Calling vegan R/P'ers for discussion

[JonathanRhimes]

I have been doing a bit of reading about vegetarian and vegan dieting and I wanted to ask folks on the forum about their thoughts on the subject and stir up some discussion.

Personally I have occasional ethical qualms about eating animals, especially mammals. I saw somebody in some thread post the photo of dogs being boiled alive in a vat in China, and it totally totally sickened me. I have read too that pigs are on a similar mental footing as dogs, but as a lifelong dog lover that type of abuse really hit home.

With that said, how do vegans reconcile pets with the meat industry? I will gladly keep killing chickens to buy food for my dogs, but again I am leaning more toward wanting to preserve my fellow mammals.

Apologies for rambling disjointed OP. Seeking thoughts and feedback.

[JonathanRhimes]

Photo of dog boiling at top of this page, graphic:
http://www.change.org/petitions/chin...ing-dogs-alive

[TheStender]

You can find vegetarian dog food.

You could watch the documentary "Forks over Knives." If you want to be hit with more graphic images (if you're into that thing) watch "Earthlings."

[JonathanRhimes]

You can find vegetarian dog food.

You could watch the documentary "Forks over Knives." If you want to be hit with more graphic images (if you're into that thing) watch "Earthlings."

I wouldn't say I'm into it, but the dog photo did have a really profound emotional effect on me. Not like gestation crate photos and other stuff I've seen.

What do vegan lifters work with? Coconut milk and quinoa?

[BEATINGU]

The same thing happened to be after seeing PaulG post that dog picture. There is nothing that bothers me more than animal abuse. I'm not sure I have the self-control though to become a vegan. I eat way too much meat.

Part of me was praying that picture with the dogs being boiled alive was photo-shopped or something, I literally lost sleep over it last night.

[JonathanRhimes]

The same thing happened to be after seeing PaulG post that dog picture. There is nothing that bothers me more than animal abuse. I'm not sure I have the self-control though to become a vegan. I eat way too much meat.

Part of me was praying that picture with the dogs being boiled alive was photo-shopped or something, I literally lost sleep over it last night.

Same here about meat consumption: I am all about med-rare steak with cream sauces wrapped in bacon etc. But we clearly do lack at least some perspective about the slaughterhouse to the plate, even if slaughter is more humane in the States.

At the moment I am considering what aquatic critters might be more ethical to eat; I'm not convinced that a mollusk feels much more distress at harvesting time than a stalk of wheat.

[Lakersbake]

We didnt get to the top of the food chain eating veggies only.

[JonathanRhimes]

We didnt get to the top of the food chain eating veggies only.

Agreed, but we do seem to have eaten all the mammoths

I think eventually we can have our cake and eat it to (have our pets and eat them too?) by growing animal tissue in incubating vats. This would very neatly sidestep ethical concerns as soon as those troublesome nervous systems are removed from the picture.

[Posthardcore]

This is the sort of thing that's very hard to debate, because everyone works with different moral axioms. One could argue that it's natural for us to feel empathy for other species and that we have a moral obligation to do so.

But other people will argue that it's very natural to hold anthropocentric values as that's what got us this far evolutionary speaking.

Bottom line is if someone does not feel any remorse slaughtering animals to eat, then there's not much you can say to make him change his mind. The only thing that comes to my mind is the negative environmental repercussions.

[HumptyBrah]

Vegans: don't eat meat, take 14 different vitamins and supplements to make up for it

[HumptyBrah]

This is the sort of thing that's very hard to debate, because everyone works with different moral axioms. One could argue that it's natural for us to feel empathy for other species and that we have a moral obligation to do so.

But other people will argue that it's very natural to hold anthropocentric values as that's what got us this far evolutionary speaking.

Bottom line is if someone does not feel any remorse slaughtering animals to eat, then there's not much you can say to make him change his mind. The only things that comes to my mind is the negative environmental repercussions.

We evolved to eat meat. See: canine teeth.

I feel no remorse for eating animals. I do my best to make sure the meat I buy was treated humanely though.

[Posthardcore]

We evolved to eat meat. See: canine teeth.

I love meat and don't give a chit really about killing animals for it don't get me wrong, but I believe that claim has been debunked. (the claim that we've evolved to eat meat because of our canine teeth.)

[brighamw]

We evolved to eat meat. See: canine teeth.

I feel no remorse for eating animals. I do my best to make sure the meat I buy was treated humanely though.

