Intermediate/Advanced Routine - Revision 1

[dexdizzle]

Sigh...I've gotta say...I'm getting a lot more burnt out on this version of the routine than the old one. While it's probably true that higher frequency with equal volume results in faster gains, I really do miss the pump and feeling like I completely obliterated each muscle group.

I also don't feel like my muscles can handle as much volume as they used to be able to in a single session (which I traded for a faster recovery time). Although my strength is still slowly progressing, my muscles feel less "full" all the time than they did when I was on the old routine. Perhaps this is because they are actually holding less glycogen? This is just an observation I have had.

I must also say that I have less fun in the gym than I did on the old routine...mentally, there's something awesome about being able to focus all of your energy toward a specific muscle or muscle group.

I'm sorry for ranting here, just wanted to express my feelings right now and I know Lurker feels similarly in this way.

Blah blah blah...

[golfwolf]

What does everyone do for their warm up sets? Do you do a general warm up then go into the working set for the first exercise?.....warm up sets before each working set for each exercise?..... Other ?

[krysix]

Hello, I come here every now and then because I've always wanted to try this routine but something stops me. That thing is bench press without spotter. I tried once to do rest pause bench press without spotter and I almost die. I don't want to risk my live 3xweek. Is there a good altenative to bench press (apart from dumbbell bench press) that does not need spotter? I was thinking about hammer strength bench press.

[64509chvl]

Hello, I come here every now and then because I've always wanted to try this routine but something stops me. That thing is bench press without spotter. I tried once to do rest pause bench press without spotter and I almost die. I don't want to risk my live 3xweek. Is there a good altenative to bench press (apart from dumbbell bench press) that does not need spotter? I was thinking about hammer strength bench press.

I have a flat bench I slide into my squat rack...I set the safety bars so they're just at my chest, works great!

[DravenCarey]

Hey guys, I'm going to be away from a gym and any form of substantial weights for a few days but I'm not in a position to treat it like a deload so I still want to keep myself active. What're some body weight/no equipment exercises I can do as substitutes for this? This is what Im planning on running every day (4-6 days):

20-30 bw chin ups
20-30 bw pull ups
30-40 bw tri dips (if I can find bars to do it on)
however many push ups I can manage
body weight squat/squat jumps
possibly GHR's if I can find a place to do them

That's about all I can think of offhand. Any other suggestions? I'm currently cutting and would normally do 20 reps per exercise but since non of the bw stuff is weighted I figure i'll either push for 30 reps or go until I can't do any more.

[krysix]

I have a flat bench I slide into my squat rack...I set the safety bars so they're just at my chest, works great!

Unfortunately I can't do that in my gym. We have just 1 squat rack (which is fine cause it's almost always is empty) but the problem is that the damn benches don't fit in the rack. I know I should change gyms but it's cheap and near home.

[jplatt92091]

Hello, I come here every now and then because I've always wanted to try this routine but something stops me. That thing is bench press without spotter. I tried once to do rest pause bench press without spotter and I almost die. I don't want to risk my live 3xweek. Is there a good altenative to bench press (apart from dumbbell bench press) that does not need spotter? I was thinking about hammer strength bench press.

You could try weighted dips.

[BenRabara]

Hello, I come here every now and then because I've always wanted to try this routine but something stops me. That thing is bench press without spotter. I tried once to do rest pause bench press without spotter and I almost die. I don't want to risk my live 3xweek. Is there a good altenative to bench press (apart from dumbbell bench press) that does not need spotter? I was thinking about hammer strength bench press.

Weighted Dips and Incline dumbbell bench press if you're afraid of getting pinned. I do however like bench pressing (and have always done bench press without a spotter) rest pause style because it teaches me when I can do one more or if I'm fried for that particular set. I've been pinned countless of times before with ICF 5x5 but haven't since I started with Kelei's Routine. It doesn't make my argument more logical but I'm learning how to auto-regulate myself even if I'm still just a beginner which I think would be valuable as I progress with my weight lifting.

[gingersgym]

Sigh...I've gotta say...I'm getting a lot more burnt out on this version of the routine than the old one. While it's probably true that higher frequency with equal volume results in faster gains, I really do miss the pump and feeling like I completely obliterated each muscle group.

