"That doesn't work for me"

[Kraken]

I love lines like this when someone is debating your side of a dietary argument. I can provide my pics, my research, my clients, studies, etc, to show how effective certain dietary principles are, but someone comes along and say "That might work for you, but it just doesn't work for me".

To make things even more ironic, the person responding to you has never even been under 15% body fat, and sits around 18% or higher most of the time to begin with. As far as I am am concerned, if someone hasn't been below 12 or 13%, then they truly don't know what works and doesn't work, and they don't understand the basics of diet. I have found, getting to 13% was easy, I could do it on almost any diet and exercise program. It was getting to 8% that really tested me and made me realize how little I knew of diet before.

K, rant over. Just needed a place to vent.

dear diary

[AlwaysTryin]

This isn't the misc

[lee__d]

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...different.html

[kanis999]

I get in these arguments with most of bb.com all the time lol. Who cares? Once somebody has decided "That doesn't work for me", it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that you can't do anything about unless you really make that person believe in the science. (From the perspective that belief = both acceptance of fact and emotional attachment to that fact)

For optimal results, you need to both find the correct science AND believe in that science. Unfortunately people have these emotional beliefs about false sciences too, so they'll fight you to the death over the belief.

[WonderPug]

As far as I am am concerned, if someone hasn't been below 12 or 13%, then they truly don't know what works and doesn't work, and they don't understand the basics of diet.

Wow. Just wow.

[kanis999]

Wow. Just wow.

Yeah, he basically just started the same debate as:

"Ian McCarthy is smart and highly educated but his physique doesn't show it, therefore we shouldn't listen to him"

Please let's not start this debate.

[Kraken]

Wow. Just wow.

Getting to 13% is easy. Getting to 7-8% takes actual knowledge of what you're doing.

Yeah, he basically just started the same debate as:

"Ian McCarthy is smart and highly educated but his physique doesn't show it, therefore we shouldn't listen to him"

Please let's not start this debate.

did you really just use Ian McCarthy for a debate on somemone that knows what he's talking about?

I don't put muscle building in to the same category. Muscle takes years and years to build, even if you know everything about gaining muscle. Diet, OTOH, you can prove you know what you're doing in a matter of a couple/few months.

Most people just have themselves fooled in to thinking they know diet when they have never been lean

[Former300lber]

Getting to 13% is easy. Getting to 7-8% takes actual knowledge of what you're doing.



did you really just use Ian McCarthy for a debate on somemone that knows what he's talking about?

I don't put muscle building in to the same category. Muscle takes years and years to build, even if you know everything about gaining muscle. Diet, OTOH, you can prove you know what you're doing in a matter of a couple/few months.

Most people just have themselves fooled in to thinking they know diet when they have never been lean

Your joking right? you use the exact same principles you used to get to 13% as you would to get to 7-8%, I would know, I've been there and done that, caloric deficit + patience = results no matter what, not rocket science.

[WonderPug]

Yeah, he basically just started the same debate as...

Yup.

It's very sad to watch "bros" embarrass themselves.

[Kraken]

Your joking right? you use the exact same principles you used to get to 13% as you would to get to 7-8%, I would know, I've been there and done that, caloric deficit + patience = results no matter what, not rocket science.

You would think so, but that's not the case. People seem to think it's all about eating healthy. They claim to track what they eat, but apparently not carefully enough. Getting to 13% for most people is simply the result of making lifestyle changes, like better food choices that were naturally less in calories, and exercising, which put them at a higher caloric deficit. They equate this initial weight loss with eating healthy, when in reality, it was all about the calories from day 1. Then, they start makin excuses why they can't get leaner, like "That diet didn't work for me". Uhhh, no, that diet didn't work for you because you weren't tracking your calories or tracking them accurately enough. There less room for error and less "winging it".

That's my point. It's the threshold that teaches people what it REALLY takes to get leaner, and IMO, 99% of the people that haven't gotten that lean, don't understand the basic concepts.

MOST on this board are well aware of all of this, which is why I brought the rant here. We share a common concept on dieting

[MrBillson]

Your joking right? you use the exact same principles you used to get to 13% as you would to get to 7-8%, I would know, I've been there and done that, caloric deficit + patience = results no matter what, not rocket science.

This.

