Olympic Lifting and why does everyone advise it?

[EndLineTraining]

I'm a little sick and tired of everyone advising athletes to do Olympic lifts when these athletes clearly don't have qualified coaches to teach them the movement (if they did they wouldn't be asking some of the questions they ask). Go to your local gym and watch people squat....ok well just imagine. Awful forum. Quarter squats, back rounded, on their toes and sissy pad flag a flying. Why is that relevant? Well because everyone and their mother at one point and time knew how to squat. Watch any child pick up a toy and you will witness a perfect ass to grass squat. At one point in time that was all of us but we lost that ability (well most). So if most athletes can't perform an innate movement like the squat then how can members of this forum justify prescribing Olympic lifts that are foreign to most and expect any benefit? In my opinion the squat is like adding and subtracting. It is very basic and straight forward. Deadlifts might be multiplication and division and then way down the list is Calculus as Olympic lifts. Can you learn Calculus on your own? Maybe if you are a genius. But if you want to go from adding and subtracting to calculus you need a teacher to guide you along the way and give you tools (pre-algebra, algebra 1 & 2, pre-calc) so once you are ready you will be successful in calculus. I just started training a NFL free agent in a high school weight room and before we trained I watched 80 athletes half seizering while cleaning and that is the norm not the exception.

The Olympic lifts can be a great tool to develop explosiveness, coordination, power and balance but without proper coaching these lifts are useless. Thoughts?

[anonlifter]

agreed

[beertank23]

Myth #4: Olympic lifts are the only way to get explosive.

Most people say they perform the Olympic lifts because they're "explosive." The truth of the matter is that any lift can be explosive! By incorporating the dynamic-effort method with sub-maximal weights into your program, you can turn any lift into an "explosive" lift.

For example, if a man who can box squat 500 pounds were to train with 275 and focus on accelerating the weight, the box squat would then become an "explosive" lift. This example can hold true for many other exercises as well. By training with weights that represent 50-60% of your 1RM in a given lift, science has proven that the weight is heavy enough to produce adequate force, yet light enough to produce adequate speed. And we should all know that speed times strength = power.

Another reason I feel the Olympic lifts are overrated is that they take a long time to teach and most athletes are horrible at them. After all, Olympic lifting is a sport in and of itself! Olympic weightlifters spend their entire lives practicing these lifts and some of these athletes still never perfect them!

The reason that most non-Olympic weightlifters aren’t great at the Olympic lifts is usually because they aren’t strong enough in the right places. After assessing an athlete’s power clean or power snatch form, I usually conclude that their technique flaws are due to a lack of hamstring, glute and low back strength. This assessment usually means that I end up prescribing more deadlift variations, reverse hyperextensions, glute-ham raises, pull-throughs, etc.

This is called the training economy. Getting stronger in the deadlift, reverse hyperextension and glute-ham raise will improve your power clean, but it doesn’t work the other way around. Basically, I choose the exercises that give my athletes the best "bang for their buck." Another benefit of my "economical" exercises is that they're much less stressful on the wrists, elbows and shoulders compared to the Olympic lifts.

[GlobalConflict]

I'm a little sick and tired of everyone advising athletes to do Olympic lifts when these athletes clearly don't have qualified coaches to teach them the movement (if they did they wouldn't be asking some of the questions they ask). Go to your local gym and watch people squat....ok well just imagine. Awful forum. Quarter squats, back rounded, on their toes and sissy pad flag a flying. Why is that relevant? Well because everyone and their mother at one point and time knew how to squat. Watch any child pick up a toy and you will witness a perfect ass to grass squat. At one point in time that was all of us but we lost that ability (well most). So if most athletes can't perform an innate movement like the squat then how can members of this forum justify prescribing Olympic lifts that are foreign to most and expect any benefit? In my opinion the squat is like adding and subtracting. It is very basic and straight forward. Deadlifts might be multiplication and division and then way down the list is Calculus as Olympic lifts. Can you learn Calculus on your own? Maybe if you are a genius. But if you want to go from adding and subtracting to calculus you need a teacher to guide you along the way and give you tools (pre-algebra, algebra 1 & 2, pre-calc) so once you are ready you will be successful in calculus. I just started training a NFL free agent in a high school weight room and before we trained I watched 80 athletes half seizering while cleaning and that is the norm not the exception.

The Olympic lifts can be a great tool to develop explosiveness, coordination, power and balance but without proper coaching these lifts are useless. Thoughts?

