Finally - Human Evidence that Cissus reduces joint pain

[Mr.Cooper69]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24113700
https://physsportsmed.org/doi/10.3810/psm.2013.09.2021

The primary MOA appears to be analgesia, since perceived pain/exertion decreased while inflammatory markers remained unchanged.

This study also suggests that the purported appetite suppressing/weight loss effects of cissus are non-existent in healthy, trained humans. The same goes for effects on lipids or blood glucose (maybe a slight TG lowering effect).

[poison]

In. There's a 'no duh' study for ya. Nice to see it anyway. No info on cortisol?

[Mr.Cooper69]

In. There's a 'no duh' study for ya. Nice to see it anyway. No info on cortisol?

I don't think it's no-duh per se. Many people report a full-on "healing" of joints via cissus. While in vitro data seems to support osteoblast stimulation, this study shows that pain perception may be at the core of cissus' activity. This, along with prior data showing remarkable elevations in plasma serotonin in humans after cissus administration, shows that cissus quadrangaluris is neuroactive.

The extract was also unstandardized for ketosteroids.


Cissus does not lower cortisol. It never has. It is a glucocorticoid receptor antagonist on bone tissue...one of the purported mechanisms wherein it prevents bone resorption.

[potionmaster]

inflammatory markers remained unchanged...

[Mr.Cooper69]

Also of note:

All subjects who were enrolled in the study received CQ (SuperCissus), 3200 mg daily. It should be noted that the intent of the investigators was to conduct the study as a placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized trial; unfortunately, there was miscommunication with the contract manufacturer and all capsules received by investigators were identical and contained CQ. As this was not determined until after the study began, all subjects received capsules containing CQ, despite being informed that they would have a 50% chance of being assigned to placebo.

[Mr.Cooper69]

inflammatory markers remained unchanged...

To be fair, the inflammatory markers they screened for are more related to the systemic immunological response, rather than site-specific inflammation.

[Smoker145]

Also of note:

All subjects who were enrolled in the study received CQ (SuperCissus), 3200 mg daily. It should be noted that the intent of the investigators was to conduct the study as a placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized trial; unfortunately, there was miscommunication with the contract manufacturer and all capsules received by investigators were identical and contained CQ. As this was not determined until after the study began, all subjects received capsules containing CQ, despite being informed that they would have a 50% chance of being assigned to placebo.

Dun goofed

[potionmaster]

3grams/day....and for what?

that would be costly and much more than proven stuff like glucosamine, no?

so does it increase test?

[poison]

I don't think it's no-duh per se. Many people report a full-on "healing" of joints via cissus. While in vitro data seems to support osteoblast stimulation, this study shows that pain perception may be at the core of cissus' activity. This, along with prior data showing remarkable elevations in plasma serotonin in humans after cissus administration, shows that cissus quadrangaluris is neuroactive.

The extract was also unstandardized for ketosteroids.


Cissus does not lower cortisol. It never has. It is a glucocorticoid receptor antagonist on bone tissue...one of the purported mechanisms wherein it prevents bone resorption.

I'm just saying no duh to analgesic effects. Healing is pretty strong wishful thinking; it's traditional use is for breaks and fractures, not so much soft tissue and cartilage. I'd bet it does heal bone breaks, but it isn't going to fix your grinding knee, even if it helps the pain. Regardless, if someone can pop a Cissus, as opposed to chronic ibuprofen use, and get the relief they need, I call it a serious win.

It might have been better that it was unstandardized.

[mtpaquette]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24113700
https://physsportsmed.org/doi/10.3810/psm.2013.09.2021

The primary MOA appears to be analgesia, since perceived pain/exertion decreased while inflammatory markers remained unchanged.

This study also suggests that the purported appetite suppressing/weight loss effects of cissus are non-existent in healthy, trained humans. The same goes for effects on lipids or blood glucose (maybe a slight TG lowering effect).

This is pertinent to my interests.

Also of note:

All subjects who were enrolled in the study received CQ (SuperCissus), 3200 mg daily. It should be noted that the intent of the investigators was to conduct the study as a placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized trial; unfortunately, there was miscommunication with the contract manufacturer and all capsules received by investigators were identical and contained CQ. As this was not determined until after the study began, all subjects received capsules containing CQ, despite being informed that they would have a 50% chance of being assigned to placebo.

lol. whoops.

[aaronuconn]

Also of note:

All subjects who were enrolled in the study received CQ (SuperCissus), 3200 mg daily. It should be noted that the intent of the investigators was to conduct the study as a placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized trial; unfortunately, there was miscommunication with the contract manufacturer and all capsules received by investigators were identical and contained CQ. As this was not determined until after the study began, all subjects received capsules containing CQ, despite being informed that they would have a 50% chance of being assigned to placebo.

lol, how often does this happen? Never heard of something like that happening.

[BogusForLife]

lol, how often does this happen? Never heard of something like that happening.

It's usually when the scientists themselves are double-blind.

[Mr.Cooper69]

We had it happen for one of our trials in orthopedic research. Its amazing how certain pill designs can make placebo acquisition so restrictive. In this case though, making a placebo should have been cake

[DasBiceps]

To be fair, the inflammatory markers they screened for are more related to the systemic immunological response, rather than site-specific inflammation.

So for example, someone had tendinitis but after a while the pain comes back, would CQ help reduce inflammation?

