Nutrient Timing--is it BS?

[mattvdh]

I've seen a lot of articles and videos on how you want to time carbs around the time when you work out so that it doesn't store as fat, and also you want to eat many small meals a day to keep your metabolism fired up...Is this thinking a load of crap--does it all just come down to calories in/out?

[Gxp23]

Why are you doing this lol???

In terms of body composition, yea its pretty much bullchit.

In terms of performance in the gym etc....i.e eating a high carb meal a cpl hours before hand can improve performance in individuals who perform better with them in their system.

Other ways it can be of use is for those about to step on stage etc, do a modeling shoot and such, they can manipulate not only the likes of carbs (filling out) but water, sodium as well to stretch the skin out even more.

[ELLSKIES]

Carbs don't 'store as fat' unless they're eaten in EXTREME excess after glycogen stores are already full. They're burned in favor of fat or protein, so they're muscle-sparing. Eat them whenever you feel like it. Close thread.

[WMLifting]

Let's just say that if you eat oatmeal before a workout, you will probably be digesting it after your done.. I usually train in a fasted state on some coffee, maybe some BCAA's (although useless for me), and some SF gum.

[mattvdh]

Carbs don't 'store as fat' unless they're eaten in EXTREME excess after glycogen stores are already full. They're burned in favor of fat or protein, so they're muscle-sparing. Eat them whenever you feel like it. Close thread.

How does one know when glycogen stores are full? And wouldn't it be fat sparing as well?

[mattvdh]

Let's just say that if you eat oatmeal before a workout, you will probably be digesting it after your done.. I usually train in a fasted state on some coffee, maybe some BCAA's (although useless for me), and some SF gum.

Why would you probably digest it after your work out is done? Consuming nothing but coffee is supposedly hard on your adrenal glands.
How are you supposed to train with no gas in the tank?

[mattvdh]

Why are you doing this lol???

In terms of body composition, yea its pretty much bullchit.

In terms of performance in the gym etc....i.e eating a high carb meal a cpl hours before hand can improve performance in individuals who perform better with them in their system.

Other ways it can be of use is for those about to step on stage etc, do a modeling shoot and such, they can manipulate not only the likes of carbs (filling out) but water, sodium as well to stretch the skin out even more.

What do you mean in terms of body composition? I can see how someone who is at an extremely low BF% and low calorie intake could puff up quite a bit and appear to look more full with a carb up meal, but what about the average person who is around 15% and consumes a balanced diet.

[WMLifting]

Why would you probably digest it after your work out is done? Consuming nothing but coffee is supposedly hard on your adrenal glands.
How are you supposed to train with no gas in the tank?

The digestion rate of whole food is a lot slower than you think. Of course after consumption their is a increase in blood glucose, but if you consume carbs that aren't gatorade or sugar then I doubt your really using those carbs. This does not mean it can differ between people on how they feel.

"A relatively ‘normal’ whole-food meal is still releasing nutrients (carbs and protein) into the bloodstream as much as 4-5 hours after you eat it."
-Lyle McDonald, Q&A.

[Gneejack]

It's all a matter of preference, some people train better after having some "gas in the tank", others prefer training fasted. I tried both ways and I personally like to train fasted, with just a cup of coffee. I have more energy training this way. I was never much of a breakfast person, I don't get hungry for a good 4-6 hours after I wake up. Also, I feel groggy and slow after a meal, not the best state to be in when training. My advice to anyone would be to try both methods and see what works for you. Whether there are actual physiological benefits from meal timing? If there were, they were so minute, I certainly didn't notice any.

[sdunn96]

I am the same boat as WMLifting.
I work out fasted....

If you are doing some form of Intermittent Fasting....then nutrient timing is a factor.

[mattvdh]

The digestion rate of whole food is a lot slower than you think. Of course after consumption their is a increase in blood glucose, but if you consume carbs that aren't gatorade or sugar then I doubt your really using those carbs. This does not mean it can differ between people on how they feel.

"A relatively ‘normal’ whole-food meal is still releasing nutrients (carbs and protein) into the bloodstream as much as 4-5 hours after you eat it."
-Lyle McDonald, Q&A.

so how come ronnie coleman and phil heath start their day with a big bowl of oats? Granted they are on AAS but carb intake would still affect their body fat percentage if that were accurate.

Also, when do you eat carbs then? post work out when you aren't moving and then they will be stored as fat as well? It seems like you can't win at this timing game. If you consume them before the workout, you body burns glucose as fuel first, and if consumed after it doesn't burn it at all.

[mattvdh]

It's all a matter of preference, some people train better after having some "gas in the tank", others prefer training fasted. I tried both ways and I personally like to train fasted, with just a cup of coffee. I have more energy training this way. I was never much of a breakfast person, I don't get hungry for a good 4-6 hours after I wake up. Also, I feel groggy and slow after a meal, not the best state to be in when training. My advice to anyone would be to try both methods and see what works for you. Whether there are actual physiological benefits from meal timing? If there were, they were so minute, I certainly didn't notice any.

Well what you're describing in reference to your grogginess is a physiological response. So for you it's purely psychological? You just avoid eating in the morning simply because it makes you feel less energetic? Food is supposed to give you energy though, personally, I feel like a champ after having steak and eggs in the morning.

[mattvdh]

I am the same boat as WMLifting.
I work out fasted....

If you are doing some form of Intermittent Fasting....then nutrient timing is a factor.

I asked a similar question to this post, but was more specifically referring to IF. The guys agreed that it's all about calorie in/out.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=157535753

[sdunn96]

I asked a similar question to this post, but was more specifically referring to IF. The guys agreed that it's all about calorie in/out.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=157535753

Yes I have heard and read the same.