I agree, oly lifts are amazing for creating coordination, balance, power, etc...however, i disagree with your statement about not being able to learn it on your own. I do agree that most people in the gym do not know how to properly squat, but! These people are not athletes by no means.

I would never teach one of my clients a clean and jerk and DEFINITELY not a snatch on their first day or even near the beginning. Im not sure if i understand what you mean by people "prescribing" oly lifts, olympic lifts can be safe and very effective for all people in my opinion.

As for coaching, i do believe olympic lifts should be taught due to their dynamic odd nature combined with fast explosive movements. But i also think people should be coached and taught ALL movements, including bicep curls and even lateral raises because most people do those wrong too.

[ironmaniac508]

Out of personal opinion, I feel athletes should stick with movements that have a simple learning curve, don't require constant coaching and have create a lower risk of injury. Bench pressing with a bar can cause injuries to the shoulder joint if trained improperly and I feel using the football bar or dumbbells with a neutral grip are safer for the athletes. Deadlifts are a great exercise, but many have difficulty properly engaging the hip extension muscles and turn it into a lower back movement.

Olympic lifts are great movements but if you have not been practicing with flawless form for years the athlete will need constant coaching.

[krakkerz]

I'm a little sick and tired of everyone advising athletes to do Olympic lifts when these athletes clearly don't have qualified coaches to teach them the movement (if they did they wouldn't be asking some of the questions they ask). Go to your local gym and watch people squat....ok well just imagine. Awful forum. Quarter squats, back rounded, on their toes and sissy pad flag a flying. Why is that relevant? Well because everyone and their mother at one point and time knew how to squat. Watch any child pick up a toy and you will witness a perfect ass to grass squat. At one point in time that was all of us but we lost that ability (well most). So if most athletes can't perform an innate movement like the squat then how can members of this forum justify prescribing Olympic lifts that are foreign to most and expect any benefit? In my opinion the squat is like adding and subtracting. It is very basic and straight forward. Deadlifts might be multiplication and division and then way down the list is Calculus as Olympic lifts. Can you learn Calculus on your own? Maybe if you are a genius. But if you want to go from adding and subtracting to calculus you need a teacher to guide you along the way and give you tools (pre-algebra, algebra 1 & 2, pre-calc) so once you are ready you will be successful in calculus. I just started training a NFL free agent in a high school weight room and before we trained I watched 80 athletes half seizering while cleaning and that is the norm not the exception.

The Olympic lifts can be a great tool to develop explosiveness, coordination, power and balance but without proper coaching these lifts are useless. Thoughts?

I like Olympic lifts and know how to teach them. Still, I rarely find any requirement for anything beyond a power clean. I've had a few with power snatches, but it's a small minority.

You are correct. You need to be coached correctly. If not, you won't get the benefits, anyway. And the benefits can be had with just the power clean and/or snatch.

[noblet10]

To be perfectly honest, the majority of people probably need a coach to learn to do any proper lifts. That includes the most basic of lifts. I mean, we all see completely terrible looking cheat curls everyday at the gym, and that's one of the most simple lifts there is. Now, anything like squats, dead lifts, rows, or bench press the average person has an entirely too long of a list of things they are doing wrong. They will never do them properly without a coach. Olympic lifts in many cases are the same, but even more so. The snatch in particular.

[DCSpartan]

power cleans are fine if you have bumper plates and can dump the bar. But I can get close to the same impact with KBs with a lot less technique work and wear and tear.

[DREAMChayser]

There are a lot of NFL and D1 players who made it further than the OP using chitty form on cleans, just saying. Sometimes it's not about "perfect form" and just trusting your body and having a spotter. Football players have to be freaks, and that sometimes means violently chucking around heavy weights without much emphasis on form. Srs.

Is it OPTIMAL? No. Is it a great way to emphasize explosive/max effort training and introduce it to high school/collegiate athletes? Yes. Much better than the bench/arms/abs routine you will see on a lot of highschool athletes who don't know any better.

[ironmaniac508]

There are a lot of NFL and D1 players who made it further than the OP using chitty form on cleans, just saying. Sometimes it's not about "perfect form" and just trusting your body and having a spotter. Football players have to be freaks, and that sometimes means violently chucking around heavy weights without much emphasis on form. Srs.