[Mr.Cooper69]

So for example, someone had tendinitis but after a while the pain comes back, would CQ help reduce inflammation?

This study doesn't answer that question. You'd need to look at select interleukins and cytokines

[BogusForLife]

This study doesn't answer that question. You'd need to look at select interleukins and cytokines

Duh.

[itzDodge]

dat feel when you've graduated and don't get access for free anymore, no me gusta

[matpal]

Am I the only one who has moderately severe GI issues from high dose Cissus? USP's product was a staple for me, but I just couldn't (quite literally) stomach it anymore.

Any ideas there, Coop?

[itzDodge]

Am I the only one who has moderately severe GI issues from high dose Cissus? USP's product was a staple for me, but I just couldn't (quite literally) stomach it anymore.

Any ideas there, Coop?

You might have naturally low stomach acid.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3326759/

These findings showed that methanolic extract of C. quadrangularis Linn. is potent inhibitor of proton pump.

[powercage]

That's unfortunate, I would have liked to see a reduction in inflammatory markers.

[itzDodge]

That's unfortunate, I would have liked to see a reduction in inflammatory markers.

I'm not sure if it would even be a good thing if healthy people saw a further decrease in inflammation. To top it off joint pain is caused by inflammation, the inflammation is reactionary however. If you just treat the symptom you probably won't really fix the problem. For weeks my shoulder was killing me and no amount of therapy seemed to be helping. Started training the RC muscles/rear delts directly with light weight 3-4 days a week and the pain's almost entirely gone a few weeks later. If inflammation was the problem then the pain should have gotten worse with more direct work but it got rapidly better. Nomsayin?

[powercage]

I'm not sure if it would even be a good thing if healthy people saw a further decrease in inflammation. To top it off joint pain is caused by inflammation, the inflammation is reactionary however. If you just treat the symptom you probably won't really fix the problem. For weeks my shoulder was killing me and no amount of therapy seemed to be helping. Started training the RC muscles/rear delts directly with light weight 3-4 days a week and the pain's almost entirely gone a few weeks later. If inflammation was the problem then the pain should have gotten worse with more direct work but it got rapidly better. Nomsayin?

You do have a point. I was just hoping for something other than an analgesic benefit. Ah well, future studies may be dialed in a bit more to show some as of yet unknown benefits

[VaughnTrue]

Pairing cissus with an anti inflammatory would seem like a good idea then. Joint Help anyone?

[gymrat53]

I'm not sure if it would even be a good thing if healthy people saw a further decrease in inflammation. To top it off joint pain is caused by inflammation, the inflammation is reactionary however. If you just treat the symptom you probably won't really fix the problem. For weeks my shoulder was killing me and no amount of therapy seemed to be helping. Started training the RC muscles/rear delts directly with light weight 3-4 days a week and the pain's almost entirely gone a few weeks later. If inflammation was the problem then the pain should have gotten worse with more direct work but it got rapidly better. Nomsayin?

Dis. People want to take a pill to cure whatever pain they have when they really need to figure out what is going on that is causing the problem. My knee bothered me for months so I started focusing on hip flexibility and box squatted every day while perfecting my form and keeping my shins as vertical as possible. Problem is almost entirely gone in 1 month while squatting 3-4 days a week.

People fail to realize whatever area is a problem is usually just the victim and not the actual culprit of their pain. For example my knee hurt so instead of looking directly at my knee to solve my problem I worked on my hip and ankle flexibility and technique of exercises that bothered it.

[itzDodge]

You do have a point. I was just hoping for something other than an analgesic benefit. Ah well, future studies may be dialed in a bit more to show some as of yet unknown benefits

I am curious as to how cissus acts as an analgesic without being anti-inflammatory though. Like Agmatine for example is an analgesic through secretion of beta-endorphin which also conveniently increases skeletal muscle glucose uptake.

Dis. People want to take a pill to cure whatever pain they have when they really need to figure out what is going on that is causing the problem. My knee bothered me for months so I started focusing on hip flexibility and box squatted every day while perfecting my form and keeping my shins as vertical as possible. Problem is almost entirely gone in 1 month while squatting 3-4 days a week.

People fail to realize whatever area is a problem is usually just the victim and not the actual culprit of their pain. For example my knee hurt so instead of looking directly at my knee to solve my problem I worked on my hip and ankle flexibility and technique of exercises that bothered it.

The body is a surprisingly capable machine, just needs to be treated right and listened to

[SupremeMMA]

Good info Coop, thanks.

Pairing cissus with an anti inflammatory would seem like a good idea then. Joint Help anyone?

Joint Help user here... good product.

[TMac26]

I wish bb.com would carry our Joint Armor product

[JustinHawkins]

Somewhat related...

When I did a log for Flexible, it worked wonders. I was using ibuprofen as needed at the time too. My joints felt great AND my tendon issues I was having in my shoulders felt like they were numbed. Of course once I was off of Flexible for a week or two then my issues came back. My mother then bought me Doctor's Best joint supp (not from bb but she said she got it for $15 somewhere). Doctor's Best lacks cissus. I also have been out of any NSAIDs since I began using Doctor's Best. After a week or so on this new one I don't really feel a change...yet. Could cissus have been the answer?

[JH34PG]

Good find Coop!

[longhorns_p]

Good find Coop!

Avi reminds me of something from the birdcage or night at the Roxbury