Intermediate/Advanced Routine - Revision 1

[Effrum]

Got a problem with making a new nutrition plan following kelei's advice.

I always end up with way to many protein. I weigh 154 lbs so I'd need about 110 grams of protein.
Instead I always end up around 150-160 grams and sometimes even more.

I know it's not necessary to count them but I've always counted my kcal like this. I just want to make sure my ratios are correct.

I'm currently bulking at around 3000 kcal but I'm having trouble filling up my carbs without adding an excess of protein
My rice and oats combined make up already for 40 grams of my protein intake. Do they I need to count them as proteins or should I only count my proteins from my eggs, milk and meat?

Also, do you guys know which foods contains almost solely carbs (like bananas) but made of complex carbs (so no sucrose of fructose). Sweet potatoes are an option but they are costly where I'm from.
I always use some dextrose after my workouts but I'm looking for an alternative for my rest days.

Also for an 154 lbs guy how many grams of fat would be advised on a 3000 kcal intake?

Thx for helping me with these questions!

I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but in terms of counting your rice and oats as carbs/proteins, your macros are calculated in grams - so my understanding is this means rice and oats would count towards both. If you look at the calories in a serving of X food and then look at the grams of protein, total carbohydrate, and fat (assuming 4,4,9 cals per gram respectively) then that's usually how I see that value calculated anyway.

In other words, if a serving of rice gives you 4g of protein and 35g of carbs, then count that towards your protein and your carb macro - it doesn't mean that you would count 1 200 cal serving of rice as 200 cal of protein and then another one as 200 cal of carbs. In that case you definitely WOULD be overshooting your intakes.

Also, as Kelei has mentioned, in reality protein has a very poor conversion rate to calories by the gram. So if you DID go over in terms of your protein intake, it's not really going to hurt anything because the extra calories you're getting from the protein that isn't being used by your body are negligible.

As far as fats go, you can establish what you need in grams for protein and carbs, then make up the rest in fats to reach a specific total calorie goal.

This is how I understand it, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[davo26]

its not a problem eating over your protein macro. kelei has stated that the calories from protein are waaaay under the 4 cals per gram commonly thought, more like 0.4, and you can pretty much discount them in your macro calculations, just count carbs and fats.

[klaximilian]

Got a problem with making a new nutrition plan following kelei's advice.

I always end up with way to many protein. I weigh 154 lbs so I'd need about 110 grams of protein.
Instead I always end up around 150-160 grams and sometimes even more.

I know it's not necessary to count them but I've always counted my kcal like this. I just want to make sure my ratios are correct.

I'm currently bulking at around 3000 kcal but I'm having trouble filling up my carbs without adding an excess of protein
My rice and oats combined make up already for 40 grams of my protein intake. Do they I need to count them as proteins or should I only count my proteins from my eggs, milk and meat?

Also, do you guys know which foods contains almost solely carbs (like bananas) but made of complex carbs (so no sucrose of fructose). Sweet potatoes are an option but they are costly where I'm from.
I always use some dextrose after my workouts but I'm looking for an alternative for my rest days.

Also for an 154 lbs guy how many grams of fat would be advised on a 3000 kcal intake?

Thx for helping me with these questions!

Don't over think it.

Protein: 0.82g/lb BW
Fat: 0.4-0.6g/lb BW

*These are minimums. Just meet these and then (see below)

Fill in the rest of your calories with any amount of fat, protein, and/or carbs until you reach your bulking calorie amount. More carbs are better for this routine, but going over your protein minimums isn't going to hurt you.

[krysix]

How is going your progression in size and strength in the new revision?

[klaximilian]

How is going your progression in size and strength in the new revision?

Strength has not skyrocketed, but is steadily climbing. Size, well that is improving in the few weeks I've been on this routine. I can finally see my chest and shoulders start to pop out more, which has always been a lagging part.

Legs, slowly but surely are coming along. Unfortunately they are lagging so far behind, slowly isn't what I want. But it's better than nothing. Patience....

[reinvdw]

Hey Kelei,

My parents are concerned about the supplements I take. I take Creatine, Beta-Alanine (love the tingles), NO Boosters, Purple Wraath and occassionally Caffeine. They say they want "expertise". I thought that maybe you could help me. Can you please help me? And if not, do you know anyone who could offer this? I already tried mailing Layne Norton twice, but I guess his inbox is always full...

Thanks!

Great routine btw, doing it for a month and seeing the best results yet...

[MichielN]

How is going your progression in size and strength in the new revision?

I've been around maintenace for like 2 months and I'm getting leaner (even though I gained some weight, like 1-2kg), and strenght is skyrocketing, I'm significantly stronger then 2 or 3 months ago.

[ThatOneLurker]

I think I'm just going to hold myself at ~195lbs.


The food that's required for me to eat to continue gaining weight makes me feel way too full, sick and tired all day long. No thanks Jeff.

Plus I just hate eating. I look forward to no meals. I force down most of my meals. Literally just eating for function. Go figure that's why I was 150lbs 2 years ago.


