.8/117 Free/Total Testosterone... How long at maintenance before it upregulates?

[unleashthelion]

Damn. My test had been creeping up to the bottom end of the healthy range and then it completely plummeted (which coincides with my stopping lifting -- chicken/egg situation, but I feel it was the precipitous drop that caused me to not want to lift - no matter how much I tried to make myself).

I know not everyone thought it was my best course of action, but I am in the middle of a reverse diet back to maintenance. While I can certainly see why it would've been beneficial to hop right back onto (a projected) maintenance, I felt it was important to gradually increase calories for the sake of smoothly transitioning (physiologically and psychologically).

I've seen it take others only a few weeks at maintenance and hope that will be the case for me, but I don't think there's were quite as low.

Once I get to maintenance, is there an advantage to a modest surplus right away to further expedite the hormonal upregulation or will being at maintenance suffice?

[jshpark]

It really depends on a lot of factors and no one knows. It might take you weeks or months to get back to "normal." You'll probably feel better when you start upping the calories but the more you eat and the more time away from a dieting phase, the better. It might be advantageous to eat some surplus calories b/c real maintenance is a moving target but I believe that time is an important factor if you don't want to put on a lot of body fat.

[tara19]

I would ask your DR for advice.

[unleashthelion]

I would ask your DR for advice.

He just asked me how frequently I'm bingeing, gave me a prescription for topical testosterone, and asked if I wanted a referral to a plastic surgeon :-/

I should find a sports doc.

Yeah, jsh, it's all about time. I figure I'll take testosterone tests every couple weeks while I up the calories and just continue upping them until my test stops going up; right now, I am in recovery mode -- I'm just going to do my best to get back to my normal.

[dmacdonal9]

Mine never did. I gave it about 9 months and went on TRT. Would that have happened anyway (at 38) if I hadn't been cutting, and so it was just coincidental? Dunno.

It seems to only take a couple weeks to rebound in the few studies I've found that looked at it.

[snorkelman]

OP, how many grams of dietary fat are you ingesting daily?

[unleashthelion]

OP, how many grams of dietary fat are you ingesting daily?

That's been a huge issue for me; I haven't had adequate dietary fat, with any regularity, in months. I reasoned that my test was fubar'd due to the deficit, anyways, so why worry about my fat intake (from a hormonal perspective).

dmac, thanks - man. That's the funny thing with me -- I don't have a true pretest, as my first testosterone test was done when I was in a large deficit for 4 months. Now, while one can reason that the first result could be attenuated due to the deficit, it may have been at the highest it had been at - as the effect of my having been so obese could've depressed my test even more than the deficit. Do you recall the studies saying anything about it coming back more quickly with a more significant surplus (i.e., could it take >2 weeks at maintenance, <2 weeks at a modest surplus, and even less time on a significant surplus?)? Do you have any citations?

[dmacdonal9]

Do you recall the studies saying anything about it coming back more quickly with a more significant surplus (i.e., could it take >2 weeks at maintenance, <2 weeks at a modest surplus, and even less time on a significant surplus?)? Do you have any citations?

There's a good one here: http://jap.physiology.org/content/88/5/1820.long

If you follow the references at the end there, there's a few more.

I don't know if a surplus would help it recover more quickly. I can't think of any mechanism that would do that.

[unleashthelion]

Thanks!

So, to see whether or not I understand the mechanistic explanation, is it the lack of a caloric deficit (and not that the increase in testosterone is directly proportional to the increase in calories) that allows testosterone to return to normal levels?

[lee__d]

sheeet I thought mine was low

[dmacdonal9]

Thanks!

So, to see whether or not I understand the mechanistic explanation, is it the lack of a caloric deficit (and not that the increase in testosterone is directly proportional to the increase in calories) that allows testosterone to return to normal levels?

I don't know if the mechanisms are really well understood, but from what I've read, one observed effect is through increased production of SHBG in response to chronically lower insulin levels (insulin inhibits SHBG production). That locks up free test, but I don't know if it does much in terms of total test production. Low dietary fat intake though inhibits total test production, killing it from the other end. So you've got two ways to lower your effective test levels on a cut.

