Beyond 531 question - Joker Sets, First Set Last and BBB

[rjm522]

I just purchased and read Wendler's new Beyond 531 book. My question centers on the use / frequency of Joker Sets.

In Beyond 531 Wendler states that the PR set, First Set Last and Joker Sets are essential elements to the 531 program. I am currently running the "old" original version of 531 and doing BBB. The original version has the PR set but not the other two. I like the addition of the First Set Last for AMRAP plus 3 Joker Sets but my question comes up when you roll in the BBB.....it seems like a lot of sets. I really like the BBB and since I started using it two cycles ago, I think I have gotten stronger and made positive gains. I would prefer not to drop BBB from the routines.

When I say too many sets, here is what I mean. For example, lets say you are using 300lbs for your squat day training max. Your week one sets would look like this:

Set 1-195x5
Set 2-225x5
Set 3-255x5+ (say 5 reps)
First Set Last AMRAP 195x? (say 8 reps)
Joker set 1 - 285x5
Joker set 2 - 315x5
Joker set 3 -330x2

After those sets, then you would move over to BBB at 150lbs for 5 sets of 10......50 reps total.

Doesn't this seem like a large number of sets to do for a 6 week period?? Especially since the weights ramp up as you move through the 6 week period.

If you total all the weight lifted as listed above, it equals 16,095 pounds moved in one exercise on one day.

How do you guys use Joker sets as to frequency?

[TPAYNTER]

I'm currently using 5/3/1, have been for almost a year now. Right after the book was released I started running it with joker sets and first set last both. It is a lot of volume. But it works. I usually try to stick to just one joker set. Like today for bench (first week of new cycle) my sets went like this. 225x5, 255x5, 290x9 (rep out set), I then moved straight to my only joker set, instead of working my way up slower I picked a weight that I knew was going to be a good struggle to hit for 5 rep but that was achievable, so I did 320x5. Then I dropped back to my first set last, and did 3 sets of 8-10 reps (10 on first 2, 8 on the last one) with the weight I used on my first set, 225. Like I said earlier, the volume is a lot but it's very effective for me. Others may set theirs up differently but I've found that this works best for me. Since switching from BBB to jokers and fsl, I've been adding a good 5-10 pounds per cycle on to my bench and OHP max and a good 15-20 per cycle on my deadlift and squat max.

[samsont]

best part of 531 is you can't mess it up. just try whatever you want for a few cycles. adjust if needed. find something that works, stick with it.

[Squatticus]

im trying to be strict when i do my training now so I run the 5 pyramid sets, 5 sets of 10 @ 60% then do my abs or back movement

[WN86]

best part of 531 is you can't mess it up. just try whatever you want for a few cycles. adjust if needed. find something that works, stick with it.

I think this is true. It seems like a really hard program to mess up. It's what I'm going to run after Starting Strength has run it's course.

[somedude999]

When I say too many sets, here is what I mean. For example, lets say you are using 300lbs for your squat day training max. Your week one sets would look like this:

Set 1-195x5
Set 2-225x5
Set 3-255x5+ (say 5 reps)
First Set Last AMRAP 195x? (say 8 reps)
Joker set 1 - 285x5
Joker set 2 - 315x5
Joker set 3 -330x2

Should look like this (note that FSL was moved to the end):

Set 1-195x5
Set 2-225x5
Set 3-255x5+ (say 5 reps)
Joker set 1 - 285x5
Joker set 2 - 315x5
Joker set 3 -330x5
First Set Last AMRAP 195x? (say 8 reps)

After those sets, then you would move over to BBB at 150lbs for 5 sets of 10......50 reps total.

Doesn't this seem like a large number of sets to do for a 6 week period?? Especially since the weights ramp up as you move through the 6 week period.

There's two versions of BBB.

Version 1
Squat - 5/3/1
Squat - 5x10

Bench - 5/3/1
Bench - 5x10

etc...

Version 2

Squat - 5/3/1
Deadlift - 5x10

Bench - 5/3/1
Press - 5x10

Deadlift - 5/3/1
Squat - 5x10

Press - 5/3/1
Bench - 5x10

If you're going to use Jokers and FSL I'd probably do version 2.

[MetalManuel]

If bulking do everything. If maintaining, do joker if possible, if not, do first set last. I'm cutting and doing the original. That's what I've decided to do.

[baxtej44]

you don't have to do joker sets EVERY session. just if you're feeling good. also, the better you are feeling, the more joker sets you can do. and i would suggest doing the BBB as the opposite lift (so BBB squats with 5/3/1 deadlifts, vice versa, and BBB bench with 5/3/1 OHP, vice versa).