I know how to get to very low body fat, I just have no reason to do so.

Does that mean I don't understand nutrition? No.

Your respnse should always be to what is said; not who speaks.

[Kraken]

Your respnse should always be to what is said; not who speaks.

It is what is said; That diet doesn't work for me"

How do you know, when you don't know how diet works in the first place. By telling me a diet didn't work, it tells me you don't know how to diet. Every diet works, so long as you have the basic principles of dieting down.

[MrBillson]

You would think so, but that's not the case. People seem to think it's all about eating healthy. They claim to track what they eat, but apparently not carefully enough. Getting to 13% for most people is simply the result of making lifestyle changes, like better food choices that were naturally less in calories, and exercising, which put them at a higher caloric deficit. They equate this initial weight loss with eating healthy, when in reality, it was all about the calories from day 1. Then, they start makin excuses why they can't get leaner, like "That diet didn't work for me". Uhhh, no, that diet didn't work for you because you weren't tracking your calories or tracking them accurately enough. There less room for error and less "winging it".

That's my point. It's the threshold that teaches people what it REALLY takes to get leaner, and IMO, 99% of the people that haven't gotten that lean, don't understand the basic concepts.

What if they haven't gained enough size to require a cut yet? Or if their priority is strength/size? Or if they're injured and can no longer train? Or if they're too busy with other commitments to get that low? Or if they just don't want to?

Is it not possible for those people to understand the basics of nutrition?

What you're doing here is making a mass judgement based on a small number of encounters.

[Kraken]

What if they haven't gained enough size to require a cut yet? Or if their priority is strength/size? Or if they're injured and can no longer train? Or if they're too busy with other commitments to get that low? Or if they just don't want to?

Is it not possible for those people to understand the basics of nutrition?

What you're doing here is making a mass judgement based on a small number of encounters.

You're grasping at straws now. That's not the case here, so those points are moot. The person attempted a diet, failed, and blamed it on the diet.

[WonderPug]

This video is perfect for this situation:

[MrBillson]

You're grasping at straws now. That's not the case here, so those points are moot. The person attempted a diet, failed, and blamed it on the diet.

Your claim was that people who haven't dieted down to 13% don't understand the basics of nutrition.

I listed some examples of people who may well understand nutrition but have stayed above 13% for other reasons.

[Kraken]

Your claim was that people who haven't dieted down to 13% don't understand the basics of nutrition.

I listed some examples of people who may well understand nutrition but have stayed above 13% for other reasons.

No, my argument is, someone telling me a diet doesn't work, when they have never successfully dieted. Getting to 13% as a BBer doesnt constitute anything special.

[MrBillson]

No, my argument is, someone telling me a diet doesn't work, when they have never successfully dieted. Getting to 13% as a BBer doesnt constitute anything special.

If you're wrong you're wrong, and if you're right you're right; regardless of what the person you're talking to looks like.

[Kraken]

If you're wrong you're wrong, and if you're right you're right; regardless of what the person you're talking to looks like.

Ok, fair enough. I see your point. I'll try to come up with a more constructive way to think about it.

It's just one of these replies that I get so often, it's burning me up.

[Former300lber]

Ok, fair enough. I see your point. I'll try to come up with a more constructive way to think about it.

It's just one of these replies that I get so often, it's burning me up.

I think what your trying to say is the vast majority of people who are dieting down lack the self discipline and motivation to get lean, that doesn't necessarily mean they don't know how to get there, they just don't want it bad enough. Which I agree with, too many time's have I seen people get comfortable and give up even tho there ab's were 4 week's away, they just didn't want it bad enough.

[MrBillson]

Ok, fair enough. I see your point. I'll try to come up with a more constructive way to think about it.

It's just one of these replies that I get so often, it's burning me up.

It would be more effective to deconstruct their argument and explain to them why they are wrong and why you are right, rather than falling back on argumentum ad hominem (as explained in the video above). If you're right and you know why, then you should be able to win the argument. If they're too stubborn to see reason then they're not worth the time it takes to educate them.

[Kraken]

It would be more effective to deconstruct their argument and explain to them why they are wrong and why you are right, rather than falling back on argumentum ad hominem (as explained in the video above). If you're right and you know why, then you should be able to win the argument. If they're too stubborn to see reason then they're not worth the time it takes to educate them.