So I suppose if you increase calories, you raise average insulin levels, and begin inhibiting SHBG. Raise fat intake and you may increase total test production.

I just wonder if a longer deeper cut risks establishing a "new normal" in that regulatory loop, leaving you with chronically lower test levels that don't upregulate as they should.

[jshpark]

There's a good one here: http://jap.physiology.org/content/88/5/1820.long

If you follow the references at the end there, there's a few more.

I don't know if a surplus would help it recover more quickly. I can't think of any mechanism that would do that.

The mechanism is increased energy intake and nutrition given to the cells

Nice, that study gives an example of just how adaptive hormone levels can be in regard to acute calorie restriction and stress, training, thermo-stress , and sleep deprivation (though it seems sleep deprivation has been shown to not be an important factor). This study used four phases of refeeds upwards of 4-5,000 kcals daily intake for a whole week followed by 7-10 days of energy restriction which varied depending on the groups (1k-1.2k in group 1 and 400kcal less in group 2) though there was a general trend of weight loss downward for both groups (moreso for group 1)

I like this quote

Testosterone is extraordinarily sensitive to psychological stress, with changes in either direction depending on how the stressor is perceived. Unlike the adrenal response, testosterone remains suppressed with chronic anxiety (11) and is acutely sensitive to energy deficit

which elucidates the fact that there are many more variables to consider when examining hormone levels.

All measurements had returned to normal within ∼1 mo (5 wk) after the end of Ranger training, with the exception of rebound changes in body fat and several other metabolic markers (Table3). In the 10 soldiers assessed, fat had increased by 40% above normal levels, and binding proteins (SHBG and TBG) were suppressed below baseline values in response to hypercaloric intakes. Data obtained in group 1suggest that hyper****ia peaks at ∼1 mo and that all parameters are normal by 6 mo posttraining (32).

If one looks at the data in table 3, the 10 soldiers actually gained ~11 kg 5 weeks after the training program lol.. and they ended up heavier then in the beginning of the program by about 2 kg though their hormonal profile seems more upregulated than in the beginning of the whole ordeal.

It isn't really fair to just assume that group 1 with the lower caloric deficit would just return to baseline after refeeding such as in group 2 (who also had hotdogs + snacks before one of their sampling).. I do doubt and I would expect test levels to be perhaps 50-25% less than baseline after 1 week of refeeding at very high caloric levels 4500+ due to how much it has dropped (also you must factor in increase of SHBG which binds free test)

Anyways.... I'd like to see something like this in regards to prolonged, extended periods of caloric restriction. This study does support the benefits of refeeds on hormone profile though on acute caloric restriction.

Reps on recharge for the study.

[unleashthelion]

sheeet I thought mine was low

My condolences. Yeah, mine has absolutely plummeted in the last month; it was near your levels for months and now the bottom has finally fallen out.

All very interesting discussion -- I'm merely a social scientist, lol, so some of this is going over my head - but it's very interesting discussion.

[jshpark]

I just wonder if a longer deeper cut risks establishing a "new normal" in that regulatory loop, leaving you with chronically lower test levels that don't upregulate as they should.

A lot of things to think about. Possible changes in receptor density, enzymes, energy for signalling, and all the the cool little growth factors, cofactors and all such things that need energy and time to be upregulated. Capillary density, blood flow, tissue loss, age, genetics etc etc etc lolz

[jshpark]

My condolences. Yeah, mine has absolutely plummeted in the last month; it was near your levels for months and now the bottom has finally fallen out.

All very interesting discussion -- I'm merely a social scientist, lol, so some of this is going over my head - but it's very interesting discussion.

The study basically shows a group of soldiers who went through 4 phases of training in all kinds of different environments. Group 1 = 1000-1200 kcal deficit, group 2 had average 400 kcal intake higher.* The data was collected between two ranger programs separated by a year. Only in group 2 did they look at hormone levels after a refeed. Otherwise, samples were collected after the training and hypocaloric phase.

Refeeds were going around 5k for a whole week while energy intake was like 1500ish in group 1 and 2000ish in group 2 in the training phases 7-10 days. These guys are training hard and facing sleep deprivation and harsh environment.