Perma-recomp crew checking in.

[klaximilian]

You hate eating? Wow, talk about being deprived of one of the greatest joys in life.

[Chicago1287]

Are you doing external rotations and rear delt flyes? If not, start doing them, they helped my shoulder health a lot and now have no issues. I'd also recommend everyone to do Kelei's stretching routine that is posted within the first few pages of this thread. It helped me out a lot with DOMS and otherwise constantly tight muscles that were causing me issues.

How much water do you drink a day? I'd guess you're probably just not getting enough and cramping up because of it.

I have not started this routine yet but on my push/pull days, I do external rotations and flyes. But I'm not sure how much of them I should be doing.

I've never had an issue with water. I'm drinking water all day. I'm thinking I may have some deficiency or something because I've had cramping issues since I was a kid. It just gets worse when I lift.

[64509chvl]

I think I'm just going to hold myself at ~195lbs.


The food that's required for me to eat to continue gaining weight makes me feel way too full, sick and tired all day long. No thanks Jeff.

Plus I just hate eating. I look forward to no meals. I force down most of my meals. Literally just eating for function. Go figure that's why I was 150lbs 2 years ago.


Perma-recomp crew checking in.

I'm so freakin jellous dude...I can never get enough food, EVER! Prick

[lwevert]

I'm in the same boat. I'm never really hungry. My wife has to remind me to eat. If I don't count calories I'll never get in enough. It reminds to eat more to meet my macros.

I think I'm just going to hold myself at ~195lbs.


The food that's required for me to eat to continue gaining weight makes me feel way too full, sick and tired all day long. No thanks Jeff.

Plus I just hate eating. I look forward to no meals. I force down most of my meals. Literally just eating for function. Go figure that's why I was 150lbs 2 years ago.


Perma-recomp crew checking in.

[Joshyb90]

Hey kelei, just wondering what your thoughts are to whether your routine will yield as good 'size' gains compared to a typical 4-5day split or PPL etc.??

[MaNIaXC]

Hey kelei
During leg press my knees go outwards at the bottom of the movement ?
Is it alright or has to be dealt with ?

[Kelei]

Hey Kelei,

My parents are concerned about the supplements I take. I take Creatine, Beta-Alanine (love the tingles), NO Boosters, Purple Wraath and occassionally Caffeine. They say they want "expertise". I thought that maybe you could help me. Can you please help me? And if not, do you know anyone who could offer this? I already tried mailing Layne Norton twice, but I guess his inbox is always full...

Thanks!

Great routine btw, doing it for a month and seeing the best results yet...

Keep the creatine, drop everything else.

I have not started this routine yet but on my push/pull days, I do external rotations and flyes. But I'm not sure how much of them I should be doing.

I've never had an issue with water. I'm drinking water all day. I'm thinking I may have some deficiency or something because I've had cramping issues since I was a kid. It just gets worse when I lift.

A magnesium deficiency can cause cramps, your muscles use calcium to contract and magnesium to relax, the more active you are the more magnesium you require, this would explain why your cramping is worse when you train.

Take 3 of these per day:

http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Ch...4&sr=null&ic=1

Give it a few weeks to start working. Drinking milk before/during your workouts is also worth trying, the electrolytes can help prevent cramps.

You (or anyone else) can use my discount code and save 5-10 dollars off your first order from iherb (I buy all my supplements from there), you'll be doing me a favour as well, I receive a small amount of store credit when you puchase something so it'll save me some money on my orders. My code is LUK760

Hey Kelei...just a few questions.

1. I've been struggling with shoulder issues for a year on and off. Sometimes they feel great, sometimes they feel like ****. Then I strained my chest a few times and had other weird injuries. I put the blame on not stretching the way I should be. I usually only do warm-ups before my lifting routine, and about 10 min of static stretches after my workout is done. Would you say that's adequate to prevent injuries?

2. Any shoulder static stretches that you recommend or stay away from?

Have you seen my stretching routine? I think it'll help you, someone else linked it already in this thread I think.

Hey kelei
During leg press my knees go outwards at the bottom of the movement ?
Is it alright or has to be dealt with ?

I don't think it's anything to worry about.

[cgolkie]

Kelei,

Quick question for you. I've been on your routine since February and seen some really great gains from it. I've read the entire thread and I know you say strength fluctuations are normal and long-term strength is what matters. Well I'm currently stuck on 225 for bench press and have been for some time now. I use the same bar every time (thick bar) and my reps vary A LOT every workout.

For example two weeks ago my bench press first set of each workout was 5, 10, 8. Last week was 8, 10, 11. This week it has been 6 and 9. I was just wondering if that is normal to go from 5 to 11 and back down to 6. Thanks!

[ThatOneLurker]

You hate eating? Wow, talk about being deprived of one of the greatest joys in life.

i just look at it like a task, a chore


it's how I've always been

[klaximilian]

i just look at it like a task, a chore


it's how I've always been

I can respect that. I don't understand it, but I respect it...

I love food way too much. There's a fat kid living inside of me, luckily I haven't let him out yet.