I think ultimately things will come down to calorie in/out.
Even with IF
But from doing Leangains for almost 3 months.
I do believe, and have a firm belief that nutrient intake is important.

If you read Martin's site, Leangains.com
And do the program as he suggests.....there is something your body is able to do, based on when you take in food or not.

But hey, that is me.
And I accept the fact, that I can be very wrong.....
I have only a test subject of one. That is me.

[ELLSKIES]

How does one know when glycogen stores are full? And wouldn't it be fat sparing as well?

Yup, correcto. They're fat and muscle sparing. But they don't 'turn to fat.' Make sense?

[xJellyBirdx]

Yup, correcto. They're fat and muscle sparing. But they don't 'turn to fat.' Make sense?

Keep in mind, Matt, this doesn't mean if you go no carb that you are going to waste LBM. Provided you eat enough protein per day, one shouldn't have to worry, but in extreme cases anything is possible.

[mattvdh]

So I think what I've gotten from this thread is that it's beneficial to consume carbs before weight lifting or any sort of strength training activity, but it you consume them before cardio it doesn't burn fat.

The question that still lingers however is when do you consume carbs if your goal is fat loss and muscle building? Carb inhibit fat burning before cardio, and also store as fat if left unused. Can you consume carbs post cardio?

[mattvdh]

Explain how Asians manage to stay so thin eating mostly carbs? That throws the nutrient timing theory out the window, doesn't it?

[mattvdh]

Keep in mind, Matt, this doesn't mean if you go no carb that you are going to waste LBM. Provided you eat enough protein per day, one shouldn't have to worry, but in extreme cases anything is possible.

I'm not sure about that, carbs seem to help with muscle sparing during a cut. Glycogen and insulin are good tools for retaining and building muscle.

[mattvdh]

Yes I have heard and read the same.

I think ultimately things will come down to calorie in/out.
Even with IF
But from doing Leangains for almost 3 months.
I do believe, and have a firm belief that nutrient intake is important.

If you read Martin's site, Leangains.com
And do the program as he suggests.....there is something your body is able to do, based on when you take in food or not.

But hey, that is me.
And I accept the fact, that I can be very wrong.....
I have only a test subject of one. That is me.

I've never heard of that blog, but after glancing at it for a couple of minutes it bleeds of poorly written broscience.

[sdunn96]

I'm not sure about that, carbs seem to help with muscle sparing during a cut. Glycogen and insulin are good tools for retaining and building muscle.

Your body can make glycogen off of protein and fats....it doesn't need carbs to do so.

You might find reading the following pretty interesting.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...e-get-fat.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...oxidation.html

[sdunn96]

I've never heard of that blog, but after glancing at it for a couple of minutes it bleeds of poorly written broscience.

Ok mate.

I would disagree....but if that is how you feel, by all means disregard.

Alan Aragon doesn't view it that way, I will say that.

[sdunn96]

Explain how Asians manage to stay so thin eating mostly carbs? That throws the nutrient timing theory out the window, doesn't it?

Carbs are more filling (in my opinion), so if they are doing mostly carbs....many bowls of rice....and then eat some fish and veggies....
They most likely feel full, so there is no need to overeat.....thus they stay below their caloric needs.

That would be my guess.

[sdunn96]

So I think what I've gotten from this thread is that it's beneficial to consume carbs before weight lifting or any sort of strength training activity, but it you consume them before cardio it doesn't burn fat.

The question that still lingers however is when do you consume carbs if your goal is fat loss and muscle building? Carb inhibit fat burning before cardio, and also store as fat if left unused. Can you consume carbs post cardio?

Staying below caloric needs will burn fat.....because being in deficit means the body has to get energy from somewhere, so then it goes to fat stores.

[mattvdh]

Your body can make glycogen off of protein and fats....it doesn't need carbs to do so.

You might find reading the following pretty interesting.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...e-get-fat.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...oxidation.html

Well I guess it doesn't create a sufficient amount to replenish the muscle, hence the flat look you get from the glycogen depletion.

I can't take McDonald seriously he is too contradictory in his views.

[mattvdh]

Ok mate.

I would disagree....but if that is how you feel, by all means disregard.

Alan Aragon doesn't view it that way, I will say that.

Aragon's opinion isn't infallible.

[mattvdh]

Carbs are more filling (in my opinion), so if they are doing mostly carbs....many bowls of rice....and then eat some fish and veggies....
They most likely feel full, so there is no need to overeat.....thus they stay below their caloric needs.

That would be my guess.

So again it just comes down to energy expenditure being greater than caloric intake.

[mattvdh]

Staying below caloric needs will burn fat.....because being in deficit means the body has to get energy from somewhere, so then it goes to fat stores.

Right, so again, that basically shuts down the whole nutrient timing theory. Carb timing doesn't really matter apparently if you are an active individual.

[sdunn96]

Aragon's opinion isn't infallible.

This is true....
Like I said, if you don't agree, then disregard....
I was just replying to your question about nutrient timing and giving an example.

I am currently doing LG myself, going on 3 months.
My workout days I do ~3000 - 3200 calories
Rest days are 2000 - 2300 calories.
my TDEE is ~2700....

The pic in my avatar was just taken this pass thursday.

[sdunn96]

Right, so again, that basically shuts down the whole nutrient timing theory. Carb timing doesn't really matter apparently if you are an active individual.

Again to some extent I would agree...I would cite LeanGains, but you don't agree with that .......so then we will stick with your view on this I guess.

All I can say is from my experience doing LG and what I am seeing.