I also don't feel like my muscles can handle as much volume as they used to be able to in a single session (which I traded for a faster recovery time). Although my strength is still slowly progressing, my muscles feel less "full" all the time than they did when I was on the old routine. Perhaps this is because they are actually holding less glycogen? This is just an observation I have had.

I must also say that I have less fun in the gym than I did on the old routine...mentally, there's something awesome about being able to focus all of your energy toward a specific muscle or muscle group.

I'm sorry for ranting here, just wanted to express my feelings right now and I know Lurker feels similarly in this way.

Blah blah blah...

I feel exactly the same!

gone back to the old routine, increased frequency may be a factor

but if i feel better mentally training then i think its a bigger win as you can train the muscle in question properly instead of half assed...

back and bi today :P gosh this is gna feel good no legs after savage pull-ups haha

[69cam]

I have a flat bench I slide into my squat rack...I set the safety bars so they're just at my chest, works great!

Thats how I do it too.

It has saved me more than once.

[Spaceghost1]

Is it possible to do this workout 6 days a week? Is that going to give your muscles enough time to recover? I am doing it 3 times a week at the moment but would like to increase it, but it seems like you hit the same muscle groups every workout, just with different exercises. It's basically a full body workout isn't it? Whereas the old version was more of a split. I do like the fact that this workout doesn't take as long as the old version.

[64509chvl]

Thats how I do it too.

It has saved me more than once.

Ha ha, no doubt! I've never dropped the weight but I've gotten stuck a couple times & it's no big deal this way...although I'm confident to say that if I did drop the weight, the safety bars would prolly save my life or atleast a serious injury!

[BenRabara]

What does everyone do for their warm up sets? Do you do a general warm up then go into the working set for the first exercise?.....warm up sets before each working set for each exercise?..... Other ?

Kelei stated that he did 1 rep with every plate he loaded to the bar as his warm up. Really just do the warm up you're most comfortable with. Just make sure it doesn't decrease your working set's performance.

[klaximilian]

What does everyone do for their warm up sets? Do you do a general warm up then go into the working set for the first exercise?.....warm up sets before each working set for each exercise?..... Other ?

Typically, I stretch and load up about 60% of my weight, then do 5-7 reps. Stretch, load up to 80% and do 3 reps. Stretch, rest one minute…get at it. Works fine for me.

[dcfd522]

Sigh...I've gotta say...I'm getting a lot more burnt out on this version of the routine than the old one. While it's probably true that higher frequency with equal volume results in faster gains, I really do miss the pump and feeling like I completely obliterated each muscle group.

I also don't feel like my muscles can handle as much volume as they used to be able to in a single session (which I traded for a faster recovery time). Although my strength is still slowly progressing, my muscles feel less "full" all the time than they did when I was on the old routine. Perhaps this is because they are actually holding less glycogen? This is just an observation I have had.

I must also say that I have less fun in the gym than I did on the old routine...mentally, there's something awesome about being able to focus all of your energy toward a specific muscle or muscle group.

I'm sorry for ranting here, just wanted to express my feelings right now and I know Lurker feels similarly in this way.

Blah blah blah...

I also felt more worn out overall with the full body frequency. I guess some people can function like this while others do best with a split. Glad to have a least a few other people hybridizing and going back to a split.

[Luus]

I still do the fullbody routine and love it. I want to optimize my results and the end goal is my motivation, not on if I like the training style. To each their own I suppose.

On warming up, I only warm up on big lifts. For example with RDL : 1 rep with 60 kg, 1 rep with 100 kg, then the main set of 8-12 reps. With dips, pullups and chins I do 2 reps with only my bodyweight real quick. When you do this you feel light as a feather lol.

[64509chvl]

I really liking it aswell...just seems to work for me, mentally & physically! Obviously we're all diferent, that's why there are so many diferent types of programs.

My warmups are basically only the first compound aswell...after that I feel I'm ready to go! Usually stretch out later in the evening.

[Effrum]

I had an idea for the spring when I'm off this cut I'm on. The concept is to combine to two of Kelei's routine's into one routine, molded around the basic concept of PHAT.

I'd take the original Kelei routine split up into D1/D2/D3 and make 50 reps the baseline, but feel free to do more if you're feeling good that day. Then, on my weekends I'd perform his revised routine (A/B days) and perform them for strength by lifting at weights that I would fail after 5 reps. Then continue on to 15 total reps for each exercise.