Is it OPTIMAL? No. Is it a great way to emphasize explosive/max effort training and introduce it to high school/collegiate athletes? Yes. Much better than the bench/arms/abs routine you will see on a lot of highschool athletes who don't know any better.

I think the whole point is that using terrible form on Olympic lifts is very easy to do and could injure the athlete, possibly derailing that individuals athletic career. This is one of the reasons why I hate crossfit, because they have people perform complex barbell lifts while in a state of fatigue and for high repetitions. There was a crossfit athlete who paralyzed himself very recently during the snatch...I cant say if it was a max lift or not but they had all the barbells near the pullup bars so I don't know.

And yes training the power clean with **** form could build explosiveness, but I see more pulling with the arms and no attention to triple extension. Again, I feel athletes should spend there time on simple lifts and not let there egos get in the way, the athlete mentality and the weight room may not always be a good mix. Check out a lot of HS or College football weight training lol....1/2 squats, butt off the bench etc.

[ironmaniac508]

With that said, I wish I could have someone coach me on the clean and jerk...I don't know why but the thought of lifting a crap ton of weight overhead turns me on.

[DREAMChayser]

I think the whole point is that using terrible form on Olympic lifts is very easy to do and could injure the athlete, possibly derailing that individuals athletic career. This is one of the reasons why I hate crossfit, because they have people perform complex barbell lifts while in a state of fatigue and for high repetitions. There was a crossfit athlete who paralyzed himself very recently during the snatch...I cant say if it was a max lift or not but they had all the barbells near the pullup bars so I don't know.

And yes training the power clean with **** form could build explosiveness, but I see more pulling with the arms and no attention to triple extension. Again, I feel athletes should spend there time on simple lifts and not let there egos get in the way, the athlete mentality and the weight room may not always be a good mix. Check out a lot of HS or College football weight training lol....1/2 squats, butt off the bench etc.

That last sentence is my point exactly? If college athletes are doing it and not getting injured there are ways to train without perfect form and it is safe. It's not like these players are being told to just pick up a weight and throw it around, I'm sure they still recieve some coaching on their lifts albeit not from Olympic Coaches. The point I'm trying to make is I see no problem with younger athletes and collegiate athletes including powercleans with mediocre form into their routines. It will still most certainly increase their explosiveness. As well as push press and jerks. I don't see many athletes injuring themselves on these lifts although that's not too say it doesn't happen, but respectively it is easy to injure yourself on a squat or bench easily as well.

[EndLineTraining]

THanks for the video and input. Training economy is huge in my personal opinion not to use the Oly lifts in training because the majority of the athletes aren't strong enough and mobile enough to even get into the correct position to begin the lift. If you can't start right how can you finish right?

[weakbastard]

I'm a little sick and tired of everyone advising athletes to do Olympic lifts when these athletes clearly don't have qualified coaches to teach them the movement (if they did they wouldn't be asking some of the questions they ask). Go to your local gym and watch people squat....ok well just imagine. Awful forum. Quarter squats, back rounded, on their toes and sissy pad flag a flying. Why is that relevant? Well because everyone and their mother at one point and time knew how to squat. Watch any child pick up a toy and you will witness a perfect ass to grass squat. At one point in time that was all of us but we lost that ability (well most). So if most athletes can't perform an innate movement like the squat then how can members of this forum justify prescribing Olympic lifts that are foreign to most and expect any benefit? In my opinion the squat is like adding and subtracting. It is very basic and straight forward. Deadlifts might be multiplication and division and then way down the list is Calculus as Olympic lifts. Can you learn Calculus on your own? Maybe if you are a genius. But if you want to go from adding and subtracting to calculus you need a teacher to guide you along the way and give you tools (pre-algebra, algebra 1 & 2, pre-calc) so once you are ready you will be successful in calculus. I just started training a NFL free agent in a high school weight room and before we trained I watched 80 athletes half seizering while cleaning and that is the norm not the exception.

The Olympic lifts can be a great tool to develop explosiveness, coordination, power and balance but without proper coaching these lifts are useless. Thoughts?

I think your last line should have been the first of your post.

Q: Why do people advise oly lifting?
A: The Olympic lifts can be a great tool to develop explosiveness, coordination, power and balance but without proper coaching these lifts are useless.

I guess it would depend how people are advising it.. I wouldn't ever advise to anyone to try learn oly lifts on their own & there is no way anyone could. They might be able to learn some sort of horrid looking variation that they think might be a snatch or a clean, but in reality they'd be missing all the small things.

