The Linguistic Miracle of the Qur'an

[uwootm8]

I feel the need to contribute something useful regarding Islam and will eventually be moving this out of a bodybuilding forum however will use this thread to keep everything in one place for now insha'allah. This is also a motivation for me to learn arabic quickly.

You may ask basic questions (e.g. "is the challenge subjective?" "what is the style of the Qur'an?") here. I am NOT an expert in arabic, nor am I an expert in linguistics, nor am I a student of Ijaz-ul-Qur'an, I'm just a guy putting information together. Most of the posts will be dedicated to linguistic properties of the Qur'an that make it overpowering, though I will have a bit on the objective challenge of the Qur'an.

[uwootm8]

EDIT: Seems the editing function is time sensitive. That won't work, will have to make cliffs of the thread later.

[A-GAME]

Table of contents

OP is not a *******

More to come

Stopped reading here. OP is always a *******. Have a nice day.

[ZioBot]

'OP is a *******' is more of a linguistic miracle imo. Not directed at OP, I just find it beautiful, most probably divine. Can anyone give us its Arabic translation?

[uwootm8]

What makes the Qur'an miraculous?

(under construction)

Consult the links below:

What is the Qur'anic miracle? The Qur'an's unique literary form and its relation to the Qur'anic challenge.
http://www.theinimitablequran.com/uniquelitform.pdf

How do we define a miracle?
http://www.theinimitablequran.com/intromiracles.pdf

How was the Qur'an received by non-Muslim arabs?
http://www.theinimitablequran.com/ae...creception.pdf

Attempts to copy the Qur'an - Did they work?
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/

Note that I am ALSO posting "cool" things about the Qur'an in this thread as well. This post is dedicated to the PROOF of Islam, the rest is just cool stuff for Muslims or perhaps even non-Muslims to appreciate

[uwootm8]

Palindrome #1

Verse three of Surah mudhatthir ("The cloaked one")

Translation: "Glorify your Lord"

Breaking it down:

و ر ب ك ف ك ب ر

Note that putting a waaw (و) at the start of the sentance is kind of like to capitalize it. So if you take the red text, you get a palindrome.

[MTFlapan]

some linguistic miracles of Hebrew.. כל ממזר מלך‎

[uwootm8]

The verse of the Throne

A commonly known verse of the Qur'an, called the "Ayatul Kursi". It consists of nine sentences.

God: there is no god but Him, the Ever Living, the Ever Watchful.

Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him.

All that is in the heavens and in the earth belongs to Him.

Who is there that can intercede with Him except by His leave?

He knows what is before them and what is behind them,

but they do not comprehend any of His knowledge except what He wills.

His throne extends over the heavens and the earth;

it does not weary Him to preserve them both.

He is the Most High, the Tremendous.

Now, if we take the first sentence and the last sentence: we see a similarity between them. Each of the two sentences mention 2 names of God: "the Ever Living" (hiyy') and "the Ever Watchful" (al-Qayyuum) in the first sentence, "the Most High" ('aliyy) and "the Tremendous" ('azeem) in the last.

The second part states that slumber nor sleep overtakes him. The second last part states that it does not tire God to preserve the heavens.

The third part says that He owns everything in the heavens and the earth, the third last says that His thrones extends over the heavens and the earth

The fourth sentence tells us that nobody can intercede between Him unless He allows it, and the fourth last says that nobody knows anything unless He allows them to know it.

That leaves us sentence 5, the middle. I'll let you figure it out:

"He knows what is before them and what is behind them,"

[boseador]

OP, explain to us how a palindrome and symmetry are considered miraculous or make the Quran miraculous.

There are many books that contain palindromes and symmetry and no one considers them miraculous.

Fail thread fails.

[uwootm8]

OP, explain to us how a palindrome and symmetry are considered miraculous or make the Quran miraculous.

There are many books that contain palindromes and symmetry and no one considers them miraculous.