I'm not sure how it would work, but I'm inclined to think it would be pretty awesome since both Kelei's and Layne routine have been great.

Thoughts?

The first thing that jumps out to me is that you're training with 2 different weight ranges (10RM and 5RM). Kelei has said many times that your body adapts to the average of the stimulus in your training. This means that you're looking at training something around an 8RM on all exercises, so the increases in your 10RM and 5RM will be coming from carryover. You would see better progress training your 8RM directly.

I suppose you could lower the weights of your stuff during the week to a 15RM (and increase the volume) and then do a 5RM on the weekend. That would still average out to about a 10RM.

Not to say that you shouldn't experiment and try this - especially if you feel like it'll work for you. That's just the main concern I had when reading your idea: trying to do 2 things when your body can only really improve 1 (the average).

[Effrum]

Just to add my own 2 cents on the whole revised vs original routine thing. I will admit that I do miss the insane pump I would get per muscle group on the old routine. But I do enjoy that I have a full body pump every day. It may not be as big of a pump as I would get per muscle group, but at least it's constant lol.

Plus I feel like my strength gains are faster (well, they were before I started cutting again), and ultimately that means I'll reach my end-goal faster as well. So the benefits outweigh the lack of a pump for me lol.

Either way, both of Kelei's routines are great, and as long as you have the determination to follow through on them (whichever you choose), you're definitely gonna get some insane results!

[RGA8]

Just to add my own 2 cents on the whole revised vs original routine thing. I will admit that I do miss the insane pump I would get per muscle group on the old routine. But I do enjoy that I have a full body pump every day. It may not be as big of a pump as I would get per muscle group, but at least it's constant lol.

Plus I feel like my strength gains are faster (well, they were before I started cutting again), and ultimately that means I'll reach my end-goal faster as well. So the benefits outweigh the lack of a pump for me lol.

Either way, both of Kelei's routines are great, and as long as you have the determination to follow through on them (whichever you choose), you're definitely gonna get some insane results!

Agreed.

Both routines are very effective, balanced, and actually extremely similiar. I prefer the revised routine.

The fact that it's full body means you can increase/decrease the volume on a day to day basis depending on how you feel and not have to worry about balancing each muscle group. Increased frequency means you are doing the same exercises every second day. For me this makes it easier to learn new movements, and refine my form. Do you ever get finished with an exercise and think "I wasn't really focusing on contracting the muscle" or "I didn't really squeeze my shoulder blades as much as I could have"? I find it easier to remember this kind of thing on the revised routine and make the necessary adjustments just 2 days later.

I have noticed a slight increase in the rate of my gains as well. Could be confirmation bias but regardless I feel more motivated.

[krysix]

Weighted Dips and Incline dumbbell bench press if you're afraid of getting pinned. I do however like bench pressing (and have always done bench press without a spotter) rest pause style because it teaches me when I can do one more or if I'm fried for that particular set. I've been pinned countless of times before with ICF 5x5 but haven't since I started with Kelei's Routine. It doesn't make my argument more logical but I'm learning how to auto-regulate myself even if I'm still just a beginner which I think would be valuable as I progress with my weight lifting.

I meant apart from dips to replace bench press in the B workout. The problem with dumbbells is that it's uncomfortable once you start using heavy ones, needing help or getting tired pushing them up to start a set and that in my gym there are pretty big jumps when you need to increase the weight. Is hammer strength bench press a good substitute?

[klaximilian]

The first thing that jumps out to me is that you're training with 2 different weight ranges (10RM and 5RM). Kelei has said many times that your body adapts to the average of the stimulus in your training. This means that you're looking at training something around an 8RM on all exercises, so the increases in your 10RM and 5RM will be coming from carryover. You would see better progress training your 8RM directly.

I suppose you could lower the weights of your stuff during the week to a 15RM (and increase the volume) and then do a 5RM on the weekend. That would still average out to about a 10RM.

Not to say that you shouldn't experiment and try this - especially if you feel like it'll work for you. That's just the main concern I had when reading your idea: trying to do 2 things when your body can only really improve 1 (the average).