I guess the easiest way for me to explain that would be to compare crossfitters doing oly lifts compared to oly lifters doing oly lifts. The crossfitters can make it look like they perform the lifts, but to anyone that has an eye for the technique.. they would not really think much of their lifts at all. The rush to get an increase in reps would alone put them off of concentrating on performing the required movements & without the focus could come injuries.

Just a random rant!

btw, Oly lifting is awesome! It shouldn't be looked at the same as bodybuilding or other methods of lifting. I like to think of Oly lifting as more of a game that you are constantly trying to get better at, while constantly trying to better yourself as well. It's all good fun & I actually love that your technique will always feel like it can be better & that even people who have been doing it for 20+ years are still working on improving their technique.

[EndLineTraining]

I agree, oly lifts are amazing for creating coordination, balance, power, etc...however, i disagree with your statement about not being able to learn it on your own. I do agree that most people in the gym do not know how to properly squat, but! These people are not athletes by no means.

I would never teach one of my clients a clean and jerk and DEFINITELY not a snatch on their first day or even near the beginning. Im not sure if i understand what you mean by people "prescribing" oly lifts, olympic lifts can be safe and very effective for all people in my opinion.

As for coaching, i do believe olympic lifts should be taught due to their dynamic odd nature combined with fast explosive movements. But i also think people should be coached and taught ALL movements, including bicep curls and even lateral raises because most people do those wrong too.

Every athlete can also sprint but how many are actually sprinting correctly? I taught myself how to clean and my college S&C coach never corrected the glaring errors that an olympic lifting coach pointed out. Not that the OLY coach was geting nit picky they were huge errors that for some reason S&C coaches don't get taught how to coach.

I would say the vast majority of athletes squatting without a coach squat like crap because I've been to plenty of high school weight rooms to witness this first hand. So why would I tell an athlete to squat on the internet some may ask? Well things can be easily corrected with mobility, stabilizing the trunk, strengthens muscle groups and having the athlete watch videos of good squatters. Squatting is about building strength and not explosive power plus it is way less complex of a movement.

[weakbastard]

And the benefits can be had with just the power clean and/or snatch.

except for the extra weight that can be cleaned if it isn't a power ._.

[weakbastard]

There was a crossfit athlete who paralyzed himself very recently during the snatch...I cant say if it was a max lift or not but they had all the barbells near the pullup bars so I don't know.

From memory it was a 105kg snatch & there were a few 20's piled up behind the guy. The guy failed the lift and dropped the bar behind him & the bar had bounced off the stacked plates behind him, which sent the barbell directly into his back, causing his spine to become severed.

I feel sorry for the guy, it's a retarded thing to do & a pretty horrible accident. The guy was a coach as well.

[EndLineTraining]

There are a lot of NFL and D1 players who made it further than the OP using chitty form on cleans, just saying. Sometimes it's not about "perfect form" and just trusting your body and having a spotter. Football players have to be freaks, and that sometimes means violently chucking around heavy weights without much emphasis on form. Srs.

Is it OPTIMAL? No. Is it a great way to emphasize explosive/max effort training and introduce it to high school/collegiate athletes? Yes. Much better than the bench/arms/abs routine you will see on a lot of highschool athletes who don't know any better.

Idk why putting OP in the first sentence has any relevance at all, I'm sure those people also don't have a B.S. and a Master's degree in Kinesiology which is what I'll have after this year of school. I've played with guys who play in the NFL and they didn't clean at all. Nothing says you have to clean to be in the NFL. I played DB and the majority of the best athletes had the lowest clean numbers on the team.
"Sometimes it's not about "perfect form" and just trusting your body and having a spotter"...spotter for cleans?
I would have to disagree with you on all points of your argument. You can still chuck around heavy things but you are emphasizing poor biomechanics with improper clean technique and thus have a low transfer of training. If you aren't achieving triple extension then what is the point of moving it explosive? Do you want to be explosive in the low back or the hips which you actually use to hit people?

The clean done with improper technique is way slower than a jump and mb throw (they are also more explosive vs. good tech as well). Watch the video posted earlier for where I'm coming from please.