Fail thread fails.

I never said any of these things I posted makes it miraculous, if you actually read my OP carefully I was going to post both things that make the Qur'an "overpowering" AND on the objective challenge of the Qur'an...

See pdf under "what makes the Qur'an miraculous" for the Qur'an challenge to the disbelievers

[boseador]

I never said any of these things I posted makes it miraculous, if you actually read my OP carefully I was going to post both things that make the Qur'an "overpowering" AND on the objective challenge of the Qur'an...

See pdf under "what makes the Qur'an miraculous" for the Qur'an challenge to the disbelievers

I already read that liar Hamza Tortoise BS.

Nothing miraculous brah.

[uwootm8]

I already read that liar Hamza Tortoise BS.
Nothing miraculous brah.

Come back when you have a logical retort. Mocking people's names and then making a random unbacked statement is not an argument.

[boseador]

Come back when you have a logical retort. Mocking people's names and then making a random unbacked statement is not an argument.

Burden of proof brah. You made the claim that the quran is miraculous.

Also, there are many videos on YouTube exposing Mr. Tortoise as a liar. Will post when I get home.

[uwootm8]

Burden of proof brah. You made the claim that the quran is miraculous.

I just posted the proof

Also, there are many videos on YouTube exposing Mr. Tortoise as a liar. Will post when I get home.

He's said some incorrect things regarding science in the Qur'an, however the linguistic argument he makes is sound AFAIK and is one that has been around for centuries (since the coming of the Qur'an)

[Spartan5364]

I just posted the proof



He's said some incorrect things regarding science in the Qur'an, however the linguistic argument he makes is sound AFAIK and is one that has been around for centuries (since the coming of the Qur'an)

a word being a palindrome is hardly proof...

[gachase21]

Are we not pure? "No sir!" Panama's moody Noriega brags. "It is garbage!" Irony dooms a man; a prisoner up to new era.

[uwootm8]

a word being a palindrome is hardly proof...

I never said it was. See post 5

[uwootm8]

Precision in names in the Qur'an.

So, we know that Makkah actually has two names (or rather, two pronunciations?):

1. Makkah, the common name for it
2. Bakkah, another way to say that name- b and m are interchangeable in some arabic dialects during the time of the Prophet.

Now, the city is mentioned by its name two times in the Qur'an- one in 3:96 and one in 48:24.

However, when you look at the verses:


Inna awwala baytin wudiAAa linnasilallathee bibakkata mubarakan wahudan lilAAalameen


Wahuwa allathee kaffa aydiyahumAAankum waaydiyakum AAanhum bibatni makkata min baAAdi anathfarakum AAalayhim wakana Allahubima taAAmaloona baseera


One verse uses "Bakkah" and the other uses "Makkah"! It seems so arbitrary! So why is there a difference in word usage?

Let's note something: Bakkah is related to the word Bakk and tabakkah which means crowding, or congestion or the like (source: http://ia600806.us.archive.org/8/ite...dictionary.pdf)

Now, let's revisit the verse that uses bakkah rather than makkah and the verse after it:

Indeed, the first House [of worship] established for mankind was that at Bakkah - blessed and a guidance for the worlds. In it are clear signs [such as] the standing place of Abraham. And whoever enters it shall be safe. And [due] to Allah from the people is a pilgrimage to the House - for whoever is able to find thereto a way. But whoever disbelieves - then indeed, Allah is free from need of the worlds.

So, it's talking about Hajj here, unlike verse 48:24- Bakkah is the perfect word to use here! What else happens during the time of Hajj except crowding?

[boseador]

I just posted the proof



He's said some incorrect things regarding science in the Qur'an, however the linguistic argument he makes is sound AFAIK and is one that has been around for centuries (since the coming of the Qur'an)

He said one thing in a video and then he denied having said such thing. It is posted in the ex-Muslim thread, the last post I think.

