Intermediate/Advanced Routine - Revision 1

[64509chvl]

Thinking about starting this next week, how have everyones results from this been?

Everyone seemed to do great with the original program...some have stuck with the original & some have moved along with this revised version with more frequency & some tried revised but went back to the original !

I did the original for about 9 months & have been on the revised since Kelei posted it. I had good results with the original & great results with the revised. As of now I have no intension on moving on with anything else!

[VicRattlehead]

1. Just start my routine, if you can only train 3 times per week I recommend the following full body routine:

Flat bench press, chin-ups, front squats, RDL, chest-supported rows, side lateral raises, standing calf raises. Switch over to the proper routine ASAP.

Kelei, would this be ok to follow long term if I'm not interested in competition bodybuilding?

I've always been shooting for proportions/symmetry more like Bruce Lee or Stallone (a similar but larger version of Bruce). So for me, lats, pecs, delts and low bf seem to be the primary focus and arm work less important.

[Kelei]

Kelei, i had some lower back pain last 6 months and its not getting better, do you have any tips what i can do? i have been stretching my lower-back eod and always tried to have perfect for on front-squat and RDL. Now im thinking about dropping FS and RDL for some weeks \ months to see if it gets better (those exercises are really killer for the lower-back imo).

What exercises should i replace them with? my idea was to replace FS with leg-press and RDL with Hip-thrusts (but hip-thrusts is killer for the lower-back as well?)
My other alternative is to do 60 reps on Leg curls and Leg extensions? I will also probably add some ab-roller everyday to get some good ab-workout which i wont get free like i get from FS and RDL.


Another question
I tried to order the supplements you recommended from iherb but it seems like they cant deliver it to Sweden (my order got canceled) so im thinking about order it from a Swedish store instead.
But its really hard to follow your recommendation because its hard to find the good stuff.

Will this work:
- Copper (copper gluconate) 2 mg (everyday)
- Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) 5000 ui (everyday)
- Vitamin C (ascorbic) 1500 mg (everyday)
- Vitamin K1 (phylloquinone) 0,09 mg (everyday)
- Magnesium (magnesiumcitrat) 500 mg (everyday)
- Zink (zinkcitrat) 50 mg (eod)
- Omega-3 (EPA 360mg, DHA 240mg) (everyday)

What i cant find is Vitamin K2 and DHA tablets.
I have been trying to Google if how the uptake is on the different ingredients but it says different everywhere :/

Sorry for the long text and thank you for all the answers

Leg press and reverse hypers can replace front squats and RDL. I'm not sure which supplements and dosages are allowed in Sweden so there's no point me suggesting specific supplements but I recommend the following: desiccated liver tablets (good source of copper), vitamin D3, vitamin C, magnesium (must be amino acid chelated).

You don't need a zinc supplement if you eat plenty of red meat. You should be able to get enough vitamin K2 from animal food sources (meat, eggs, milk/cheese etc).

Kelei, would this be ok to follow long term if I'm not interested in competition bodybuilding?

I've always been shooting for proportions/symmetry more like Bruce Lee or Stallone (a similar but larger version of Bruce). So for me, lats, pecs, delts and low bf seem to be the primary focus and arm work less important.

Dips, chin-ups, weighted push-ups (or bench press), inverted rows (or chest-supported rows), front squats, RDL, side lateral raises.

[ga2arch]

I have improved my script to extract Questions and Answers from the thread, maybe it could be useful for someone.

dropbox.com/s/ey0kci99u2iyyxj/kelei-qa.txt <--- Q/A from the first routine thread
dropbox.com/s/nzyt52cnsc3xr02/kelei-qa-revision1.txt <--- Q/A from this thread

[SonnyKSac]

Some jackass hit me in a head on collision Friday night. Im fairly ok, my truck is beat up, and I do have some lower back and neck pain.

I dont want to stop working out though. What do you guys think, substitute squats and DLs with leg press and hypers..?

[klaximilian]

First week back in the gym since incorporating carbs back in the diet, while still on a cut. Not only can I hit 30x reps with ease, my lifts are going up again and I feel a hell of a lot better in the gym.

Kelei, you may have answered this already but is it OK to do dumbbell 15˚bench press instead of using the barbell?

[klaximilian]

Some jackass hit me in a head on collision Friday night. Im fairly ok, my truck is beat up, and I do have some lower back and neck pain.

