Frustrated with my results after 13 cycles of 5/3/1

[Renan]

After 13 cycles:

My bench and ohp max have gone up 22lbs each (242 to 264 and 141 to 163).
My squat has gone up 57lbs (286 to 343)
Meanwhile, I was getting really beat up doing high reps deadlifts in all dead days, and switched to Ed Coan's program for 2 cycles...and my deadlift has gone from 420 to 515 (95lbs increase)
So that leaves me with a beginning gym total of 948 leading to an improvement of to an 1122 gym total (mostly due to my huge increase in the deadlift though)

I did BBB for 6 months, and then the simplest strenght template for another 6 months. I feel that I have gotten very good with high reps performance in all lifts, but my actual maxes have gone up very little. To the more experienced lifters in the forum, at my beginner state of development were these results to be expected or am I being delusional for having expecting more?

I am preparing for my first meet, which will be a deadlift only meet in six months. Raw lifting is practically non-existant in brazil and you can see by my numbers I am not yet ready to start lifting in gear. Hoping to pull 550-570.

[kinggorilla]

i personally believe 5/3/1 is not heavy enough for the bench or oh press.
triples at 90% are a good rule of thumb for them adding 5lbs each week for 6 week blocks with 3 weeks of deload/high rep work rinse and repeat.

The Coan deadlift routine is a linear periodization cycle ending with peaking so that is going to reflect your true strength potential after all the 5/3/1ing.
u appear to have a deadlifters physique judging by the pic and being 6'3" 220, if that is the case then that lift will go up the quickest for you.

if u do some sort of squat peaking program u will see a massive increase on that which will show what 5/3/1 gave u.

i hope that helps mate.

[Renan]

Thanks for the reply mate, that was actually very helpful

Yes, I sometimes get the feeling I am not getting the most out of my program. This bench press tip you gave me, to do triples at 90% in 6 week waves, is that for a frequency of once a week? Is the same thing advisable for the OHP??

I thought of doing a peaking program for squatting, just to see where I was at. But with numbers so low, I got discouraged and thought it would be foolish.

Everybody tells me that I have a deadlifters physique...since my hands go almost to my knees.

[baxtej44]

squat and deadlift increases aren't too bad IMO.


13 cycles? so you mean 52 weeks? a whole year? i would be kinda upset if i only put 22 pounds on my bench in a year TBH. i mean you can't argue progress, but that seems a little low IMO.

what does your other accessory work look like? give us a list of all your exercises and rep ranges for all of the days (bench, squat, OHP, deadlift)

[kinggorilla]

Thanks for the reply mate, that was actually very helpful

Yes, I sometimes get the feeling I am not getting the most out of my program. This bench press tip you gave me, to do triples at 90% in 6 week waves, is that for a frequency of once a week? Is the same thing advisable for the OHP??

I thought of doing a peaking program for squatting, just to see where I was at. But with numbers so low, I got discouraged and thought it would be foolish.

Everybody tells me that I have a deadlifters physique...since my hands go almost to my knees.

heres an example.day 1 bench 2-6 sets of 3 @90% add 5lbs each week for 6 weeks then test new 1rm on the seventh take 3 weeks for deload starting at 3 sets of 10 at 50-60% week 2 3x10 60-65% week 3 3x10 65-70% then start a new cycle with new 90%

accessory work:something for lockout 3-5 sets of 3-5 (board press, slingshot,lockouts)
dead bench 6 sets of 1 60 secs rest between sets
dips (ideadlly)or something for chest
closegrip floor press 3x5

prehab/rehab work.

day 2 squat 5/3/1 squat (every 9 months roughly do some type of peaking routine like smolov or something)
reverse band squat or anderson squat or heavy box squats 3-5x3
front squats 3x3 1x10 treat this kinda like 5/3/1 but heavy like 3x3 @225 week 1 230 week 2 235 week 3 then deload then next cycle start at either 230 or 235.
then whatever accessory u want ham curls,glute hams ect.

day 3 off or some type of cardio

day 4 oh press same as bench
then either z press or overhead lockouts 6x1
skullcrushers 3x6
then more shoulder work laterals and stuff

day 5 deadlifts 5/3/1 every 9 months or so do a peaking program and see your new max (not at the same time as the squat)
alternate weekly between lockout work and defecits 3-4x3
rows,pullups etc.biceps if u do that i would.

day 6 off
day 7 repeat instead of taking to days off.so 2 days on 1 off.
i would also do something for back like rows and pullups everyday u train.

