Is this guy right about protein?

[owaz]

Do we really even need 1gr per pound of body weight? Seems like a waste since it turns into carbohydrates when in excess.

BTW here is a link to the study: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172

[Gxp23]

No, he is not.

0.8g is the lowest I would go, although you can get away with 0.6g which I have never tried.

1g is just a save and easy number to round to.

[WonderPug]

Protein requirements to optimize muscle develop and retention vary, but in most individuals, the consumption of ~0.6 to ~0.8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight (or ideal/target bodyweight in the obese) is sufficient.

To learn more, please click here and in summary:

Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.

Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.

Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.

Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.

Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.

Also see:

Effect of protein intake on strength, body composition and endocrine changes in strength/power athletes. Hoffman JR, Ratamess NA, Kang J, Falvo MJ, Faigenbaum AD. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2006 Dec 13;3:12-8.

Macronutrient content of a hypoenergy diet affects nitrogen retention and muscle function in weight lifters. Walberg JL, Leidy MK, Sturgill DJ, Hinkle DE, Ritchey SJ, Sebolt DR. Int J Sports Med. 1988 Aug;9(4):261-6.

Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders. Lemon PW, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1992 Aug;73(2):767-75.

Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass. Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1988 Jan;64(1):187-93.

Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Phillips SM, Van Loon LJ. J Sports Sci. 2011;29 Suppl 1:S29-38.

Protein and amino acid metabolism during and after exercise and the effects of nutrition. Rennie MJ, Tipton KD. Annu Rev Nutr. 2000;20:457-83.

Hartman, J. W., Moore, D. R., & Phillips, S. M. (2006). Resistance training reduces whole-body protein turnover and improves net protein retention in untrained young males. Applied Physiology, Nutrition and Metabolism, 31, 557–564.

Moore, D. R., Del Bel, N. C., Nizi, K. I., Hartman, J. W., Tang, J. E., Armstrong, D. et al. (2007). Resistance training reduces fasted- and fed-state leucine turnover and increases dietary nitrogen retention in previously untrained young men. Journal of Nutrition, 137, 985–991.

Effects of exercise on dietary protein requirements. Lemon PW. Int J Sport Nutr. 1998 Dec;8(4):426-47.

Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training. Rozenek R, Ward P, Long S, Garhammer J. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2002 Sep;42(3):340-7.

Increased protein maintains nitrogen balance during exercise-induced energy deficit. Pikosky MA, Smith TJ, Grediagin A, Castaneda-Sceppa C, Byerley L, Glickman EL, Young AJ. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2008 Mar;40(3):505-12.

Dietary carbohydrate-to-fat ratio: influence on whole-body nitrogen retention, substrate utilization, and hormone response in healthy male subjects. McCargar LJ, Clandinin MT, Belcastro AN, Walker K. Am J Clin Nutr. 1989 Jun;49(6):1169-78.

Macronutrient Intakes as Determinants of Dietary Protein and Amino Acid Adequacy. Millward, DJ. J. Nutr. June 1, 2004 vol. 134 no. 6 1588S-1596S.

[MrBillson]

I'm usually under 0.8. I'm ~175lb at the moment and usually take about 130g.

Haven't noticed any detrimental effects so far.

[rhadam]

Need? No. Can amounts of 1g or higher be useful at certain stages of dieting? Yes. I'll use 1g or higher when cutting as protein is muscle sparing, expensive for the body to use as energy, and keeps me satiated.

[chancellor14]

Do we really even need 1gr per pound of body weight? Seems like a waste since it turns into carbohydrates when in excess.

BTW here is a link to the study: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172

on a bulk you can get away with .8-1lb. But on a cut you need at least 1.5xbw to maintain

[Bartmann123]

on a bulk you can get away with .8-1lb. But on a cut you need at least 1.5xbw to maintain

Stop posting that you need 1.5X bodyweight of protein. THIS IS NOT TRUE.

[WonderPug]

Need? No. Can amounts of 1g or higher be useful at certain stages of dieting? Yes. I'll use 1g or higher when cutting as protein is muscle sparing, expensive for the body to use as energy, and keeps me satiated.