There was a general trend and downregulation of all hormones quickly but plateauing as time went on (still decreasing). But in group 2, they measured hormones after the 3rd phase refeed. They found a return to baseline levels but a sharp drop below the previous training week's collection when calories were restricted again. Group 1's levels are consistently lower than group 2 in testosterone and other such hormones. There are some interesting quirks in some of the hormones but I don't want to look too deep into it.

Basically, it shows a quick bounce back of hormones after a high calorie 7 day refeed ~5kish calories (I don't know their energy expenditure during this time) but they lost weight throughout the whole 8 weeks

They followed up with 10 soldiers from group 2 in 5 weeks and they average gained about ~11kg within 5 weeks after the training program and weighed heavier than when they started the program. Some variation in some hormones but testosterone was higher as well as SHBG was lower and some good signs. T3 was higher etc.

edit: *I gotta add that assumed daily deficit through the whole thing was 1k-1.2k for group 1 and 400 less for group 2. This would take into account the very large deficits in the training period and high surplus phases of the refeed period. They said energy expenditure could be over 6k some of the training days.

[Former300lber]

After my first long initial cut my test level's were pretty low, I ate 13,500 calorie's 1 day, and then an average of 5600 calorie's for 7 day's straight after which I thought me was just going on a crazy binge fest (Which I did hehe) but after that week, my hormone level's were pretty close to being back to normal... **** man, Suck's to see your's have gone to the toilet... Don't worry man, after a while they will hopefully come back up, your still young right?

[vismal]

Are you seeing a general practitioner or an endocrinologist? If they put you on transdermal testosterone and you begin using it, your bodies natural test levels won't rebound. The body stops making testosterone when you are getting it from an external source. At your age I would not go on TRT unless I had seen an endocrinologist.

[jshpark]

Are you seeing a general practitioner or an endocrinologist? If they put you on transdermal testosterone and you begin using it, your bodies natural test levels won't rebound. The body stops making testosterone when you are getting it from an external source. At your age I would not go on TRT unless I had seen an endocrinologist.

^^

A responsible doctor in my opinion always tries to exhaust natural options before resorting to drugs unless in cases of emergency. I say the same about psychiatrists who just give their patients cocktails of drugs and just hope for the best through trial and error. I could go on all day about this but try to de-stress, eat some good food, stay at maintenance or a slight surplus (you might need to increase calories as time goes on as things kick up and maintenance levels rise). When you feel better start doing some weightlifting, get sunlight, eat healthy food etc etc

It's sad when doctors just straight up offer the millions of drugs for the millions of sicknesses out there. I just see it as a case of laziness and business. People rather pop pills and doctors rather get paid to sell the meds and move on to the next patient. Of course there are amazing/responsible doctors out there who know their **** but... this is a whole other discussion about ethics and business

/rant over. sorry for the de-rail and wish you the best for your health.

[unleashthelion]

Oh, I've had the prescription for months and I never filled it or intended on filling it; they looked at me like I was crazy when I said this commonly occurs in people who eat at a deficit for many months.

Thanks for the well wishes and I am relatively young, as well as unconcerned -- I knew this was going to happen going in, I was just surprised that it crashed the way it has. I do believe my levels would be greatly improved by a week re-feed, the question is how long until it crashes back down if I go back on a deficit.

Thanks all and will rep when on a computer.

[tara19]

That's been a huge issue for me; I haven't had adequate dietary fat, with any regularity, in months. I reasoned that my test was fubar'd due to the deficit, anyways, so why worry about my fat intake (from a hormonal perspective).

Have you thought about increasing dietary fat? :S

[unleashthelion]

Have you thought about increasing dietary fat? :S

Definitely! Haha, I plan on focusing on that from here on out - as I feel I can actually, finally, enjoy the hormonal benefits from adequate intake.

[tara19]

Definitely! Haha, I plan on focusing on that from here on out - as I feel I can actually, finally, enjoy the hormonal benefits from adequate intake.

Ah okay, good.
I thought you were considering going to maintenance but not fixing dietary fat intake..
>.<