[rjm522]

Many thanks to everyone that replied.....the responses were great. You guys are right............the one thing about 531 is that there are a multitude of variations....you can't go wrong. I see that from your responses. I'll take your advice, experiment and see what happens.

For now, I will add in one Joker set, a FSL set and keep the BBB. I will see what the end of the cycle brings and go from there.

In reading this new version of the book / program I think that I could run some variation of the 531 program forever. This will likely be the only program I run from now on in some form or fashion. I have run the original version for 6 months now and really like it. This newer 6 week cycle should prove even better.

[dtaps24]

Should look like this (note that FSL was moved to the end):

Joker set 1 - 285x5
Joker set 2 - 315x5
Joker set 3 -330x5
First Set Last AMRAP 195x? (say 8 reps)

The book used an example like this, but if you can do your 110% of your training max for a set of 5 you're gonna be alright regardless of what you do.

[baxtej44]

Many thanks to everyone that replied.....the responses were great. You guys are right............the one thing about 531 is that there are a multitude of variations....you can't go wrong. I see that from your responses. I'll take your advice, experiment and see what happens.

For now, I will add in one Joker set, a FSL set and keep the BBB. I will see what the end of the cycle brings and go from there.

In reading this new version of the book / program I think that I could run some variation of the 531 program forever. This will likely be the only program I run from now on in some form or fashion. I have run the original version for 6 months now and really like it. This newer 6 week cycle should prove even better.

if you're having a great session, and you know you can make another 5% or 10% jump with the joker sets then do it! that is an opportunity for more growth/development, both physically and mentally. most certainly do not have the best lift of your life and limit yourself to one joker set. if you feel good, do more! but just don't overshoot.

[KidAlchemy]

You could do BBB FSL. So the first set last 5x10. Jim says that you can do either AMRAP or 3-5 Sets of 8-10 reps I believe. Though this way you should probably do the same movement as the book says.

I did FSL 5x5 and did more difficult variations.
Bench: feet-up, flat footed, closer grip, with pause etc.
Squat: paused
Deadlift: deficit, snatch grip etc.
OHP: behind the neck

This worked for me and if/when I go back to it I'll do it again.

But in the the main 5/3/1 sets are what matter the most. Everything else is extra.

[67Vert]

In the post linked below Wendler does not advocate Joker/FSL and BBB together.

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_onl...531/beyond_531

[baxtej44]

In the post linked below Wendler does not advocate Joker/FSL and BBB together.

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_onl...531/beyond_531

interesting. i know he knows a lot more than me, but if you can recover fine from doing it all together, why not? BBB is definitely more accessory than joker sets and first set last so i would just do BBB after those if you are including them.


either way, you gotta do what you enjoy the most. yes this sport is about getting strong and improving your total but you have to enjoy it, in a certain way, too. otherwise it becomes a chore instead of something you look forward to

[67Vert]

interesting. i know he knows a lot more than me, but if you can recover fine from doing it all together, why not? BBB is definitely more accessory than joker sets and first set last so i would just do BBB after those if you are including them.


either way, you gotta do what you enjoy the most. yes this sport is about getting strong and improving your total but you have to enjoy it, in a certain way, too. otherwise it becomes a chore instead of something you look forward to

Word. I'm betting that you know yourself better than he does. We'll probably find Joker/FSL/BBB in his next book, LOL, jk.

I just started week 2 cycle 2 BBB and have already bastardized the progression to keep my heaviest working sets of Deads under 10 reps. With that minor tweak, I'll probably stay true to the program for the remainder of my bulk currently targeted to end March 31.

[MattLAX0473]

I just have the 531 2nd edition but I have been doing the 531 lift then 1 joker set if I had a good set on my plus set. I always then go and do the first set last amrap. Then opposing lift I do BBB. Only ran it for one cycle but I did hit some good PRs on bench and OHP. Have been tweaking my squat and deads technique a lot but I'm looking forward to running it a second cycle starting next week and seeing the gainz

[rjm522]

The Excel sheet I came up with has the regular 531 sets, one Joker set and the FSL for AMRAP. From there I move over to BBB at 50% of the training max for 5x10. I will run that set up for one six week cycle and see what happens. I like having the Joker set in there since it will be a flexible set. If I am feeling good, I'll do it. If not, I'll do the regular 3 sets plus the FSL and move on.

