Just have to f*cking lol at guys who have to convince themselves every night..

[Kuzon]

You guys think any previous sex with anyone who isn't you involves gang bangs, facials, degradation etc. All that implies is that that's how YOU treat women.

no, it doesn't imply that. lmao

>female logic


go back to being gang banged u cum dumpster

[Tiffany Wantsmore]

no, it doesn't imply that. lmao

>female logic


go back to being gang banged u cum dumpster

You proved my point with this post, well done.

[Kuzon]

You proved my point with this post, well done.

lol it was just a joke, way to get emotional by butthurt comment in my user cp. rofl.

[mydawgs]

I never claimed that lack of self control equates to sex drive. I claimed that sexual promiscuity and partner count and a desire for sex in general is directly proportional to one's sex drive. Duh. You want me to substantiate elementary principles of human biology? What's next, are you going to ask me to prove the existence of gravity? The hell's the matter with you? Wake up. Google and wikipedia are there for you if you need a quick refresher course on human sexual biology 101.

And I disagree with you, a married or committed man can have comparable sex drives, where you and I part ways is in the essence of "indiscriminate" partners there is where your "biology" arguments falls apart and cannot be substantiated. And to be clear...I have a high sex drive therefore I am promiscuous.....data would be helpful, a study or two. I know men that have high sex drives and masturbate it away...they are not running around nailing every woman they can get, is my point....why they have self control. Yes we have evolved from the stone age where intelligence is foundational in our behavior, but for the weak minded.

No I understand gravity I have two degrees in physics. I also understand sexual behavior...is there such a thing as sexual biology? Or is there fundamentals of biology associated with sexual behavior.....you do not appear to know the difference and still make claims you cannot tie to actual facts, opinions you are doing well with.

You continue to get cause and effect mixed up, thus explaining your confusion and your asinine requests for "substantiation". Let's try this one more time:

Sex drive is NOT driven by promiscuity. That is backwards.
Promiscuity IS driven by sex drive.
Sex drive is the CAUSE, promiscuity is the RESULT.

I have a high sex drive, THEREFORE I am sexually promiscuous.

Have you got it yet? Or do you need me to repeat it 3 more times?

Fair, but I will continue to state that sex drive can cause someone to be promiscuous OR a very active lover in their monogamous relationships. Promiscuity is a symptom of lack of self control ie the indiscriminate partners. This is where you and I are 180 degrees out of phase.

Compare the divorce and illegitimacy rates before feminism vs after.

Kthxbye.

Lets not because if you cannot understand simple human behaviors that are required for a successful marriage...which you have shown no evidence that you do, is a matter of fact you have self proclaimed you vehemently do not...ie you are a "playa", then it is logical you cannot conceptualize the elements that make it fail. "kthxbye"....is this a huge element of your ability to discuss things as an adult?

"We compete in dog sports, and you can always tell the dominance handlers, their dogs quit on them or bite them out of a sense of frustration, the handlers that establish a high quality bond that inspires their animals out perform the dominance handlers EVERY time."

Both human females and dogs require a master. Like the dog, the human female is subordinate to her male owner in any functional relationship.

There you are....you are not even relationship material.....you do understand the status quo of slavery in America, right? Sir you do not need a wife you need a hooker service, where you can be the "master" all day long and twice on sunday...all will be happy and it will not cost you half your "****", when one of those subordinate females makes you say "I do" and then drags your a** in front of a judge, who will make you understand the meaning of control. Unfairly but highly likely.

"A woman that requires leverage to control neither loves or trusts you, and the day that leverage no longer is effective is the day that woman will cheat or leave......see how that works, but still I wait for all your success of putting your boot on the backs of the women that never leave you because they LIKE that!"

Wimmin change their minds with the wind. One minute she's in love with her caring and devoted husband, the next minute she's divorcing him. 3/4 of all divorces are initiated by females. Good luck entrusting the stability of your marriage to the passing whims and fleeting emotions of a scatter-brained female.

Please an accounting of any success you have with ANY LTR........you are a very angry dude and that is why you very well may fail at relationships. But again evidence to the contrary would be helpful here, you provide none. But if it is not logical to you that people do not like to be treated like they are not worth anything you have larger issues than women. I feel bad for you because some woman really broke your heart...very sorry for that.