[MHohon]

I agree with the question Baxtej44 made. The accessory work is big in the 5/3/1 program and having that list of exercises and reps will help a lot in identifying some possible issues. I did 5/3/1 for several cycles and I just didn't like the results. I went to a pyramid for the three core lifts and did five accessory exercises per core day. With that all said I did it for how I was feeling and I am not criticizing on the great program 5/3/1.

[308smk]

Need higher volume and frequency. 5/3/1 isn't enough.

[atgorgohome]

Geneswests version of 5/3/1 nets amazing results. High volume and frequency, no deloads - well worth a read if you're interested: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...5584083&page=1

[DreEveryDay]

Have you put on any weight in the past year? I ran 531 for 3 months in between my first and second meet. My bench went up 10lbs, but my squat went up 70lbs and my DL went up 50 (prob more, but i missed my third attempt and i haven't tried to PR again). I put on 10lbs during that time.

I'm running it again but i'm going to give it 5 months this time before my next meet. I'm switching OHP to an accessory lift and having 2 bench days instead. Hopefully it works again.

[wallydubois]

I'd go with bodybuilding (call it hypertrophy training if you wish) to build a bigger base. 8-10 reps per set with 60-70% of max on a variety of powerlift lookalike exercises and more volume. If nothing else, it will give you a relief from the structured grind. That alone will allow you to progress once you get back to a power cycle.

[kmc06005]

Have you looked into the 3/5/1 version for powerlifting? It's outlined in Beyond 5/3/1...

[Renan]

squat and deadlift increases aren't too bad IMO.


13 cycles? so you mean 52 weeks? a whole year? i would be kinda upset if i only put 22 pounds on my bench in a year TBH. i mean you can't argue progress, but that seems a little low IMO.

what does your other accessory work look like? give us a list of all your exercises and rep ranges for all of the days (bench, squat, OHP, deadlift)

Yep, 13 cycles = one whole year. I see what you mean. I also think little progress is better than no progress at all. But 22lbs looks like a good year's progress for someone going something like 405 to 427...I started out at 108kg man, I aint gonna like, that is pretty damn disapointing.

I started with BBB template for the first six cycles...so all acessories lifts were done 5x10. Saw great improvement in muscle size. For bench press, I did incline dumbell press...for OHP i did standing dumbbel military press...for squats I did RDLs and for deadlifts I did squats....

For the next cycles, I used the simplest strenght template...which is the main lift done at lower intensities and rep ranges...the last three cycles I did first set last...which is the first set of the day done over again, kinda like in a pyramid scheme.

I also would like to point out I stalled in the OHP in the 9th cycle...I never stalled in the other lifts....

heres an example.day 1 bench 2-6 sets of 3 @90% add 5lbs each week for 6 weeks then test new 1rm on the seventh take 3 weeks for deload starting at 3 sets of 10 at 50-60% week 2 3x10 60-65% week 3 3x10 65-70% then start a new cycle with new 90%

accessory work:something for lockout 3-5 sets of 3-5 (board press, slingshot,lockouts)
dead bench 6 sets of 1 60 secs rest between sets
dips (ideadlly)or something for chest
closegrip floor press 3x5

prehab/rehab work.

day 2 squat 5/3/1 squat (every 9 months roughly do some type of peaking routine like smolov or something)
reverse band squat or anderson squat or heavy box squats 3-5x3
front squats 3x3 1x10 treat this kinda like 5/3/1 but heavy like 3x3 @225 week 1 230 week 2 235 week 3 then deload then next cycle start at either 230 or 235.
then whatever accessory u want ham curls,glute hams ect.

day 3 off or some type of cardio

day 4 oh press same as bench
then either z press or overhead lockouts 6x1
skullcrushers 3x6
then more shoulder work laterals and stuff

day 5 deadlifts 5/3/1 every 9 months or so do a peaking program and see your new max (not at the same time as the squat)
alternate weekly between lockout work and defecits 3-4x3
rows,pullups etc.biceps if u do that i would.

day 6 off
day 7 repeat instead of taking to days off.so 2 days on 1 off.
i would also do something for back like rows and pullups everyday u train.

Hey man, I would like to thank you for putting in the time and typing all that out and explaining this routine to me. It looks like a really sound routine and I will really consider doing it since it really looks like it could work. I plan on starting a little lighter though, like 85%, since I can't do 2-6 sets at my 90% yet.