[MichielN]

I don't think I would have any problem eating 4k+ kcals regularly

Whole milk, eggs, meat, butter, coconut oil, cashews, bread, oats, rice,

np jeff

[ctprelude]

Hey kelei, just wondering what your thoughts are to whether your routine will yield as good 'size' gains compared to a typical 4-5day split or PPL etc.??

Well this is Kelei's improved/revised routine compared to his old PPL, and is a hypertrophy routine, so yes it should. Increased frequency and the same volume is more effective than only hitting a muscle 1-2 times a week at the same amount of weekly volume.

[dojsygo]

Keep the creatine, drop everything else

Any reason why to drop the caffeine?

[doug222]

kelei, if i could pick your brain for a bit.. how would *you* gain mass with singles? is it possible? how many total reps would you do?

[litljay]

I'm so freakin jellous dude...I can never get enough food, EVER! Prick

I'm in the same boat. I'm never really hungry. My wife has to remind me to eat. If I don't count calories I'll never get in enough. It reminds to eat more to meet my macros.

Love to eat crew! Off to get a breakfast burrito.

[klaximilian]

Kelei, (or anyone else)

I've seemed to have overly developed my traps vs. my lats, it's quite obvious when looking in the mirror. I was thinking of adding additional lat work in. Would you suggest this, and if so what exercise? Lat pull downs?

[mytmous]

I've been gone for about 7 months focusing on cycling, which means I've lost about all my gains :-( I'm starting to get back into lifting again and of course, my go to plan now is Kelei's Intermediate/Advanced routine. I did the old routine for about 3 months the beginning of this year and made my best gains using that template. I'm hopeful to see the same results with the latest revision. Considering starting another log, but I'm not sure yet.

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I wanted to get some input on a new injury 2 weeks in. I think the injury came from cycling and is just being aggravated by lifting. The problem exists in my left knee and the pain radiates around the front of my knee below my kneecap. It almost feels like it's originating from inbetween the tibia and femur. I only seem to feel pain when doing hamstring exercises. Specifically, lying leg curls and when pulling my shoes off (holding the heel with the toe of the other foot). Not sure what this could be and if anyone can give any help on stretches or anything to help heal this up. I'm thinking lay off the lying curls and focus on RDLs until It's feeling better. No pain during squats or RDLs btw. Any suggestions?

[RGA8]

Kelei, (or anyone else)

I've seemed to have overly developed my traps vs. my lats, it's quite obvious when looking in the mirror. I was thinking of adding additional lat work in. Would you suggest this, and if so what exercise? Lat pull downs?

Instead of alternating between chin ups and pull ups you could just do both every day. Adding in new exercises won't hurt I guess but there is already a lot of variety for the lats hence my suggestion.

[klaximilian]

Instead of alternating between chin ups and pull ups you could just do both every day. Adding in new exercises won't hurt I guess but there is already a lot of variety for the lats hence my suggestion.

I thought about that as well. I don't know why, but I suck at pull-ups. I can only manage to do 15 lbs on top of my BW, where for chin-ups I can throw on 45-50 lbs and get to my 10 rep failure mark. I dunno...

I'd guess if he thought they were worth doing, he would have included Lat Pulldowns, so perhaps I shouldn't be adding those in.

[AccuraNSX]

Hi, since im not able to do slightly inclined bench press at my gym, im wondering what would be a more effective substitute slightly inclined dumbell press or clasic flat bench?

[ctprelude]

I thought about that as well. I don't know why, but I suck at pull-ups. I can only manage to do 15 lbs on top of my BW, where for chin-ups I can throw on 45-50 lbs and get to my 10 rep failure mark. I dunno...

I'd guess if he thought they were worth doing, he would have included Lat Pulldowns, so perhaps I shouldn't be adding those in.

That's pretty typical with a lot of people, since your biceps are involved much more doing chins vs pull-ups. When you're doing them going forward really try and focus on pulling yourself up with your back vs your arms. Wouldn't hurt to throw in using the lat pulldown machine either. It's what I use now exclusively, since pulls/chins started giving me bad tendonitis once I got up to the BW+60ish pound range.

[ThatOneLurker]

I thought about that as well. I don't know why, but I suck at pull-ups. I can only manage to do 15 lbs on top of my BW, where for chin-ups I can throw on 45-50 lbs and get to my 10 rep failure mark. I dunno...

I'd guess if he thought they were worth doing, he would have included Lat Pulldowns, so perhaps I shouldn't be adding those in.

Yeah I'm the same way with pull ups


45lbs + bw on chin ups

struggling hard with 25lbs + bw on pull ups

I can respect that. I don't understand it, but I respect it...

I love food way too much. There's a fat kid living inside of me, luckily I haven't let him out yet.

Lol nah I've always been skinny because I didn't care much for eating.


It's easily the only thing I hate about bodybuilding. Love training, hate eating.

My mother had to literally remind me before I went outside as a kid to eat but I'd grab an apple instead of a meal because I just never wanted to make time for food.