"Hey my brothers were VietNam vets, you know what it was reported to happen to dominance leaders in the field? Ever here the term 'frag'...."

Every military officer training academy in the world emphasizes that CO's should maintain their distance from subordinates and always engage them from a position of authority so as to maintain discipline and respect for the chain of command. Doctors are taught the same thing in medical school with respect to their patients, as are others professionals in fields where natural hierarchies may be found. If you treat subordinates like equals you will destroy their respect for your authority and consequently your effectiveness as a team. As I mentioned, this gets drilled into the heads of every officer cadet, but according to you, pretty much every military since the days of Sparta has had it all wrong.

And what you refuse to hear is when people are treated unfairly, ie "dominated" instead of "being led", when an opportunity occurs, an equalizing event, that dominated party will strike back...it is human nature, it is animal behavior.....what is more equalizing than a jungle where the enemy is using all kinds of horrific methods to terminate you as the enemy.....and everyone is behind the "dominated" instead of the "dominator"......kind of like that leader shouting, hey lets take that hill, and as he runs forward, his team stays put and the only thing that follows him is a grenade...well there you have it. The basic training goes out the window and that good ole human nature takes over.

This is what happens between two people where one is treated like an animal you own.....and the consequences can be very sad for a man these days, unfairly but true. You should never marry....get a fish and a hooker service and you can "be da man" and as long as you pay you should all be happy. I usually recommend dog ownership to men like you, but I would feel bad for a dog that cannot be seen as a creature that provides value to a fair and level headed handler...you indicate you cannot even be this.

We are off topic and you and I can agree to disagree....and I hope you are happy as you move forward in life....

[Kaybee93]

^^ Yet another Miscer who can't tell the difference between someone who's slept with her exes as part of a normal relationship and someone who has been "banged, dominated and downgraded by multiple douche bags".

You guys think any previous sex with anyone who isn't you involves gang bangs, facials, degradation etc. All that implies is that that's how YOU treat women and rather than making love with a girlfriend, you humiliate/denigrate/use and abuse a slut. Not all guys are like that.

I frankly don't care whether she slept with her exes or got gangbanged. It makes absolutely zero difference. The fact is, she has been ravaged multiple times by other cocks regardless of the circumstances of said vaginal poundings. I will not be getting shacked up with damaged goods, period. If I have to die a bachelor, so be it.

[shelifts1989]

The cure for sex addiction is a career in the sex industry, where you can earn great money to do what you love. Everything else is BS.

Terrible troll post.

Many of these men with sex addictions suffer from addiction to porn, cheating, hurt their marriages, lose their jobs.

It's not like a 60 year old man addicted to porn is going to get a job in porn.

[Tiffany Wantsmore]

I frankly don't care whether she slept with her exes or got gangbanged. It makes absolutely zero difference. The fact is, she has been ravaged multiple times by other cocks regardless of the circumstances of said vaginal poundings. I will not be getting shacked up with damaged goods, period. If I have to die a bachelor, so be it.

If you think that sex "damages" women, can we assume you don't participate in doing any of this "damage" yourself? Or are you as much of a hypocrite as the others?

[DizzySmalls]

It's pretty funny that people still use "Insecurity" term if some guy wants to wife up a virgin or doesn't wanna date sloots.

Insecure = anxious or afraid; not confident or certain

Pride = A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.


Guy gets serious with a chick who has been banged, dominated and downgraded by multiple douche bags. <- Insecure (Thinks he can't do better and settles down with low value woman)

Guy with pride would not do that.


I can honestly say that when i was a low self-esteem "beta", the last things i cared about was girls' past. I felt i had no chance with those "good girls".

This alpha/beta stuff is causing brain damage

[tential]

Don't recall mentioning that. I was actually a healthy sexual girl in my relationship (first time I ever had a crush on a boy in school I was 7/8 so I guess that can't be how an asexual person would feel). I'm single due to my business schedule, can't find him and picky overall. This is the main reason some of us remain single; it's that we put too much into finding those rare breeds and ignore what's too common. I've become strict over the years. The only disadvantage is it might take longer to find him when we're very specific but I'm sure he is there somewhere. I'll travel elsewhere if that's what it takes to find him at. But I do wish for a relationship at some point in the near future.