You did not post proof brah. Anyone can claim that their book is divine and miraculous. A claim does not constitute proof. Furthermore, the Quran states that unbelievers will attempt to create a chapter like one of the Quran and the unbelievers will give up and say it is impossible. This is not the case, there are many people that have met the challenge, even during the times of Mohammed.

Also, still waiting for you to prove to us how the Quran is miraculous.

[uwootm8]

He said one thing in a video and then he denied having said such thing. It is posted in the ex-Muslim thread, the last post I think.

You did not post proof brah. Anyone can claim that their book is divine and miraculous. A claim does not constitute proof. Furthermore, the Quran states that unbelievers will attempt to create a chapter like one of the Quran and the unbelievers will give up and say it is impossible. This is not the case, there are many people that have met the challenge, even during the times of Mohammed.

Also, still waiting for you to prove to us how the Quran is miraculous.

The explanation is in the first pdf... you can either argue it or continue to make statements as rebuttals...

[boseador]

The explanation is in the first pdf... you can either argue it or continue to make statements as rebuttals...

So you appeal to authority, this is how you prove that the Quran is miraculous. Hamza Tortoise say it, therefore the Quran is miraculous.

I already read his stuff. But I will give it another skim...

[lasher]

Uwootm8, where would you rank the linguistic miracle of the Qur'an as persuasive evidence for the truth of Islam? I mean on a sliding scale of how important you think it is in showing the truth of Islam. Top, very high, high, medium?

[uwootm8]

Uwootm8, where would you rank the linguistic miracle of the Qur'an as persuasive evidence for the truth of Islam? I mean on a sliding scale of how important you think it is in showing the truth of Islam. Top, very high, high, medium?

Very high, I would say that it is more important to convey than the "scientific" miracle because as you know science is in flux and the first problem we have ran into with the Qur'an and science is human evolution.

The problem is, how do you convey it in another language? An arab might listen to the Qur'an in the sixth century and be reduced to tears and we have hadiths of non-Muslim arabs doing exactly that, but it's meaningless in the ears of a non-arab.

So these linguistic subtleties, palindromes, etc are translated and shared rather than the recitation itself. These are subjective matters (whether you believe that a speech can have deliberate palindromes, chiastic structures etc) but at the very least they strengthen the faith of the non-arab speaking Muslim.

[Spartan5364]

Very high, I would say that it is more important to convey than the "scientific" miracle because as you know science is in flux and the first problem we have ran into with the Qur'an and science is human evolution.

The problem is, how do you convey it in another language? An arab might listen to the Qur'an in the sixth century and be reduced to tears and we have hadiths of non-Muslim arabs doing exactly that, but it's meaningless in the ears of a non-arab.

So these linguistic subtleties, palindromes, etc are translated and shared rather than the recitation itself. These are subjective matters (whether you believe that a speech can have deliberate palindromes, chiastic structures etc) but at the very least they strengthen the faith of the non-arab speaking Muslim.

do you speak arabic?
did you break down and cry when you read it/ heard it for the first time?
Did you think it was a miracle when you saw it that first time or only after a website said so?

[lasher]

Very high, I would say that it is more important to convey than the "scientific" miracle because as you know science is in flux and the first problem we have ran into with the Qur'an and science is human evolution.

The problem is, how do you convey it in another language? An arab might listen to the Qur'an in the sixth century and be reduced to tears and we have hadiths of non-Muslim arabs doing exactly that, but it's meaningless in the ears of a non-arab.

So these linguistic subtleties, palindromes, etc are translated and shared rather than the recitation itself. These are subjective matters (whether you believe that a speech can have deliberate palindromes, chiastic structures etc) but at the very least they strengthen the faith of the non-arab speaking Muslim.

So you do clearly acknowledge then (I think, correct me if i'm wrong) that the some of most powerful evidence for the truth of Islam is confined to only those who speak and read Arabic? I mean purely the linguistic miracle aspect. The compelling testimony of the supernatural nature of the linguistics used in the Qur'an. These are unavailable evidences to the vast majority of humankind, are they not?