To expand on this, higher protein intake can increase satiety, palatability, compliance, energy, performance, etc. in some individuals and it can have the opposite effect in other individuals, regardless of total energy intake, but as energy intake becomes acutely hypocaloric, the probability of a better outcome with higher protein intake increases, especially on a standard diet as opposed to a specialized protocol such as VLCKD.

on a bulk you can get away with .8-1lb. But on a cut you need at least 1.5xbw to maintain

Please stop posting this utter crap.






General disclaimer: I have not watched the video posted in the OP and I'm just commenting on the relevant research that I'm aware on the topic of protein intake and hypertrophy.

[owaz]

To expand on this, higher protein intake can increase satiety, palatability, compliance, energy, performance, etc. in some individuals and it can have the opposite effect in other individuals, regardless of total energy intake, but as energy intake becomes acutely hypocaloric, the probability of a better outcome with higher protein intake increases, especially on a standard diet as opposed to a specialized protocol such as VLCKD.

Please stop posting this utter crap.

Yes I know that protein can be beneficial in terms of satiety when on a cut. The main reason I asked this is because I currently consume 150 grams of protein and if I could cut that down and make room for carbohydrate's it would help me performance wise during training. The study and the video say that we only need 1-1.5 gram per Kilogram of bodyweight.

I'm at about 180 pounds which is 82 kilograms. That means I would need only 82-123 grams of protein to build optimal muscle mass according to that study.

[AlwaysTryin]

on a bulk you can get away with .8-1lb. But on a cut you need at least 1.5xbw to maintain

You were warned

[owaz]

General disclaimer: I have not watched the video posted in the OP and I'm just commenting on the relevant research that I'm aware on the topic of protein intake and hypertrophy.

If you watch the video it basically summarizes the entire study on both steroid enhanced and non-steroid enhanced people lol

It shows that we do not need as much protein even if you were using gear.

[Bartmann123]

Yes I know that protein can be beneficial in terms of satiety when on a cut. The main reason I asked this is because I currently consume 150 grams of protein and if I could cut that down and make room for carbohydrate's it would help me performance wise during training. The study and the video say that we only need 1-1.5 gram per Kilogram of bodyweight.

I'm at about 180 pounds which is 82 kilograms. That means I would need only 82-123 grams of protein to build optimal muscle mass according to that study.

I would say not to go under .6 grams per pound, or 108 g. You can try to go down that low, but keep in mind that more carbs does not necessarily mean more energy and performance in the gym. Try it out and then decide which macro breakdown you like more.

[Gxp23]

You were warned

Mods are lenient tonight.

[WonderPug]

The study and the video say that we only need 1-1.5 gram per Kilogram of bodyweight.

If you read the research that I cited above, you'll learn that there's a broad range of intakes that might be sufficient, based on a number of variables.

Short-term, intake at or near the RDA is likely sufficient to maintain muscle mass unless one is in an acute energy deficiency and/or under acute metabolic strain.

~0.6 grams per pound of bodyweight is likely sufficient to get close enough to optimize gains as to be a good baseline for the typical lifter, with ~0.8 being a better target for those who want a bit of extra insurance, especially when in a significant caloric deficit.

Of course, there are many reasons to consume more protein, with my favorite reason being that steak tastes great.

[chancellor14]

To expand on this, higher protein intake can increase satiety, palatability, compliance, energy, performance, etc. in some individuals and it can have the opposite effect in other individuals, regardless of total energy intake, but as energy intake becomes acutely hypocaloric, the probability of a better outcome with higher protein intake increases, especially on a standard diet as opposed to a specialized protocol such as VLCKD.




Please stop posting this utter crap.






General disclaimer: I have not watched the video posted in the OP and I'm just commenting on the relevant research that I'm aware on the topic of protein intake and hypertrophy.

how is it non sense

[WonderPug]

how is it non sense

You're claiming protein intake needs to be about double of what research indicates is the maximum amount of protein required to optimize muscle development and retention.

Such a claim is utter nonsense.

[cumminslifter]

Need? No. Can amounts of 1g or higher be useful at certain stages of dieting? Yes. I'll use 1g or higher when cutting as protein is muscle sparing, expensive for the body to use as energy, and keeps me satiated.

this^ idk why everyone i trying to always get away with the bare minimums

[Simmo0508]

I don't care for general rules of thumb like that. If everybody kept protein low, you'd have a hard enough time even trying to reach your overall calories each day. All you'd be consuming is high carb, high fat, low protein. In my case i'd be smashing like 1000g of carbs to even get in the ballpark of where i need to be (I do 5k-6k cals a day right now), with the rest coming from calories from fat grams and minimal intake from protein. It just wouldn't work. It's better to have an even spread of protein and carbs and fats, to comprise a daily total of calories. I think when people are talking lower amounts of protein, it's context is based off a MUCH smaller daily intake of calories.