He's mistaken you for conception who said something to that effect. It's why while she does have some valid points sometimes, I take anything she says about sexuality with a grain of salt since she has admitted to having no desire to have sex with men and having an extremely low sex drive (thought that might have changed now that she's in a relationship (ithink?).

there's two sides to this coin. one if you care that much about your girl not being a virgin, you're obviously insecure about your own inadequacy stacked versus the past men, which is sure to push a female away from you. on the other hand when a girl has a very promiscuous past its more the after effect of a more deeply lined problem on the girls part, she very likely has issues about her own personality and self worth that have lead her to excess dick-seeking in order to subdue or validate those insecurities. There's a non-defined line, though im going to pick an arbitrary number and say that if your girl has had more than 20 dicks inside her and you want a relationship you're barking up the wrong tree.

Yup. I've met VERY FEW women who have been able to have a LOT of sex without seeing a deeply rooted issue with them. The chicks I hung out with the MOST (just about every day or at least 3 times a week) only ONE of them had no issue sleeping around. She slept around a lot, and just liked to phuck and get phucked up/party. Other chicks though, they had HUGE self esteem issues and used the sex to make themselves feel better. But then they'd feel worse because they'd be racking up partners like no other.
Do I consider a girl with high numbers to be not wife material? No, but the second she mentions a slooty past, I'm going to look harder for the red flags of self esteem issues and other deeply rooted problems. There are VERY few girls that resemble the chick I met who was very sexually open and ok with herself. Most resemble deep rooted issues and are in therapy, or are in and out of therapy consistently (which to me is even a LARGER issue because you know you need therapy, yet you keep exiting it).

^^ Yet another Miscer who can't tell the difference between someone who's slept with her exes as part of a normal relationship and someone who has been "banged, dominated and downgraded by multiple douche bags".

You guys think any previous sex with anyone who isn't you involves gang bangs, facials, degradation etc. All that implies is that that's how YOU treat women and rather than making love with a girlfriend, you humiliate/denigrate/use and abuse a slut. Not all guys are like that.

TBH, I don't see why people are so upset over sexual preferences in the first place. Yes, I understand society teaches us that gang bangs, facials, degradation, etc. are all SLOOTY behavior. There was a time when simply not being a virgin meant you were UNTOUCHABLE, even if it was from a previous marriage. Then there was a time where it was pretty much accepted that if you went on a date with a woman, you could then have sex with her. There was a time where a woman couldn't wear skirts/dresses that were too short, and a time where it was accepted to beat your woman with anything thinner than your thumb.
In short shiit changes. I don't know why guys think it's impossible to believe that there are women out there (more than we think) that actually enjoy "deviant" types of sexual behavior that men WANT to do to women, but consider any woman who also wants to participate in the behavior a slut. There have been surveys that show that many women have fantasized about having two men (or even more), and look at how well 50 shades of grey sold. You should be able to have sex with someone, and not hide the things that turn you on and make you feel good. Especially when BOTH people will enjoy the experience more. You're just holding yourselves back. Years from now, the stupid shiit that we're worrying about will become common place and perfectly acceptable.

[xbuttheaddx]

It's pretty funny that people still use "Insecurity" term if some guy wants to wife up a virgin or doesn't wanna date sloots.

Insecure = anxious or afraid; not confident or certain

Pride = A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.


Guy gets serious with a chick who has been banged, dominated and downgraded by multiple douche bags. <- Insecure (Thinks he can't do better and settles down with low value woman)

Guy with pride would not do that.


I can honestly say that when i was a low self-esteem "beta", the last things i cared about was girls' past. I felt i had no chance with those "good girls".

I agree 100%.

Back when I tried to conform to societies modern ideas that womens past's dont matter, is when I felt the most depressed, insecure, and self hatred. I would basicly force myself to date women with less than reputable morals just to feel like I was normal, in an attempt to try and not care about a girls past. I actually ended up getting cheated on every time, shocking right?

After the awkward finding yourself teen phase ended and I went to college I started to smarten up and realized that it's not me thats wrong for feeling this way, everyone has a right to how they feel and if a girls past bothers me because of her reckless disregard for her body than there is nothing I can do to change it and I just have to accept who I am. Some people care about past's, some people dont. Once I accepted the fact that I cant date a girl if her past bothered me I started having these crazy sensations of dignity, value, and self respect. I became more aware of everything in general and instead of simply trying to follow the crowd in every social aspect, I started thinking and acting for myself regardless of what others thought. It's been a couple years now and I wouldnt change a thing about the new me or how I feel about these sloots.

