I just purchased and read Wendler's new Beyond 531 book. My question centers on the use / frequency of Joker Sets.
In Beyond 531 Wendler states that the PR set, First Set Last and Joker Sets are essential elements to the 531 program. I am currently running the "old" original version of 531 and doing BBB. The original version has the PR set but not the other two. I like the addition of the First Set Last for AMRAP plus 3 Joker Sets but my question comes up when you roll in the BBB.....it seems like a lot of sets. I really like the BBB and since I started using it two cycles ago, I think I have gotten stronger and made positive gains. I would prefer not to drop BBB from the routines.
When I say too many sets, here is what I mean. For example, lets say you are using 300lbs for your squat day training max. Your week one sets would look like this:
Set 1-195x5
Set 2-225x5
Set 3-255x5+ (say 5 reps)
First Set Last AMRAP 195x? (say 8 reps)
Joker set 1 - 285x5
Joker set 2 - 315x5
Joker set 3 -330x2
After those sets, then you would move over to BBB at 150lbs for 5 sets of 10......50 reps total.
Doesn't this seem like a large number of sets to do for a 6 week period?? Especially since the weights ramp up as you move through the 6 week period.
If you total all the weight lifted as listed above, it equals 16,095 pounds moved in one exercise on one day.
How do you guys use Joker sets as to frequency?
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01-21-2014, 01:06 PM #1
Beyond 531 question - Joker Sets, First Set Last and BBB
“Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify.” ― Henry David Thoreau. This is why I am running the 5/3/1 program.
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01-21-2014, 01:45 PM #2
I'm currently using 5/3/1, have been for almost a year now. Right after the book was released I started running it with joker sets and first set last both. It is a lot of volume. But it works. I usually try to stick to just one joker set. Like today for bench (first week of new cycle) my sets went like this. 225x5, 255x5, 290x9 (rep out set), I then moved straight to my only joker set, instead of working my way up slower I picked a weight that I knew was going to be a good struggle to hit for 5 rep but that was achievable, so I did 320x5. Then I dropped back to my first set last, and did 3 sets of 8-10 reps (10 on first 2, 8 on the last one) with the weight I used on my first set, 225. Like I said earlier, the volume is a lot but it's very effective for me. Others may set theirs up differently but I've found that this works best for me. Since switching from BBB to jokers and fsl, I've been adding a good 5-10 pounds per cycle on to my bench and OHP max and a good 15-20 per cycle on my deadlift and squat max.
Curret Best Meet Lifts
SQ- 606lbs
BP- 424lbs
DL-738lbs
T- 1,752 lbs
@ 198 lbs. Raw without wraps
Follow me on Instagram @TPAYNTER
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01-21-2014, 02:35 PM #3
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01-21-2014, 02:41 PM #4
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01-21-2014, 03:36 PM #5
- Join Date: Dec 2013
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- Rep Power: 195
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01-21-2014, 04:04 PM #6
Should look like this (note that FSL was moved to the end):
Set 1-195x5
Set 2-225x5
Set 3-255x5+ (say 5 reps)
Joker set 1 - 285x5
Joker set 2 - 315x5
Joker set 3 -330x5
First Set Last AMRAP 195x? (say 8 reps)
After those sets, then you would move over to BBB at 150lbs for 5 sets of 10......50 reps total.
Doesn't this seem like a large number of sets to do for a 6 week period?? Especially since the weights ramp up as you move through the 6 week period.
Version 1
Squat - 5/3/1
Squat - 5x10
Bench - 5/3/1
Bench - 5x10
etc...
Version 2
Squat - 5/3/1
Deadlift - 5x10
Bench - 5/3/1
Press - 5x10
Deadlift - 5/3/1
Squat - 5x10
Press - 5/3/1
Bench - 5x10
If you're going to use Jokers and FSL I'd probably do version 2.Disclaimer: I am not an expert.
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01-21-2014, 04:32 PM #7
- Join Date: Jul 2010
- Location: Chula Vista, California, United States
- Age: 34
- Posts: 3,701
- Rep Power: 2163
If bulking do everything. If maintaining, do joker if possible, if not, do first set last. I'm cutting and doing the original. That's what I've decided to do.
Started losing weight in 2010 at 300 lbs
Started lifting April 2013
5'7" 171 lbs
Progress / Goal:
B.S. Computer Science & Engineering in May 2018 / Graduate with my B.S.
14% BF / 10% BF
Deadlift 495 lbs / 585 lbs
Front Squat 275 lbs / 315 lbs
Pull ups (bar to chest) 12 / 20
Weighted Dips +70 / +90
Mile Run 7:30 min / 6:00 min
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01-21-2014, 05:34 PM #8
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01-21-2014, 06:37 PM #9
Many thanks to everyone that replied.....the responses were great. You guys are right............the one thing about 531 is that there are a multitude of variations....you can't go wrong. I see that from your responses. I'll take your advice, experiment and see what happens.
For now, I will add in one Joker set, a FSL set and keep the BBB. I will see what the end of the cycle brings and go from there.
In reading this new version of the book / program I think that I could run some variation of the 531 program forever. This will likely be the only program I run from now on in some form or fashion. I have run the original version for 6 months now and really like it. This newer 6 week cycle should prove even better.“Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify.” ― Henry David Thoreau. This is why I am running the 5/3/1 program.
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01-21-2014, 07:37 PM #10
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01-21-2014, 08:37 PM #11
if you're having a great session, and you know you can make another 5% or 10% jump with the joker sets then do it! that is an opportunity for more growth/development, both physically and mentally. most certainly do not have the best lift of your life and limit yourself to one joker set. if you feel good, do more! but just don't overshoot.
