/essen...commendations/

in, 2002!
they said the adequate amount of Omega 3 (not epa/dha but only recommending needed ALA) for adults was 1.5g/day and the Omega 6 need is 17g.

ugh

[solidsnake88]

so what's the general consensus on meal timing? i've read a lot of people say it doesn't matter, but whenever i see a person who's in contest prep they always say they eat 5-6 meals a day, 30g protein each meal. never heard them say they only eat 3 large meals or something.

[determined4000]

so what's the general consensus on meal timing? i've read a lot of people say it doesn't matter, but whenever i see a person who's in contest prep they always say they eat 5-6 meals a day, 30g protein each meal. never heard them say they only eat 3 large meals or something.

People say it doest matter to take an easy way out IMO.
What is meant, or orignally meant was that getting adequate macros for the day, regardless of timing, was the most important thing. Which is true.
However, that doesn't timing is completely irrelevant. IMO, you should be getting at least 3 spaced out meals in and adequate nutrients surrounding your workouts.
I would not say that you need 6 meals a day or that you can only take in 30g of protein to be absorbed at once/ you need x amount of protein feedings of Y amount.

I tend to stress the importance of complete proteins (dairy, whole eggs, whey, meat/seafood, casein)and not just total protein intake.

[Gxp23]

so what's the general consensus on meal timing? i've read a lot of people say it doesn't matter, but whenever i see a person who's in contest prep they always say they eat 5-6 meals a day, 30g protein each meal. never heard them say they only eat 3 large meals or something.

In general, for body composition, its nothing special, for performance, it can play a part (having a carb heavy meal before hitting gym etc)

In terms of competing, I have no idea, but I am sure there will be some reasoning to it.

I also am not sure if this thread is really the place to be asking but heyo.

[riaden]

http://running.competitor.com/2011/0...the-time_23379

[cumminslifter]

People say it doest matter to take an easy way out IMO.
What is meant, or orignally meant was that getting adequate macros for the day, regardless of timing, was the most important thing. Which is true.
However, that doesn't timing is completely irrelevant. IMO, you should be getting at least 3 spaced out meals in and adequate nutrients surrounding your workouts.
I would not say that you need 6 meals a day or that you can only take in 30g of protein to be absorbed at once/ you need x amount of protein feedings of Y amount.

I tend to stress the importance of complete proteins (dairy, whole eggs, whey, meat/seafood, casein)and not just total protein intake.

this^ it went from "meeting macros by the end of the day being top priority and meal timing coming after that" to "it doesnt matter when you eat" i agree you should get 3 meals per day with at least enough protein in each meal to stimulate MPS

[Crucifist]

I tend to stress the importance of complete proteins (dairy, whole eggs, whey, meat/seafood, casein)and not just total protein intake.

I don't get too meticulous about tracking the "complete" versus "trace" protein, but I do agree. I aim for most of my protein to come from a variety of sources as listed above. Usually in the order of Meat -> Dairy (Eggs count here in my book). I don't go for protein supplements much because nine times out of ten artificially sweetened products don't appeal to my taste buds. Anyway, if the trace proteins in my oats or what have you contribute to my goal to a small degree, that's okay, but they are by no means the cornerstone.

[MikeWines]

I don't get too meticulous about tracking the "complete" versus "trace" protein, but I do agree. I aim for most of my protein to come from a variety of sources as listed above. Usually in the order of Meat -> Dairy (Eggs count here in my book). I don't go for protein supplements much because nine times out of ten artificially sweetened products don't appeal to my taste buds. Anyway, if the trace proteins in my oats or what have you contribute to my goal to a small degree, that's okay, but they are by no means the cornerstone.

I still count them but I don't use them as the main source of my protein obviously. But with the amount of oats and potatoes I eat daily, they easily contribute 40 grams somedays.

[cls91]

I still count them but I don't use them as the main source of my protein obviously. But with the amount of oats and potatoes I eat daily, they easily contribute 40 grams somedays.

Similar. I get >1g/lbs but almost half comes from veggies (including potatoes), nut butters, and oats, while the other half comes from eggs, dairy, meat, and fish.

There's usually a Quest bar somewhere in there as well lol

[MichielN]

Do you guys eat the same thing everyday pretty much or do you really just eat what you're in the mood for, whatever's available, etc?

[WMLifting]

Do you guys eat the same thing everyday pretty much or do you really just eat what you're in the mood for, whatever's available, etc?

I have meals that are the same but vary other things to fill the gaps when I need them and run out of things. I honestly like to keep it consistent, though.

[cumminslifter]

Do you guys eat the same thing everyday pretty much or do you really just eat what you're in the mood for, whatever's available, etc?

i eat like the same core foods and throw random food in to meet my macros. if i go out to eat or have left overs i will eat that, sometimes i get bored and make something different. been eating ALOT of subway and girlscout cookies lately. like alot

[cumminslifter]

what you guys think about these dosages? pretty high
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...93.html#Dosage

[cls91]

80-90% of my food are the same staple foods, but I vary it up each day
Pic in this post: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1217922231

Some more than others (not as much from the fruit/grain sections).

I rarely eat out, so the other 10-20% comes from random others

[MichielN]

I pretty much eat the exact same thing everyday, only dinner with the fam varies. I calibrated my diet so that I'm not deficient in micros, and add some extra vitamins/minerals here and there if I want higher amounts (high doses vit C, extra magnesium, zinc, vit D, vit K2, copper to balance zinc).

I find this very easy and convenient, no need to think about what the fuk I should eat every day. Plus it's pretty much all single ingredient foods. I enjoy knowing that I'm consuming very unprocessed foods, no artificial ingredients etc..

But ofc I mix it up if I feel like it, I'm no slave to my diet

[LaViidaLocaa]

what you guys think about these dosages? pretty high
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...93.html#Dosage

For treatment purposes, dosages are usually higher than for normal, healthy people.
I use the RX Omega-3 from Natural Factors (liquid form, not capsules) which serves EPA 1,500 mg / DHA 750 mg per teaspoon. Seems to me it's (one of) the highest dosed fish oil(s) and tastes good, plus it's not too expensive.