[GregariousWolf]

The cure for sex addiction is a career in the sex industry, where you can earn great money to do what you love. Everything else is BS.

They say find a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life.

[xbuttheaddx]

That's precisely what they want.



For someone who is thirty-four, you seem to have the mental capacity of a thirteen year old.

*doesnt agree with my beliefs, and correctly points out that I defend women who put out easily, therefore he must be dumb and I will stoop to the level that I claim him to be at by insulting him in a manner that a thirteen year old would do*

huehuehue

[FitnessBlue]

lol that both Conceptions and Tiffany prove my point. "We don't defend slootery"...brb trying to rationalize past sexual numbers...

Don't try to feed them logic boys, Tiffany and her weathered avi won't have it.

[xbuttheaddx]

lol that both Conceptions and Tiffany prove my point. "We don't defend slootery"...brb trying to rationalize past sexual numbers...

Don't try to feed them logic boys, Tiffany and her weathered avi won't have it.

I always thought the same thing. Judging from how used up she looks in her avi + how much she religiously defends sloots, one can safely assume she is a sloot herself.

Also, the thing about Tiffanys username is that she purposefully left out one word at the end when she joined this site. All Tiffany wants more of is c0wk.

[FitnessBlue]

I always thought the same thing. Judging from how used up she looks in her avi + how much she religiously defends sloots, one can safely assume she is a sloot herself.

Also, the thing about Tiffanys username is that she purposefully left out one word at the end when she joined this site. All Tiffany wants more of is c0wk.

lewlz...*bro fist*

not saying she has smoker lips and whore mascara...but....









































she does

[mydawgs]

lewlz...*bro fist*

not saying she has smoker lips and whore mascara...but....









































she does

Nothing wrong with wanting what you want......others feel differently. That is why Baskin Robbins offers 31 favors.

[FitnessBlue]

Nothing wrong with wanting what you want......others feel differently. That is why Baskin Robbins offers 31 favors.

I know I know, prob took that too far. Damn you and your calm posts!

[Al Shades]

Terrible troll post.

Many of these men with sex addictions suffer from addiction to porn, cheating, hurt their marriages, lose their jobs.

It's not like a 60 year old man addicted to porn is going to get a job in porn.

Find me a male pornstar who hates his job.

Go ahead. Just try it.

When you do that, you will understand the wisdom and truth in what I wrote.

Had these men seriously pursued careers in the sex industry, they wouldn't be caught up in failing marriages to begin with. They wouldn't be losing their jobs over sex because sex WOULD be their jobs. Get it? I'm guessing you don't/won't.

[Al Shades]

It's pretty funny that people still use "Insecurity" term if some guy wants to wife up a virgin or doesn't wanna date sloots.

Insecure = anxious or afraid; not confident or certain

What you will find is that a strong majority of the men who express a preference for sexually inexperienced females are, in fact, insecure in some way about their own sexuality or their bodies.

Are they insecure strictly BECAUSE of the aforesaid preference? No, not necessarily. It doesn't work like that. It's a correlation relationship, not a cause-and-effect one. The correlation is that sexually insecure men, regardless of where their insecurity came from, are drawn to sexually inexperienced females and turned off by sexually experienced females. This is a statistical fact, not an opinion. Not liking it doesn't affect its validity.

Naturally, the reverse is true as well: The most confident men around -- sexually and otherwise -- are usually the most openly sexual, and the least likely to give a damn about a girl's sexual history (or even to favor promiscuous females).

Think about the types of men who date strippers, pornstars and other sex workers. The stereotype of these guys is that they are almost universally "alpha male douchebags".

For example, consider the boyfriend of female pornstar Christy Mack:


He's an MMA fighter who had his name legally changed to "War Machine". He obviously has no problem dating a girl who represents the top echelon of female sexual promiscuity, a girl who has taken not dozens, but hundreds of dicks on camera, in every one of her orifices.

Do you think that dude has a lack of confidence, or an over-abundance of it?