I don't think it's cool to break down individual nutrition like that. Never did like it.

The internet and what people say is very different to what goes on in the real world and what others do. Most guys with more than decent physiques don't cap themselves off at a certain point and think "oh i've eaten too much protein today, have to limit all this!". As bodybuilders we need more than the normal amount, and that amount is up to you.

Looking back, I started off my training days doing about 200g protein a day i'd say (didn't weigh as meticulously as now) since I was lighter and didn't need as many calories each day and my appetite wasn't as great as it is now. Then as years go by, you get bigger, you get hungrier, portion sizes seem like nothing, so you increase. I do about 350-400g of protein daily which still isn't even that satiating for me. 2 of those meals are shakes, so there's 100g gone. Then I have 4 food meals which are like at least 60g protein each, so it adds up quick.

So there's no right or wrong, you just have to do you and not listen to anybody else.

[WonderPug]

I don't care for general rules of thumb like that. If everybody kept protein low, you'd have a hard enough time even trying to reach your overall calories each day. All you'd be consuming is high carb, high fat, low protein. In my case i'd be smashing like 1000g of carbs to even get in the ballpark of where i need to be (I do 5k-6k cals a day right now), with the rest coming from calories from fat grams.

I don't think it's cool to break down individual nutrition like that. Never did like it.

The internet and what people say is very different to what goes on in the real world and what others do. Most guys with more than decent physiques don't cap themselves off at a certain point and think "oh i've eaten too much protein today, have to limit all this!". As bodybuilders we need more than the normal amount, and that amount is up to you.

Looking back, I started off my training days doing about 200g protein a day i'd say (didn't weigh as meticulously as now) since I was lighter and didn't need as many calories each day and my appetite wasn't as great as it is now. Then as years go by, you get bigger, you get hungrier, portion sizes seem like nothing, so you increase. I do about 350-400g of protein daily which still isn't even that satiating for me. 2 of those meals are shakes, so there's 100g gone. Then I have 4 food meals which are like at least 60g protein each, so it adds up quick.

So there's no right or wrong, you just have to do you and not listen to anybody else.

FYI: Tarnopolsky et al. found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.

[Simmo0508]

FYI: Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.

We're not trying to maintain mass, we're trying to grow new mass. Develop. Surplus.

Nor is anyone Tarnopolsky, apart from Tarnopolsky himself. Ronnie is not the same as Jay. So on and so forth. Refer to my last line of last post.

"Sufficient" is not a word that bodybuilders exactly strive to use. Optimal and the search for perfection is more the attitude.

[WonderPug]

We're not trying to maintain mass, we're trying to grow new mass. Develop. Surplus.

Protein requirements are lower when in a hypercaloric state (to gain mass). It is when cutting that protein requirements are higher. Basic physiology.

Nor is anyone Tarnopolsky, apart from Tarnopolsky himself. Refer to my last line of last post.

FYI: Peer-reviewed journal published studies are performed on numerous test subjects. It's not the researcher testing protein intake on himself.

[HealingHands8]

this^ idk why everyone i trying to always get away with the bare minimums

Protein is expensive. I personally notice no difference in any of the above mentioned factors with lower or higher protein, so tend to keep protein at 0.8g when bulking & 1g when cutting.

[Simmo0508]

Protein requirements are lower when in a hypercaloric state (to gain mass).



FYI: Peer-reviewed journal published studies are performed on numerous test subjects. It's not the researcher testing protein intake on himself.

But it's still not YOU, so it's ultimately irrelevant. The biggest thing in bodybuilding is keeping it personal and individual, and not relying on anybody else for determining what you should do. It's the same for training. You'll never have 2 guys using the same program or doing the same workout. Everyone responds differently.

Guidelines and tips, cool, but really you're the only one who knows what's best for your growth. If you're not liking it, you're going to change it up anyway.

[HealingHands8]

FYI: Peer-reviewed journal published studies are performed on numerous test subjects. It's not the researcher testing protein intake on himself.