[EndLineTraining]

That last sentence is my point exactly? If college athletes are doing it and not getting injured there are ways to train without perfect form and it is safe. It's not like these players are being told to just pick up a weight and throw it around, I'm sure they still recieve some coaching on their lifts albeit not from Olympic Coaches. The point I'm trying to make is I see no problem with younger athletes and collegiate athletes including powercleans with mediocre form into their routines. It will still most certainly increase their explosiveness. As well as push press and jerks. I don't see many athletes injuring themselves on these lifts although that's not too say it doesn't happen, but respectively it is easy to injure yourself on a squat or bench easily as well.

Safe is a relative term. Nothing in the gym is safe, you can always get injured as you pointed out but each coach needs their own sliding scale of performance to injury and it will never be the same from coach to coach. Unfortunately most coaches don't have a scale period and they allow most anything. Tons of athletes get injured every off-season and 85% of athletes have low back pain so I'm going to have say that proper form should be monitored. There is always going to be some stuff you will let athletes get away with but not improper global movement patterns.

[EndLineTraining]

With that said, I wish I could have someone coach me on the clean and jerk...I don't know why but the thought of lifting a crap ton of weight overhead turns me on.

A lot of good Oly coaches are popping up in CrossFit boxes these days. You should check it out or barbell clubs. They tend not to be very expensive either.

[33wolf]

This is an interesting argument and I dont feel that there is a one size fits all approach. I agree for the majority of people teaching full oly lifts are unnecessary and cut into useful training time. A high level athlete who is proficient in basic gym lifts e.g. squat, deadlift and has the required co-ordination however i believe can be taught basic variations of the oly lifts specifically the power clean, push jerk and muscle snatch as these lifts do have great benefit and can actively aid how athletes develop power especially for power/contact sports such as football, rugby and wrestling/mma.

[DREAMChayser]

Idk why putting OP in the first sentence has any relevance at all, I'm sure those people also don't have a B.S. and a Master's degree in Kinesiology which is what I'll have after this year of school. I've played with guys who play in the NFL and they didn't clean at all. Nothing says you have to clean to be in the NFL. I played DB and the majority of the best athletes had the lowest clean numbers on the team.
"Sometimes it's not about "perfect form" and just trusting your body and having a spotter"...spotter for cleans?
I would have to disagree with you on all points of your argument. You can still chuck around heavy things but you are emphasizing poor biomechanics with improper clean technique and thus have a low transfer of training. If you aren't achieving triple extension then what is the point of moving it explosive? Do you want to be explosive in the low back or the hips which you actually use to hit people?

The clean done with improper technique is way slower than a jump and mb throw (they are also more explosive vs. good tech as well). Watch the video posted earlier for where I'm coming from please.

I wasn't trying to attack you, sorry if it seemed like that, simply playing devils advocate here. I believe there are times when Cleans should be acceptable and when they shouldn't be. I believe if an athlete knows how to squat/deadlift with decent or good form they can pick up a clean with some coaching. Having a spotter behind the person powercleaning can help them if they are struggling on the catch and bailing or supporting their back if the form lingers, or incase of emergency having someone there immediately. A lot of people sprint with bad form also and your right but people don't teach them the correct way, is that too say they shouldnt run sprints either? I am also aware a lot of people don't clean or have low cleans and are extremely athletic but they are genetically gifted, I think no one is going to argue that the power clean wouldn't help increase athleticism. It's also very hard not to achieve triple extension on a clean no matter how bad your form is.

[EndLineTraining]

I wasn't trying to attack you, sorry if it seemed like that, simply playing devils advocate here. I believe there are times when Cleans should be acceptable and when they shouldn't be. I believe if an athlete knows how to squat/deadlift with decent or good form they can pick up a clean with some coaching. Having a spotter behind the person powercleaning can help them if they are struggling on the catch and bailing or supporting their back if the form lingers, or incase of emergency having someone there immediately. A lot of people sprint with bad form also and your right but people don't teach them the correct way, is that too say they shouldnt run sprints either? I am also aware a lot of people don't clean or have low cleans and are extremely athletic but they are genetically gifted, I think no one is going to argue that the power clean wouldn't help increase athleticism. It's also very hard not to achieve triple extension on a clean no matter how bad your form is.

Thank you for your response but unfortunately you have misguided information and a lack of understand of what the movement is all about. It is about teaching fluidity and energy transfer. Please show me any Olympic Lifter ever using a spotter doing the lift. I've been to barbell clubs and have never seen a spotter. I've actually never even heard someone using a spotter. Help someone with the catch? You don't help someone they simply ditch the bar and miss the lift.
As to your last line- go to any high school that doesn't have a coach and then tell me it is hard to not achieve triple extension. Go to any CrossFit class and tell me it is hard not to achieve triple extension. I watched 80 kids clean this morning at 6am and 95% of them didn't achieve anything near proper triple extension and there watch a performance coach watching them. It makes me sick watching it happen. I hope no athlete is reading your comments and believing what you are selling.