Across the board, with very few exceptions, you will find that the most overtly masculine, dominant, and confident men either do not mind a female's sexual history at all or actually prefer so-called "sluts". Speaking from personal experience, when females know that they can discuss their sexual history openly with you and not be judged or slut shamed for it, it opens lots of doors and spreads lots of legs. This is a truth which every advanced player comes to know. That is the why the biggest players are men who the LEAST judgmental about girls' sexual experience.

Meanwhile the biggest male virgins and incels, the guys who aren't getting any, are very likely to be the guys who idolize virgins and express a high degree of disgust for sexually experienced females.

Once again, these are statistical facts, not opinions. You can debate the causes all you want, but you can't dispute that this phenomenon exists just as I've described it.

Your typical male pornstar is thought of as a "scumbag" or "douchebag" by the public precisely because he is the type of guy who doesn't give a damn how many dicks a girl has had, and doesn't put female virgins & prudes on a pedestal, unlike the rest of the male population. He is a threat to the "noble virgin" myth upon which the institution of marriage is based.

[xbuttheaddx]

What you will find is that a strong majority of the men who express a preference for sexually inexperienced females are, in fact, insecure in some way about their own sexuality or their bodies.

Are they insecure strictly BECAUSE of the aforesaid preference? No, not necessarily. It doesn't work like that. It's a correlation relationship, not a cause-and-effect one. The correlation is that sexually insecure men, regardless of where their insecurity came from, are drawn to sexually inexperienced females and turned off by sexually experienced females. This is a statistical fact, not an opinion. Not liking it doesn't affect its validity.

Naturally, the reverse is true as well: The most confident men around -- sexually and otherwise -- are usually the most openly sexual, and the least likely to give a damn about a girl's sexual history (or even to favor promiscuous females).

Think about the types of men who date strippers, pornstars and other sex workers. The stereotype of these guys is that they are almost universally "alpha male douchebags".

For example, consider the boyfriend of female pornstar Christy Mack:


He's an MMA fighter who had his name legally changed to "War Machine". He obviously has no problem dating a girl who represents the top echelon of female sexual promiscuity, a girl who has taken not dozens, but hundreds of dicks on camera, in every one of her orifices.

Do you think that dude has a lack of confidence, or an over-abundance of it?

Across the board, with very few exceptions, you will find that the most overtly masculine, dominant, and confident men either do not mind a female's sexual history at all or actually prefer so-called "sluts". Speaking from personal experience, when females know that they can discuss their sexual history openly with you and not be judged or slut shamed for it, it opens lots of doors and spreads lots of legs. This is a truth which every advanced player comes to know. That is the why the biggest players are men who the LEAST judgmental about girls' sexual experience.

Meanwhile the biggest male virgins and incels, the guys who aren't getting any, are very likely to be the guys who idolize virgins and express a high degree of disgust for sexually experienced females.

Once again, these are statistical facts, not opinions. You can debate the causes all you want, but you can't dispute that this phenomenon exists just as I've described it.

Your typical male pornstar is thought of as a "scumbag" or "douchebag" by the public precisely because he is the type of guy who doesn't give a damn how many dicks a girl has had, and doesn't put female virgins & prudes on a pedestal, unlike the rest of the male population. He is a threat to the "noble virgin" myth upon which the institution of marriage is based.

This is very, very true. I actually use the whole "I dont care about a womens past, she can do whatever she wants with her body blah blah blah" line and let her be open with me about her sexual past because it really does help spread them legs. It works really well. However, most of us are perfectly content with not dating a pornstar..... so when it comes to finding a girl to settle down with I change my approach up.


Plus, isn't that kinda sloot logic in the first place?
*I'll f*** your brains out and do whatever you want, but in order to convince me to go through with it you have to sit here and listen to me talk about all the guys I boned already tee hee"

[mydawgs]

What you will find is that a strong majority of the men who express a preference for sexually inexperienced females are, in fact, insecure in some way about their own sexuality or their bodies.

Please define the bolded. And can you make this in a statistical sense, where the number of men in the study is defined, the criteria for measuring the "insecurity" are defined and the control group has been defined.

This is a statistical fact, not an opinion. Not liking it doesn't affect its validity.

Please provide the study or studies so we too can assess the validity of the study.

Across the board, with very few exceptions, you will find that the most overtly masculine, dominant, and confident men either do not mind a female's sexual history at all or actually prefer so-called "sluts".