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01-22-2014, 03:17 AM #12
You could do BBB FSL. So the first set last 5x10. Jim says that you can do either AMRAP or 3-5 Sets of 8-10 reps I believe. Though this way you should probably do the same movement as the book says.
I did FSL 5x5 and did more difficult variations.
Bench: feet-up, flat footed, closer grip, with pause etc.
Squat: paused
Deadlift: deficit, snatch grip etc.
OHP: behind the neck
This worked for me and if/when I go back to it I'll do it again.
But in the the main 5/3/1 sets are what matter the most. Everything else is extra.Pokemon X and Y crew FC: 5215-0470-3034 (X)
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01-22-2014, 09:56 AM #13
- Join Date: Jul 2007
- Location: California, United States
- Age: 51
- Posts: 377
- Rep Power: 2556
In the post linked below Wendler does not advocate Joker/FSL and BBB together.
http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_onl...531/beyond_53167Vert
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01-22-2014, 10:49 AM #14
interesting. i know he knows a lot more than me, but if you can recover fine from doing it all together, why not? BBB is definitely more accessory than joker sets and first set last so i would just do BBB after those if you are including them.
either way, you gotta do what you enjoy the most. yes this sport is about getting strong and improving your total but you have to enjoy it, in a certain way, too. otherwise it becomes a chore instead of something you look forward to
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01-22-2014, 11:01 AM #15
- Join Date: Jul 2007
- Location: California, United States
- Age: 51
- Posts: 377
- Rep Power: 2556
Word. I'm betting that you know yourself better than he does. We'll probably find Joker/FSL/BBB in his next book, LOL, jk.
I just started week 2 cycle 2 BBB and have already bastardized the progression to keep my heaviest working sets of Deads under 10 reps. With that minor tweak, I'll probably stay true to the program for the remainder of my bulk currently targeted to end March 31.67Vert
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01-22-2014, 11:16 AM #16
I just have the 531 2nd edition but I have been doing the 531 lift then 1 joker set if I had a good set on my plus set. I always then go and do the first set last amrap. Then opposing lift I do BBB. Only ran it for one cycle but I did hit some good PRs on bench and OHP. Have been tweaking my squat and deads technique a lot but I'm looking forward to running it a second cycle starting next week and seeing the gainz
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01-22-2014, 11:26 AM #17
The Excel sheet I came up with has the regular 531 sets, one Joker set and the FSL for AMRAP. From there I move over to BBB at 50% of the training max for 5x10. I will run that set up for one six week cycle and see what happens. I like having the Joker set in there since it will be a flexible set. If I am feeling good, I'll do it. If not, I'll do the regular 3 sets plus the FSL and move on.
The more I look at this program / book, the more I realize there are almost endless combinations you can run. Baxtej44 is right....this is supposed to be fun and not some chore that you don't look forward to doing.....wait.......isn't that called work?
And 67vert, you may be correct. The next update on the program might just have all three run together.....................“Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify.” ― Henry David Thoreau. This is why I am running the 5/3/1 program.
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03-04-2014, 09:11 AM #18
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12-10-2017, 12:51 PM #19
- Join Date: Mar 2009
- Location: Gurgaon, Haryana, India
- Age: 45
- Posts: 395
- Rep Power: 294
App help
Hey all!
I use an app to do all 531 work. It is by Sarasoft. Very user friendly and makes my life easy.
This is how I do it. Please give your inputs.
I do regular 531 sets and do jokers and FSL IF I am able to do last AMAPR or the "+" set for the required number of reps to "earn" joker sets. If I don't do Jokers then I do BBB THAT DAY.
Eg:
Dec 9th workout:
Warm up: (in Kgs)
20 x 5,
25 x 5,
30 x 5.
Main:
37.5 x 5,
42.5 x 5,
47.5 x 8 : I "earned" jokers so went on:
50 x 5,
52.5 x 4,
55 x 3.
Then FSL :
37.5 x 11.
NO BBB!
As compared to squat day ( I don't go ninja on Squats anymore!)
Warmup:
40 x 5,
50 x 5,
60 x 5.
Main:
70 x 5,
82.5 x 5,
92.5 x 4.
Then FSL:
70 x 6.
Done.
I don't do BBB on LB only UP and only IF I don't earn jokers.
Please critique.
Regards.
PS: Coming from SS/SL 531 is so much fun!!!!!! Doesn't feel like a drag.On 5/3/1.
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12-10-2017, 01:00 PM #20
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12-10-2017, 11:08 PM #21
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12-10-2017, 11:13 PM #22
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12-11-2017, 05:57 AM #23
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12-11-2017, 07:08 PM #24
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12-11-2017, 07:21 PM #25
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12-11-2017, 08:48 PM #26
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12-12-2017, 03:00 AM #27
- Join Date: Jun 2016
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- Age: 31
- Posts: 11,166
- Rep Power: 52549
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12-12-2017, 04:09 PM #28
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12-13-2017, 10:40 AM #29
You could. But you don't have to. First Set Last is a good way to get extra volume in. Same goes for BBB. Do both, pick one, alternate. Whatever works. When I did 5/3/1, I used to do opposing movements for the BBB. I would do the regular squat 5/3/1 and follow it up deadlift BBB and vice versa. Bench/Military Press in the same manner. Kept it less "boring" for me haha.
Best Meet Lifts:
SQ: 460 (sleeves)
BP: 350
DL: 510
Total: 1300 (242 wrapped)
"I refuse to tip-toe through life, only to arrive safely at death"
www.animalpak.com
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12-16-2017, 04:53 AM #30
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