Most of the debates simply end in "Well, we are all different. What works for you, might not work for someone else". THAT'S when I want to say "how do you know what works for you, when you have never successfully dieted?"

[kanis999]

did you really just use Ian McCarthy for a debate on somemone that knows what he's talking about?

I don't put muscle building in to the same category. Muscle takes years and years to build, even if you know everything about gaining muscle. Diet, OTOH, you can prove you know what you're doing in a matter of a couple/few months.

Most people just have themselves fooled in to thinking they know diet when they have never been lean

Nah, the metaphor wasn't meant to liken anyone to Ian McCarthy. I'm simply pointing out that there is often a sharp divide between the advice coming from 'science' people and 'experienced' people, and that a comment you seemed to indicate you favor anecdotes from experienced people over science from intellectual people.

I like my philosophy to contain a healthy mix of both science and anecdotes. Example: I listen to Lyle McDonald. Very intellectual and scientific. I also listen to Chris Jones and Dorian Yates, however, because a lot of their anecdotal evidence has rung true for me.

I knew EXACTLY what to do to get to 8% bodyfat before I ever went below 13% btw. And it worked. I was shredded as phuck thanks to the advice of the other kind gentlemen in this thread giving good advice (despite not being 8% themselves)

[Domicron]

Most of the debates simply end in "Well, we are all different. What works for you, might not work for someone else". THAT'S when I want to say "how do you know what works for you, when you have never successfully dieted?"

who are you debating with? because maybe much of your frustration could be avoided by letting them do what they want. if people ask you for help and then disregard your advice, you can turn it around on them: this is what i learned and i have research and personal experience which backs up my beliefs; if you want to know what i do, then here you.

if you're over hearing people talking and then getting into arguments with them, then maybe you are asking to be pissed off.

[Kraken]

who are you debating with? because maybe much of your frustration could be avoided by letting them do what they want. if people ask you for help and then disregard your advice, you can turn it around on them: this is what i learned and i have research and personal experience which backs up my beliefs; if you want to know what i do, then here you.

if you're over hearing people talking and then getting into arguments with them, then maybe you are asking to be pissed off.

Everywhere...friends, gym buddies, forums etc. It amazes me how many people still believe in the myth that eating healthy or doing low carb etc is how one loses fat. Very few people I interact with have the concept of basic dieting.

[necon76]

Getting to 13% is easy. Getting to 7-8% takes actual knowledge of what you're doing.

It's dedication & willpower that make the difference. The principles remain the same.

[kanis999]

Everywhere...friends, gym buddies, forums etc. It amazes me how many people still believe in the myth that eating healthy or doing low carb etc is how one loses fat. Very few people I interact with have the concept of basic dieting.

Does this thread have any purpose other than to try and convince us all that we're wrong? Because you'd have to look like Frank Zane meets Brad Pitt meets Jesus in order to convince me my well developed and extremely effective principles are a bunch of garbage (I swear by keto diets for fat loss. Keto will make that 13% bodyfat plateau disappear completely.)

[Kraken]

Does this thread have any purpose other than to try and convince us all that we're wrong? Because you'd have to look like Frank Zane meets Brad Pitt meets Jesus in order to convince me my well developed and extremely effective principles are a bunch of garbage (I swear by keto diets for fat loss. Keto will make that 13% bodyfat plateau disappear completely.)

Just needed a place to vent.

and I hope you're kidding about the keto comment.

as I mentioned, any diet can work. It's just a matter of a caloric deficit. No caloric deficit, no weight loss.

[Domicron]

Everywhere...friends, gym buddies, forums etc. It amazes me how many people still believe in the myth that eating healthy or doing low carb etc is how one loses fat. Very few people I interact with have the concept of basic dieting.

i hope you're not one of those who think that being in good physical shape gives you authority or knowledge when lecturing to others about diet and nutrition. if you're just going up to people trying to tell them how to eat and what they think and know is wrong: you're a dick.

[Kraken]

i hope you're not one of those who think that being in good physical shape gives you authority or knowledge when lecturing to others about diet and nutrition. if you're just going up to people trying to tell them how to eat and what they think and know is wrong: you're a dick.

You assume way too much. It naturally comes up when you look like you lift.