Thanks. I appreciate the reply. (more reps when I can send them your way again, need to spread them out first) I'm soliciting for suggestions for a revised routine well before I try it out just in case it's not optimal.

The reason I'm looking to tweak my routine is because I have a kid on the way and in a couple months, I may find it difficult to get to the gym consistently at 5 days/week. Realistically, I think I'm only going to find time for 4 days, and I don't want to sell myself short so I want to maximize my work in the gym. Maybe it's best to just keep the A/B routine and just push it towards 40-50 reps per day?

[ctprelude]

I personally enjoy this revised routine more than the original. While I still enjoyed lifting on the old split, I look forward to every day a lot more now versus the old one where I'd be excited, but still somewhat dread legs day. I think it's easier to go hard on just two leg lifts each day and for only 30 reps. I don't think it's been any harder on my body either, as I just went 6 weeks before my deload, and while I started feeling more fatigued towards the end, it wasn't any worse than the original for me.

[BenRabara]

I meant apart from dips to replace bench press in the B workout. The problem with dumbbells is that it's uncomfortable once you start using heavy ones, needing help or getting tired pushing them up to start a set and that in my gym there are pretty big jumps when you need to increase the weight. Is hammer strength bench press a good substitute?

I believe Kelei is okay with machines as long as it mimics the movement that you're to replace. Dumbbells are a logistical nightmare, you made me think to switch to Incline Hammer Strength.

BTW, Deload week! (Though this is the fifth week, not the fourth) Also up by 4lbs since I started (a month ago) and a little bit leaner.

[ThatOneLurker]

Dumbbell benching really isn't as annoying as you guys may think.

Then again I'm only using 70lbs per hand.

I use a 10RM and only increase the weight once it becomes a 14-15RM to make up the difference in 5lbs weight jumps.

It's also slightly easier to get them up when you bench with a neutral grip (palms facing each other). Kelei has stated that it activates the chest a bit more while minimizing shoulder activation and I do feel a better stretch.

[klaximilian]

So I'm about to attempt one overreach day prior to my carb load (keto) and follow that up with one more overreach on Thursday (post 48-hour carb load) just to burn the glycogen off. Today's overreach looks like (in lbs.):

Pullups: x30 (25)
15˚ Bench Press: x30 (175)
Chest Flyes: x30 (50)
Dips: x30 (90)
Tricep Pulldowns: x30 (80)
Chinups: x30 (42.5)
Incline Curls: X30 (42.5)
Upright Row: x30 (110)
Arnold Press: x20 (42.5)
Seated Row: x30 (320)
BB Shrugs: x20-30 (245)
---
High Bar Back Squats x30-40 (225)
Leg Curls: x30-40 (130)
1-Leg Extensions x30 (115)
Calf Press Extensions 3x12 (540)
Romanian Deadlift: x20-30 (245)
Seated Calf Raises: 3x10 (150)

If I don't make it out alive, it was a pleasure shooting the breeze with you guys. Oh, and Merry Christmas (or whatever you celebrate).

[eriquee]

Dumbbell benching really isn't as annoying as you guys may think.

Then again I'm only using 70lbs per hand.

I use a 10RM and only increase the weight once it becomes a 14-15RM to make up the difference in 5lbs weight jumps.

It's also slightly easier to get them up when you bench with a neutral grip (palms facing each other). Kelei has stated that it activates the chest a bit more while minimizing shoulder activation and I do feel a better stretch.

Its doable until a certain weight, but in some point the future you will have to move to the barbell, there just wont be heavy enough dumbbells for you to use......

[klaximilian]

Its doable until a certain weight, but in some point the future you will have to move to the barbell, there just wont be heavy enough dumbbells for you to use......

When I make it past 150 lbs on the DB press, I'll gladly make the switch.

[krysix]

I finally started this routine yesterday. It felt pretty good, I was bored of strength routines with no pump and doing few exercises resting way more than lifting. I did incline hammer strength bench press (though it has a very low incline) and I think it was good, felt a little pump in my pecs, triceps and front delts. If I lack any of those muscles after a while I will add one isolation that day.

[ThatOneLurker]

Its doable until a certain weight, but in some point the future you will have to move to the barbell, there just wont be heavy enough dumbbells for you to use......

I'll just do AMRAP with those dumbbells then. I refuse to switch to the crappy 45 degree incline bench my gym has.