While I agree with your first two statements it always cracks me up when people talk about buying meat that was "treated humanely", dead is dead.

Just throw the **** on the bbq & enjoy

I'm only semi-serious BTW, but it's kind of like the humane death penalty argument, key word is death, lol

[HumptyBrah]

I love meat and don't give a chit really about killing animals for it don't get me wrong, but I believe that claim has been debunked. (the claim that we've evolved to eat meat because of our canine teeth.)

Meh. So be it then. It makes sense to me lol.

While I agree with your first two statements it always cracks me up when people talk about buying meat that was "treated humanely", dead is dead.

Just throw the **** on the bbq & enjoy

I'm only semi-serious BTW, but it's kind of like the humane death penalty argument, key word is death, lol

A quick and painless killing of an animal that lived its life on an open pasture > the live skinning and slow death of an animal that spent its life shoulder to shoulder with other animals in some pen being fed a mixture of corn and its own feces.

[TaxusBaccata]

We didnt get to the top of the food chain eating veggies only.

i always lol at these dumb comments

you are no where near the top of the food chain, a shark or a lion would snack on you

[Posthardcore]

Meh. So be it then. It makes sense to me lol.

Yeah, I don't know if we evolved to eat meat, but I'm pretty sure we did eat meat back in the days. The only difference is that we now have a greater range of feelings/emotions I guess? And that some people don't feel like they need to eat meat.

Well, I ain't gonna bulk on Quinoa and Spinach so yep. lulz, gotta make some gainz

[TaxusBaccata]

We evolved to eat meat. See: canine teeth.

i also enjoy this one

brb has 4 teeth out of the whole mouth of flat herbivorous teeth are slightly pointed, brb gonna use it to justify my claim to be a carnivore

[HumptyBrah]

i always lol at these dumb comments

you are no where near the top of the food chain, a shark or a lion would snack on you

A shark or lion would get its fcking face blown off. Humans are at the top of the food chain because we've developed the appropriate tools.

[HumptyBrah]

i also enjoy this one

brb has 4 teeth out of the whole mouth of flat herbivorous teeth are slightly pointed, brb gonna use it to justify my claim to be a carnivore

But who was omnivore?

[wings_unhinged]

My first experience with veganism was seeing footage of a calf's neck being stomped on for entertainment at a dairy farm in Ohio. Afterwards, my wife and I decided to watch "Earthlings" and we remained vegans for the next six months.

I don't know a lot about nutrition (compared to some), but I felt much better on a vegetarian/vegan diet. My hair was thicker, my nails grew stronger, and I felt more awake/alert in general. Although, I'm sure these benefits could be achieved through lowering your meat consumption as opposed to eliminating it.

I'm eating meat mostly out of convenience now. I'm also finding success in keto, which is made up of meat and dairy (some greens too).

[PaulG]

We evolved to eat meat. See: canine teeth.

This is easy to refute. We have the bacteria to break down meat, but, it's not the good kind of bacteria you want dominating your body. Primates are generally green, leafy and root eaters and do very well with this diet.

[HumptyBrah]

This is easy to refute. We have the bacteria to break down meat, but, it's not the good kind of bacteria you want dominating your body. Primates are generally green, leafy and root eaters and do very well with this diet.

lol at this argument. Does the animal mainly eat grass because biologically that's what it eats? Or because of convenience?

Also, how in the fcking fck are you 90% vegan? That's like being 90% virgin.

[Posthardcore]

This is easy to refute. We have the bacteria to break down meat, but, it's not the good kind of bacteria you want dominating your body. Primates are generally green, leafy and root eaters and do very well with this diet.

Lol at dat bro-science. Strong appeal to emotions too.

See, I don't think that kind of picture is the means by which people will be convinced to stop meat consumption.

Paleo has to be one of the worst myth around these days.

[HumptyBrah]

Lol at dat bro-science. Strong appeal to emotions too.

See, I don't think that kind of picture is the means by which people will be convinced to stop meat consumption.

Paleo has to be one of the worst myth around these days.

Many principles of paleo I think are good to adopt. No processed foods or added sugars, minimal grains and dairy, lean meats, healthy fats.

[PaulG]

lol at this argument. Does the animal mainly eat grass because biologically that's what it eats? Or because of convenience?

Also, how in the fcking fck are you 90% vegan? That's like being 90% virgin.