Please state the source of this data, and define what "across the board" means.

Once again, these are statistical facts, not opinions.

Well yee haw, you just said the magic words to a scientist, will await data, methodology of study, and the obvious controls required to acquire acceptance in the general scientific community, iow ******** does not count.

[xbuttheaddx]

He works in porn? so really its just a matter of two promiscuious individuals who have the same values and not just some "alpha male" who has a thing for sloots. Kinda changes that other guys entire post.

Normal people watch porn.

Emotionally disturbed people who also happen to be blessed with good genetics make porn.


Edit: the guy who posted about how the mma fighter in the above post also works in porn deleted his comment I guess.

[shelifts1989]

Find me a male pornstar who hates his job.

Go ahead. Just try it.

When you do that, you will understand the wisdom and truth in what I wrote.

Had these men seriously pursued careers in the sex industry, they wouldn't be caught up in failing marriages to begin with. They wouldn't be losing their jobs over sex because sex WOULD be their jobs. Get it? I'm guessing you don't/won't.

I've talked to female pornstars and strippers who hate their jobs. Many were molested as children and act out the abuse, or hooked on drugs so they need the money.

Profession isn't the point, the point is sex addicts use sex as an escape just like gambling or shopping.

You're basically telling an alcoholic to become a professional wine taster. Or a bartender.

Your approach is not healthy.

I'll allow the amazing MyDawgs to continue her onslaught of you. Proceed.

[shelifts1989]

lewlz...*bro fist*

not saying she has smoker lips and whore mascara...but....









































she does

You sound like the class bully.

No wonder so few woman stay on this board, with guys cutting them down. You don't see females ripping on guys about their looks. That's just a Low blow.

And mascara is slooty?? WTF? Maybe fake eyelashes but mascara?? You really don't know makeup!

[xbuttheaddx]

Find me a male pornstar who hates his job.

I've talked to female pornstars and strippers who hate their jobs

You guys are talking about two different genders.

Of course women in porn were molested and lack a reputable father figure, and of course men in porn love busting nuts for a living.

[mydawgs]

You're basically telling an alcoholic to become a professional wine taster. Or a bartender.
.

Wow, I never thought of it in this way, great point!

I am sure you are as excited as I am to see the statistical analysis that will lay the ground work to conclude that men that prefer women with a more "pristine" sexual history are insecure about their bodies and/or their sexuality.

*pins and needles*

[xbuttheaddx]

No wonder so few woman stay on this board, with guys cutting them down.

Actually the misc welcomes women who arent retarded. The reason why so few females hang out around here is because many of them end up displaying the exact idiotic female logic that we discuss here frequently. As a result we insult and berate them until they leave. The good ones are more than welcome to stay.

If you've spent more than an afternoon in RH, you are more than aware of how Tiffany presents herself.

[shelifts1989]

You guys are talking about two different genders.

Of course women in porn were molested and lack a reputable father figure, and of course men in porn love busting nuts for a living.

Yes but to tell a male sex addict to go into porn is the same point as telling an alcoholic man to go into wine tasting.

It doesn't solve the underlying issue.

I've been to SLAA meetings, usually as the only female there. Many of these men are executives, married men who want to be faithful to their wives yet the constant stimulation from porn

You're not going to tell an executive and family man to do porn.

[mydawgs]

Actually the misc welcomes women who arent retarded. The reason why so few females hang out around here is because many of them end up displaying the exact idiotic female logic that we discuss here frequently. As a result we insult and berate them until they leave. The good ones are more than welcome to stay.

If you've spent more than an afternoon in RH, you are more than aware of how Tiffany presents herself.

Why is that kind of interaction considered an effective strategy - do you learn more by ripping to shreds someone that disagrees with you.....BTW we are all welcome to stay, this is a public forum.

[xbuttheaddx]

Yes but to tell a male sex addict to go into porn is the same point as telling an alcoholic man to go into wine tasting.

It doesn't solve the underlying issue.

But can *male* sex addiction be as dangerous as being an alcoholic? Having sex doesnt make you make an ass of yourself at a party and vomit in the host's home, or cause your driving skills to be hindered and kill innocent people as a result.


Also, maybe the male with sex addiction doesnt want the underlying issue solved? Having an issue or condition is only a bad thing if the person who has it is unhappy as a result of it.