I agree with the question Baxtej44 made. The accessory work is big in the 5/3/1 program and having that list of exercises and reps will help a lot in identifying some possible issues. I did 5/3/1 for several cycles and I just didn't like the results. I went to a pyramid for the three core lifts and did five accessory exercises per core day. With that all said I did it for how I was feeling and I am not criticizing on the great program 5/3/1.

Thanks for replying. I gave the acessory info on Baxtej44's reply

Need higher volume and frequency. 5/3/1 isn't enough.

Any experiences with it? Could you elaborate a bit more if possible?

Geneswests version of 5/3/1 nets amazing results. High volume and frequency, no deloads - well worth a read if you're interested: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...5584083&page=1

Will look into it...thanks!

Have you put on any weight in the past year? I ran 531 for 3 months in between my first and second meet. My bench went up 10lbs, but my squat went up 70lbs and my DL went up 50 (prob more, but i missed my third attempt and i haven't tried to PR again). I put on 10lbs during that time.

I'm running it again but i'm going to give it 5 months this time before my next meet. I'm switching OHP to an accessory lift and having 2 bench days instead. Hopefully it works again.

Those were great gains and I wish you good luck on your next run for the meet. I started out with about 92kg...during my 6 months with BBB, i shot up to 100kg with what I considered to be mostly muscle mass because I looked much stronger and had no increase in abdominal circunference. So an 8kg gain. The past months I went through some financinal trouble and lost a few pounds, nothing major though...I am sitting at 97kg now.

I'd go with bodybuilding (call it hypertrophy training if you wish) to build a bigger base. 8-10 reps per set with 60-70% of max on a variety of powerlift lookalike exercises and more volume. If nothing else, it will give you a relief from the structured grind. That alone will allow you to progress once you get back to a power cycle.

Thanks for the input man. I really have no interest in a bodybuilding style of training though. I have no doubt it could work, since the strongest guys are my gym happen to be experienced bodybuilders..but it doesnt really appeal to me. It is something I consider to do when I want to gain a lot of weight to go up weight classes.

Have you looked into the 3/5/1 version for powerlifting? It's outlined in Beyond 5/3/1...

Thanks for the input man. I looked at it, and I sincerely don't think it would change much from the original template, at least in regards to my progress.

[Big Sexy J]

5/3/1 for bench press as written sucks...not enough volume. I think in order to make 5/3/1 work for all lifts (after a certain point aka not being a total beginner), you have to figure out your body and make certain adjustments to the program. Easier said than done though

[Renan]

5/3/1 for bench press as written sucks...not enough volume. I think in order to make 5/3/1 work for all lifts (after a certain point aka not being a total beginner), you have to figure out your body and make certain adjustments to the program. Easier said than done though

Even though my lifts suck, I don't consider myself a total beginer by what most powerlifter authors regard as beginner and intermediate (the whole idea of stages of mastery being about not how much you lift, but how you can recover from your workout periodization). I stalled in SS like four times before going into 531, and stayed on it a whole year without missing a single workout.

During this time, I felt that my best training days was the one with the lower reps, and I learned that I really liked working in the lower rep ranges. I can concentrate more. Any sugestions?

Also, I will put a video of me bench pressing tomorrow and ask you guys to kindly help me with a form check.

[KidAlchemy]

There are ways to make volume + intensity with 531. 3 things I'm doing now are Simplest strenght, Joker Sets and First Set Last

Simplest Strenght is an assistance exercise template that has some higher volume. I'm using it for squat and bench because I don't have time for BBB. I do these kinds of squats on deadlift day and bench on OHP Day.
Week 1: 50% x 10, 60% x 10, 70% x 10
Week 2: 60% x 8, 70% x 8, 80% x 6
Week 3: 65% x 5, 75% x 5, 85% x 5
(Week 4: Deload)

Then the Joker Sets are for main lift for that day. So after AMRAP set (which you HAVE to do) you increase the weight by 5-10% and try to do the required reps. (week 1 5's, week 2 3's, week 3 1's)
So it would be like this for a 100kg bench training: 75kg x 5, 85kg x 3, 95kg x 1+, 100kg x 1, 105kg x 1 and so on untill you can't get the rep.

First Set Last is done after AMRAP or Joker Sets also. You just back off to the first work set of the day and perform an AMRAP or do anything 3-5 sets of 5-10 reps.