lol@ free will and people who think they have free will

[StudlySeth]

Wrong OP. There I randomness in the position of electrons. The Big Bang couldn't be reproduced. Determinism...Nope

[ars92]

yeah now I feel that I already decided something long before I've had to make a decision.

that's still a decision.

[Metalhead44]

Determinism right?

I've always felt like determinism is probably right, seeing as if the big bang was exactly reproduced, everything would turn out the same just as if an explosion was exactly reproduced. Pretty depressing when you think about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Also, if you think about it, only two things govern who you are as a person - Your genetics, and every single experience in your life. From day one, you have absolutely no control over either.

Yeah because chance events do not occur


Not even talking about the butterfly effect,if the big bang was reproduced perfectly things would be way different.Life can't be reduced to linear measurements or even sequential values.Evolution is largely driven by chance,the chance that two species occupy the same area,at the same time and have the same niche determines the extended genetic linage of one species and the removal of the other species(Gause's principle).

[Shiboopi]

the point he is making is that is already decided before you are consciously aware you decided it.

That kind of thinking is a lot like another highly debatable topic. Let's call it religion.

[ars92]

That kind of thinking is a lot like another highly debatable topic. Let's call it religion.

No...let's call it modern neuroscience.

[White-Belt]

If you don't believe there is such a thing as free will, I'm sorry but you are actually a fukking idiot (Sam Harris very much included).

[socrates07]

OP you talking about benjamin libets experiment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

As of 2008, the upcoming outcome of a decision could be found in study of the brain activity in the prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 7 seconds before the subject was aware of their decision.[6]

Apparently, decisions are made for us and we just think we made the decision.. trippy sh*t

[Metalhead44]

Sorry brah, but there is free will. You're theory only works if the laws of physics are absolute, but it doesn't work that way. At a quantum level, everything works by probabilities - nothing is "set in stone". Michio Kaku explains it well:

e]

Dats it mane,everyone rep this red.

[StudlySeth]

If you don't believe there is such a thing as free will, I'm sorry but you are actually a fukking idiot (Sam Harris very much included).

Explain brah

[DemiBrah]

Grats on your understanding of the nervous system OP. Free will comes from your ability to make decisions, followed by the action carried out by your nervous system. Your post had nothing to do with free will, it just talked about how it is carried out.

[devill1am]

Wrong OP. There I randomness in the position of electrons. The Big Bang couldn't be reproduced. Determinism...Nope

I assume you're referring to quantum fluctuations, wave function duality, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. None of this negates the OP's point with reference to the colloquial sense of free will. Even if we admit to the probabilistic nature of events at the quantum level it doesn't negate the fact that our actions and thoughts are determined at the macroscopic level. i.e. you don't have free will, you have the illusion of free will.

[BallerOfPeace]

If i flip a coin, it is not randomly determined if it lands on heads or tails. It is determined by the amount of force I flip it with, the angle, the surface it lands on, etc. If you had a formula it would actually be possible to figure out which side it lands on. Sure it has a certain level of randomness, but there is no such thing as true random. Everything is determined by something.

[nin-com-poop]

that's just your opinion

[ars92]

Grats on your understanding of the nervous system OP. Free will comes from your ability to make decisions, followed by the action carried out by your nervous system. Your post had nothing to do with free will, it just talked about how it is carried out.

What do you think is making the decisions?

[Matsew]

but who was chaos theory?

[WhitePeril]

What do you think is making the decisions?

Some outside force maybe?

[ars92]

Some outside force maybe?

Can't rule it out. Way too many things we don't understand, and the more we look the weirder it gets.

[DemiBrah]

What do you think is making the decisions?

Your brain and conscience. Your brain calculated the reasoning for your decision, while your conscience calculates your response based on your emotions and general character.


Edit: unless you're a sociopath, in which case you have no conscience which is why they show such little empathy and emption

[Metalhead44]

OP you talking about benjamin libets experiment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

As of 2008, the upcoming outcome of a decision could be found in study of the brain activity in the prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 7 seconds before the subject was aware of their decision.[6]

Apparently, decisions are made for us and we just think we made the decision.. trippy sh*t

..

Yeah because non refined motor skills require the same amount of processing as decisions involving reason,emotion and other cognitive processes as well as activates the exact same regions of the brain(when MRIs have conclusively shown otherwise).Doesn't prove anything except that people can anticipate when they're going to carry out a rudimentary motor action.