[uwootm8]

do you speak arabic?

Learning

did you break down and cry when you read it/ heard it for the first time?

No because I didn't understand it, and I was a kid so I didn't care for these things. I do now and I also appreciate its qualities and I find it very stirring in meaning as well.

Did you think it was a miracle when you saw it that first time or only after a website said so?

It's a miracle that has to be explained to the non-arab, because it's something that interacts with the mind rather than the senses (eg eyesight).

----------------

The cool thing about these things I've posted so far is that the Prophet and his followers were not familiar with these things that we find in the Qur'an as is written down. All these things were found centuries after.

[boseador]

So you do clearly acknowledge then (I think, correct me if i'm wrong) that the some of most powerful evidence for the truth of Islam is confined to only those who speak and read Arabic? I mean purely the linguistic miracle aspect. The compelling testimony of the supernatural nature of the linguistics used in the Qur'an. These are unavailable evidences to the vast majority of humankind, are they not?

This. Only 20% of Muslims speak Arabic, and not even classical Arabic. So uwootm8 here wants us to believe that the creator of the universe sent his final revelation to mankind in a language like Arabic that only 20% speak and that it is miraculous linguistics. How does Allah pretend to convince the world to accept his booK?

[uwootm8]

So you do clearly acknowledge then (I think, correct me if i'm wrong) that the some of most powerful evidence for the truth of Islam is confined to only those who speak and read Arabic? I mean purely the linguistic miracle aspect. The compelling testimony of the supernatural nature of the linguistics used in the Qur'an. These are unavailable evidences to the vast majority of humankind, are they not?

Yes, and yes

However they can be explained and translated and made accessible to non-Muslims. Sure it is not as powerful but it works (as people convert in those divine speech seminars by Nouman Ali Khan), and guidance is not a function of proof anyway.

[lasher]

Yes, and yes

However they can be explained and translated and made accessible to non-Muslims. Sure it is not as powerful but it works (as people convert in those divine speech seminars by Nouman Ali Khan), and guidance is not a function of proof anyway.

Right, but once they are translated they lose that miraculous linguistic aspect, unless I'm understanding the miracle claim incorrectly. I guess what seems off to me is that, what you consider to be a very high truth claim for the miraculous nature of the Qur'an is not really available to the average person. Yes, I do understand that we can rely on the testimony of Arabic experts, but doesn't that still seems to be at odds with saying that the linguistic miracle of the Qur'an is compelling, since most people cannot have access to that miracle and therefor cannot really be directly compelled?

[boseador]

Very high, I would say that it is more important to convey than the "scientific" miracle because as you know science is in flux and the first problem we have ran into with the Qur'an and science is human evolution.

You are just a brainless sheep brah. Hamza had to put aside the scientific miracles because he knew they were all wrong. His excuse is that "science is always evolving and one day science will evolve and conform to the science in the Quran". This is called delusion and denial brah.

The problem is, how do you convey it in another language? An arab might listen to the Qur'an in the sixth century and be reduced to tears and we have hadiths of non-Muslim arabs doing exactly that, but it's meaningless in the ears of a non-arab.

Blame Allah.

The reason why they cried, if it is true, could be the threats and descriptions of hell and punishment in the Quran. The Quran is also a very emotional book, it plays with the human emotions. People cried to many books (Cicero), and songs, there is nothing special about the Quran.

So these linguistic subtleties, palindromes, etc are translated and shared rather than the recitation itself. These are subjective matters (whether you believe that a speech can have deliberate palindromes, chiastic structures etc) but at the very least they strengthen the faith of the non-arab speaking Muslim.

Projecting sophistry onto the Quran and extrapolation words to come up with fantastic rhetorical features can strengthen the faith of the gullible Muslims, true, but this is not enough to convince the world.