The more I look at this program / book, the more I realize there are almost endless combinations you can run. Baxtej44 is right....this is supposed to be fun and not some chore that you don't look forward to doing.....wait.......isn't that called work?

And 67vert, you may be correct. The next update on the program might just have all three run together.....................

[Flyman75]

In the post linked below Wendler does not advocate Joker/FSL and BBB together.

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_onl...531/beyond_531

Not only that, but Wendler says not to do any assistance work with the Joker sets and FSL. He says if you're "training awesome" in the main lifts, then the only other work you need to do is ab work and back lifts.

[Rockfella]

Hey all!

I use an app to do all 531 work. It is by Sarasoft. Very user friendly and makes my life easy.

This is how I do it. Please give your inputs.

I do regular 531 sets and do jokers and FSL IF I am able to do last AMAPR or the "+" set for the required number of reps to "earn" joker sets. If I don't do Jokers then I do BBB THAT DAY.

Eg:
Dec 9th workout:

Warm up: (in Kgs)
20 x 5,
25 x 5,
30 x 5.

Main:
37.5 x 5,
42.5 x 5,
47.5 x 8 : I "earned" jokers so went on:
50 x 5,
52.5 x 4,
55 x 3.
Then FSL :
37.5 x 11.

NO BBB!

As compared to squat day ( I don't go ninja on Squats anymore!)

Warmup:
40 x 5,
50 x 5,
60 x 5.

Main:
70 x 5,
82.5 x 5,
92.5 x 4.

Then FSL:

70 x 6.

Done.

I don't do BBB on LB only UP and only IF I don't earn jokers.

Please critique.

Regards.

PS: Coming from SS/SL 531 is so much fun!!!!!! Doesn't feel like a drag.

[WolfRose7]

I kinda like the FSL if you do Jokers and BBB if not. Though I personally prefer BBS for certain lifts.

What are you setting as the required rep minimum for 5/3/1+ sets?

[Rockfella]

I kinda like the FSL if you do Jokers and BBB if not. Though I personally prefer BBS for certain lifts.

What are you setting as the required rep minimum for 5/3/1+ sets?

App default.

I am actually dual minded now. Want maximum mass so might switch to only 531 and BBB.

[Rockfella]

What is BBS?

I kinda like the FSL if you do Jokers and BBB if not. Though I personally prefer BBS for certain lifts.

What are you setting as the required rep minimum for 5/3/1+ sets?

[WolfRose7]

App default.

I am actually dual minded now. Want maximum mass so might switch to only 531 and BBB.

Whats the app default for 5+ , 3+, 1+ ?

What is BBS?

10 sets of 5

[Rockfella]

Reps required on 3rd set to earn joker sets:
Week 1 9, Week 2 7, Week 3 5.

Whats the app default for 5+ , 3+, 1+ ?
10 sets of 5

[NotThatUgly]

531 is a really great program after you've modified it to be unrecognisable as 531.

[Rockfella]

I wanna do BBB with FSL. Don't have the book. Don't know if I should do FSL and BBB together. Any inputs?

[WolfRose7]

Reps required on 3rd set to earn joker sets:
Week 1 9, Week 2 7, Week 3 5.

Sounds reasonable.

I wanna do BBB with FSL. Don't have the book. Don't know if I should do FSL and BBB together. Any inputs?

Depends on how you mean, they are both supplemental templates, you don't run both on the same day.
You can run one for one lift and another for another though.
Or choose a different one each week.

[Rockfella]

I will do BBB only. I have really dragged SS/SL in low reps. Need some fun training.

Sounds reasonable.
Depends on how you mean, they are both supplemental templates, you don't run both on the same day.
You can run one for one lift and another for another though.
Or choose a different one each week.

[_Aggression_]

I wanna do BBB with FSL. Don't have the book. Don't know if I should do FSL and BBB together. Any inputs?

You could. But you don't have to. First Set Last is a good way to get extra volume in. Same goes for BBB. Do both, pick one, alternate. Whatever works. When I did 5/3/1, I used to do opposing movements for the BBB. I would do the regular squat 5/3/1 and follow it up deadlift BBB and vice versa. Bench/Military Press in the same manner. Kept it less "boring" for me haha.

[Rockfella]

Thanks.

You could. But you don't have to. First Set Last is a good way to get extra volume in. Same goes for BBB. Do both, pick one, alternate. Whatever works. When I did 5/3/1, I used to do opposing movements for the BBB. I would do the regular squat 5/3/1 and follow it up deadlift BBB and vice versa. Bench/Military Press in the same manner. Kept it less "boring" for me haha.