[ars92]

Your brain and conscience. Your brain calculated the reasoning for your decision, while your conscience calculates your response based on your emotions and general character.

think deeper than that. What is causing those specific neurons to fire in which you interpret that as "your decision?"

[devill1am]

Can't rule it out. Way too many things we don't understand, and the more we look the weirder it gets.

We also can't rule out invisible pink unicorns controlling your brain as you make this post. Let's stick with the science here.

[ars92]

We also can't rule out invisible pink unicorns controlling your brain as you make this post. Let's stick with the science here.

Grow up.

[musicnerdanimal]

We also can't rule out invisible pink unicorns controlling your brain as you make this post. Let's stick with the science here.

This thread isn't about science it's about metaphysics. There's no fundamental particle that we can point to consciousness. It heavily implies god.

[LincolnLifter]

I know nobody will probably buy or read this, but if you REALLY want to look into this subject, read this book. It was published last year and is right now considered the cutting edge of contemporary philosophical theory on the question of free will. There has been an academic conference devoted to this book and the ground it's broken on the free will and determinism debate. The author presents an argument for the existence of free will and justifies what is known as the "compatibilist" theory (the view that determinism and free will are not mutually exclusive, thus even if determinism exists, we can and do still have free will) with arguments using modal logic and counterfactuals. Thus far, no one has been able to rebut the arguments given in this book and it's probably the most important book about free will in the last century. The book is called "Causes, Laws, and Free Will: Why Determinism Doesn't Matter" by Kadri Vihveli, a Philosophy professor at USC (IIRC).

Link: http://www.amazon.com/Causes-Laws-Fr.../dp/0199795185

I can tell you with pretty good confidence that this debate, while it has reached dialectical stalemate (it will never be settled), is effectively over as far as serious academic discourse goes-- all because of this book.

[BallerOfPeace]

This thread isn't about science it's about metaphysics. There's no fundamental particle that we can point to consciousness. It heavily implies god.

Bible says God is all knowing, meaning he knows everything about the future, when you will die, etc. this would prove OPs point. If God knows the future, then the future is predetermined and we have no free will.

[DemiBrah]

think deeper than that. What is causing those specific neurons to fire in which you interpret that as "your decision?"

The chemical composition of your brain that was determined when you were born and is effected by mental disease, malnuritionment, etc. You and OP are being over-analytical. You're brain composition is predetermined which can give one the idea that their decisions are predetermined, but in reality it just gives you something along the lines of a probability calculator for your decisions. Outside factors have a huge influence on decision making and your "destiny" and you can act "against your character" anytime you want, it's just not likely.

[Aesian]

Actually I partially agree what OP is saying, but not really. I believe what Stephen Hawkings proposes of multiple dimensions. One of it states that everything is in predisposition, but there are different outcomes.

For example, someone kicked a ball and it's flying at our face. Luckily we dodge that ball. Well in another dimension at the exact same time, another me is living a life where I did get hit by that ball and therefore totally different consequences. There may be another dimension of different outcomes etc.

I don't believe in "free-will" in the sense that everything we do is under our control. What I do believe is that although we may not have complete control over our own actions (aka. free will), there are always different possibilities of an event occurring differently.

[Metalhead44]

think deeper than that. What is causing those specific neurons to fire in which you interpret that as "your decision?"

Cognitive neuroscience has shown that people for the most part make decisions in a systemic way,akin almost to propositional logic.Change one of the premises and you change the outcomes."Thinking" as an activity to acquire information requires conscious effort,however false conclusions can be formed as a result of interference from the limbic system.Generally speaking humans see thinking as a rational process which is why they trust the logic which went on in their head.

[Matsew]

Grow up.

uw0tm8

This thread isn't about science it's about metaphysics. There's no fundamental particle that we can point to consciousness. It heavily implies god.

uw0tm7+2-1

[RomanBrah]

Think about how you pick up a pen. There's some electrical activity in your brain. Your neurons fire. They send a signal down into your nervous system. It passes along down into your muscle fibers. They twitch. You might, say, reach out your arm. It looks like it's a free action on your part, but every one of those - every part of that process is actually governed by physical law, chemical laws, electrical laws, and so on.

So now it just looks like the big bang set up the initial conditions, and the whole rest of human history, and even before, is really just the playing out of subatomic particles according to these basic fundamental physical laws. We think we're special. We think we have some kind of special dignity, but that now comes under threat

Yeah, that's what I always say. Not 100% certain that there isnt something we don't know about that could be giving us free will, but yeah, I agree.