Animals are capable of digesting lots of things. It's a matter of efficiency of digestion; leafy food generally is more tuned to primates. Adding extra steps and resources to the digestion cycle is not an evolutionary advantage.

[ColdSteelToFace]

Isn't it proven human brains evolved due to eating meat?

[wings_unhinged]

Isn't it proven human brains evolved due to eating meat?

It's a supported hypothesis, though it has no bearing on whether it's ethical to continue eating it.

[WintryRaven]

It's a supported hypothesis, though it has no bearing on whether it's ethical to continue eating it.

Precisely this. Eating meat got us to where we are, yes, but we did so only because past circumstances forced us to - circumstances which don't exist anymore. Letting past circumstances dictate our current action is a poor cop-out for continuing to debauch in a lifestyle that arguably brings humankind, the environment, and the rest of sentient life more harm than good.

[TheJimmyRustler]

OP, I feel like I'm leaning more and more towards veganism out of concern for my health, not particularly out of concern for animals' well-being. I avoid buying Halal or cruelly farmed animal foods if and when I do buy some, but generally I only eat meat at night, and that's because it's what's cooked for dinner. I rarely have some form of animal products 2x a day more than twice a week, if even that. No whey, no eggs and bacon for breakfast daily. Feel happier, more energetic, and pitching tents most mornings now vs rarely doing that even just a few months ago.


I'd advise you look up John McDougall and nutritionfacts.org on Youtube for a whole range of evidence that dropping meat is healthy for you if you're interested. I'll list a few brief points:

- animal protein is linked to cancer; insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF 1) promotes cell growth, including tumors. IGF 1 is highest in meat-eaters and vegetarians; even if vegetarians omit flesh and just have milk and/or eggs, they're still likely getting a lot of animal protein, which leads to increased IGF-1, which is a one-stop-shop for cancer

- the countries with the highest dairy intake have a greater incidence of osteoporosis, hip fractures etc. It seems that the whole "drink your milk for strong bones!" selling point really is BS

- Western countries have more heart disease and cancer than poorer countries like those in South East Asia; the difference is the diet. In poorer countries people eat a more traditional diet centred around starch and vegetables with a little meat, whereas in the West we centre our diet around meat and dairy (breakfast is cereal with milk, lunch is a meat sandwich, dinner = meat + some starch and veg) As Asian countries get richer and start to eat like us, they start to feel like us; BMI increases, weight gain and obesity rise and so do heart disease and cancer rates

- all populations of long-lived, healthy, hearty people have eaten little meat. The "Blue Zones," as they're called, are such places; Okinawa and Sardinia. These people lived well into their 90s or beyond whilst staying physically and mentally fit, and eat barely any meat and little to no dairy. In comparison, countries where meat and dairy consumption is higher typically die sooner and have a worse quality of life, as it seems animal products cause degenerative problems.


In short, it does seem that more animal foods = more sickness and a shorter life. That's why I'm making a conscious effort to lower my meat intake drastically - it seems that around 10% of calories coming from animal foods daily allows people to still maintain great health. So if you're eating 2,000 calories daily, 200 can come from animal foods. 3,000 cals/day, 300, and so on.

We didnt get to the top of the food chain eating veggies only.

Actually the more I read and watch, the more it seems that we did.

Just consider how many times a tribe would have to hunt (remember, Paleo = pre-agriculture, so no domesticated animals, certainly not a large extent) to eat meat all day errday in large quantities. Think about how many animals would have to be hunted each year. And then to sustain a growing population. There simply wouldn't be enough food to go around for a large population, since hunting isn't always successful, and on that kind of level it would wipe out entire ecosystems.

Evidence is coming forward which shows that people have been eating plant foods for a long, long time and relied on them a lot. The whole "early man ate lots of meat" stems, if I remember rightly, from people finding early tribal cook-fires etc and finding animal bones there, and just concluding this means we chowed down on meat a lot...that's an incredibly stupid way to come to conclusions about the dietary habits of people from many thousands of years ago. Even Neanderthals have been found with starchy granules in their teeth, so it does seem that plant foods have been a part of hominid diets for many millenia.

[BromoSapien101]

Eating meat is absolutely justifiable from an evolution standpoint. Red meat packs more energy per lb. than any amount of greens. This is how we were able to evolve larger brains. It is no coincidence that the dumbest animals eat foliage while the most intelligent tend to eat meat.

Being a vegan based on the actions of a few cruel people is irrational. Actually being vegan in itself is an irrational act.