[Kansas123]

I feel like Olympic lifts aren't for anyone who already lifts. Someone who weights 200 and benches 300 lbs will snatch less than someone who weighs 150 and benches 170. It's whoever is more flexible.

[Fury22]

Thank you for your response but unfortunately you have misguided information and a lack of understand of what the movement is all about. It is about teaching fluidity and energy transfer. Please show me any Olympic Lifter ever using a spotter doing the lift. I've been to barbell clubs and have never seen a spotter. I've actually never even heard someone using a spotter. Help someone with the catch? You don't help someone they simply ditch the bar and miss the lift.
As to your last line- go to any high school that doesn't have a coach and then tell me it is hard to not achieve triple extension. Go to any CrossFit class and tell me it is hard not to achieve triple extension. I watched 80 kids clean this morning at 6am and 95% of them didn't achieve anything near proper triple extension and there watch a performance coach watching them. It makes me sick watching it happen. I hope no athlete is reading your comments and believing what you are selling.

There was a video going around on Youtube of some high school kid cleaning with spotters. I have seen it in the gym before. SPotter helped the dude stand up. I personally thought it was stupid, not to mention dangerous. That's why we have bumper plates.

[krakkerz]

I wasn't trying to attack you, sorry if it seemed like that, simply playing devils advocate here. I believe there are times when Cleans should be acceptable and when they shouldn't be. I believe if an athlete knows how to squat/deadlift with decent or good form they can pick up a clean with some coaching. Having a spotter behind the person powercleaning can help them if they are struggling on the catch and bailing or supporting their back if the form lingers, or incase of emergency having someone there immediately. A lot of people sprint with bad form also and your right but people don't teach them the correct way, is that too say they shouldnt run sprints either? I am also aware a lot of people don't clean or have low cleans and are extremely athletic but they are genetically gifted, I think no one is going to argue that the power clean wouldn't help increase athleticism. It's also very hard not to achieve triple extension on a clean no matter how bad your form is.

If you need a spotter for a clean, you're using too much weight and have missed the whole point of the lift.

[DREAMChayser]

No one said you "need" a spotter. I don't know what else needs to be said, how could having a spotter ever be a bad thing? If they fall backwards on the catch the spotter just puts his hand on his lower back and helps them regain balance. Not rocket science. Also endline just because you have built a reputation on this forum you are getting a little egotistic. EVERY single college in the country probably incorporates some form of an olympic lift in their program for football players. Not sure what you're trying to get at.

[krakkerz]

except for the extra weight that can be cleaned if it isn't a power ._.

For an athlete who is not an Oly lifter, teaching to catch in the bottom is necessarily the longest and most difficult part of the process. In my personal opinion, the advantages of any increased weight are offset by the increased coaching requirement. Especially where juniors and groups are concerned.

In any case, you can use the clean pull to increase the weight above what you can with even a full clean.

There are some who can naturally learn the complete movements. If they manage them properly, it's fine to include them in their training. But toiling away at the technicalities of the movement (in someone who is not able to manage it) is not valuable nor is it necessarily transferable.

[krakkerz]

No one said you "need" a spotter. I don't know what else needs to be said, how could having a spotter ever be a bad thing? If they fall backwards on the catch the spotter just puts his hand on his lower back and helps them regain balance. Not rocket science. Also endline just because you have built a reputation on this forum you are getting a little egotistic. EVERY single college in the country probably incorporates some form of an olympic lift in their program for football players. Not sure what you're trying to get at.

This was your first sentence on this thread.....

"There are a lot of NFL and D1 players who made it further than the OP"

I'd suggest people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I haven't seen where anyone has made a personal attack against you here. Why not keep it to the topic at hand?

[DREAMChayser]

This was your first sentence on this thread.....

"There are a lot of NFL and D1 players who made it further than the OP"

I'd suggest people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I haven't seen where anyone has made a personal attack against you here. Why not keep it to the topic at hand?

Which I already apologized for. Simply was trying to say he seems to believe his idea in the op is the "End all be all" per say. When it most certainly is not.