I sincerely hope that isn't what he was implying.

[Simmo0508]

Protein requirements are lower when in a hypercaloric state (to gain mass). It is when cutting that protein requirements are higher. Basic physiology.

This is true, but you still don't HAVE to be scared of upping protein. Requirements are bare minimums. You CAN exceed that and be perfectly fine. Whether someone wants to up carbs or up their protein is their perogative. Not everyone likes going crazy high carb for example, even during bulks.

[WonderPug]

But it's still not YOU, so it's ultimately irrelevant.

Peer-reviewed journal published research is not "irrelevant" and nor is a basic understanding of physiology.

That said, I think the problem is that you lack even a rudimentary understanding of the relevant research, let alone what scientific research means, and you lack even the most basic understanding of physiology. As a result, you can't discern correlation with causation and you're engaging in dietary habits that can be counterproductive and even pose serious long-term health risks.

Requirements are bare minimums.

Incorrect.

They're the highest level of protein intake shown to increase hypertrophy (that means gaining muscle mass).

[Simmo0508]

Ok then, each their own I come from a different background and experience. You seem to just care about research and papers and studies etc. whereas I tend to apply those things and then tweak and test chit out to see how well things actually do work individually. I'm not dismissing claims, however I don't think it's fair to solely rely on them without having your own individual opinion on these things and without testing them consistently to give it enough of a chance. You don't have to be a bookworm, you can form your own thoughts and have your own spine when it comes to bodybuilding. It's an individual sport with individual needs, you ultimately just rely on one person - you. Not anything or anybody else. You create your own way and your own fate in life.

That's the beauty of life in general. If you don't like something or it's not right for you, change it up and see how that goes. Bodybuilding is a lifetime experiment in a way.

[owaz]

I don't care for general rules of thumb like that. If everybody kept protein low, you'd have a hard enough time even trying to reach your overall calories each day. All you'd be consuming is high carb, high fat, low protein. In my case i'd be smashing like 1000g of carbs to even get in the ballpark of where i need to be (I do 5k-6k cals a day right now), with the rest coming from calories from fat grams and minimal intake from protein. It just wouldn't work. It's better to have an even spread of protein and carbs and fats, to comprise a daily total of calories. I think when people are talking lower amounts of protein, it's context is based off a MUCH smaller daily intake of calories.

I don't think it's cool to break down individual nutrition like that. Never did like it.

The internet and what people say is very different to what goes on in the real world and what others do. Most guys with more than decent physiques don't cap themselves off at a certain point and think "oh i've eaten too much protein today, have to limit all this!". As bodybuilders we need more than the normal amount, and that amount is up to you.

Looking back, I started off my training days doing about 200g protein a day i'd say (didn't weigh as meticulously as now) since I was lighter and didn't need as many calories each day and my appetite wasn't as great as it is now. Then as years go by, you get bigger, you get hungrier, portion sizes seem like nothing, so you increase. I do about 350-400g of protein daily which still isn't even that satiating for me. 2 of those meals are shakes, so there's 100g gone. Then I have 4 food meals which are like at least 60g protein each, so it adds up quick.

So there's no right or wrong, you just have to do you and not listen to anybody else.

Well you eat 5,000-6000 calories a day. For me if I ate that much I'd be as big as a whale in no time(I eat 2800 calories for maintaining at the moment. My intended goal for this post was to figure out what is accurate amount of protein we need and if people generally agree with the research.

Mostly the claims in the bodybuilding world on protein is much higher probably because people are trying to sell more product. If you know what I mean.

[Simmo0508]

My intended goal for this post was to figure out what is accurate amount of protein we need

There is none. It differs for every single person out there. That's the thing lol

There's no "we".

[owaz]

Peer-reviewed journal published research is not "irrelevant" and nor is a basic understanding of physiology.

That said, I think the problem is that you lack even a rudimentary understanding of the relevant research, let alone what scientific research means, and you lack even the most basic understanding of physiology. As a result, you can't discern correlation with causation and you're engaging in dietary habits that can be counterproductive and even pose serious long-term health risks.



Incorrect.

They're the highest level of protein intake shown to increase hypertrophy (that means gaining muscle mass).

I agree, I don't know how this guy has such a huge rep power on this forum. lol

Matter isn't matter according to him.