I dont want to stop working out though. What do you guys think, substitute squats and DLs with leg press and hypers..?

Wait until you heal. This isn't some DOMS or anything, you have possibly a substantial injury. Get checked out by a doctor, then rest as suggested, or as much as you body needs. No need to injury yourself further over impatience. Just my $.02...

[peepeeban]

great thread

[Effrum]

First week back in the gym since incorporating carbs back in the diet, while still on a cut. Not only can I hit 30x reps with ease, my lifts are going up again and I feel a hell of a lot better in the gym.

Kelei, you may have answered this already but is it OK to do dumbbell 15˚bench press instead of using the barbell?

Nice, I wish I could still do 30 reps on my cut, there's just no way lol. I die after like 22. When I went to visit my family for the holidays and ate at around maintenance, I could easily get 25, but man I have to stick to ~20 now.

And yes, dumbbell bench press is fine, some people don't like the added effort of setting up the dumbbells for each set (myself included), but it's still perfectly acceptable.

[AccuraNSX]

Should I take deloads every 3 weeks if I dont feel like it (maybe make it every 4?)

[davo26]

Should I take deloads every 3 weeks if I dont feel like it (maybe make it every 4?)

no need to take a deload until your body tells you you need one.

[klaximilian]

Nice, I wish I could still do 30 reps on my cut, there's just no way lol. I die after like 22. When I went to visit my family for the holidays and ate at around maintenance, I could easily get 25, but man I have to stick to ~20 now.

And yes, dumbbell bench press is fine, some people don't like the added effort of setting up the dumbbells for each set (myself included), but it's still perfectly acceptable.

Thanks Eff. Yes, its a matter of preference I believe. I don't mind using the DBs, as I find I'm able to push myself harder on chest knowing that if I fail mid-rep....I'm not going to choke myself out with a barbell, LOL.

I don't work with spotters so perhaps it's for the best that I use DBs...

[KeleiIsAQT]

Kelei, was just wondering if you take advantage of your superior size and strength by doing any physical sports?

[ctprelude]

Yeah nothing wrong with dumbbells. I do flat bench with a barbell and incline bench with dumbbells. I do have to give myself slightly longer rest periods using dumbbells though, since I don't have a spotter either to help with getting that first rep in position and started off.

[nbeezly]

Exercise order isn't set in stone, go with whatever you prefer. I recommend a 3/1 week loading/deloading schedule, during a deload week you only perform your first set of each exercise.

Is the deload week absolutely critical / necessary? I have been using this revised version since it was posted and completely forgot about the deload week/period... Basically if i'm extremely sore i would give myself 1-2 days rest. And continue the 4-5-6 day/week (30RM) schedule.

As of this week, yesterday was my first time performing the deload routine so just a little insight would help, thanks.

[ThatOneLurker]

It's funny when you look at a Kelei routine vs a Dorian Yates routine

almost completely opposite in terms of volume and training philosophies


I'm interested in knowing why Dorian Yates' system worked for him.


edit: Hey Kelei is there any benefit to doing oyur first set with a 3RM and then rest pausing sets of 3 with your 10RM afterwards? Just a weird thought I had before. Your 3RM would already take you to failure.

[klaximilian]

Yeah nothing wrong with dumbbells. I do flat bench with a barbell and incline bench with dumbbells. I do have to give myself slightly longer rest periods using dumbbells though, since I don't have a spotter either to help with getting that first rep in position and started off.

Awwww....I don't have that problem. Now I feel like I'm not going heavy enough.

I usually don't have trouble getting DB's in place. I'm only repping the 80's X 10...I think I've maxed out at 100. I'd like to rep 100 by the end of summer.

[Effrum]

Is the deload week absolutely critical / necessary? I have been using this revised version since it was posted and completely forgot about the deload week/period... Basically if i'm extremely sore i would give myself 1-2 days rest. And continue the 4-5-6 day/week (30RM) schedule.

As of this week, yesterday was my first time performing the deload routine so just a little insight would help, thanks.

I don't know how "critical" it is to take a deload after 3 weeks, but I do know that taking a deload is good for your tendons. They don't adapt as quickly as your muscles do, and the high volume/frequency will wear them down without a deload to let them catch up.

That being said, I could be wrong, but I kinda doubt your tendons are just going to suddenly give out on you as a result of the high volume of this routine (hopefully at least, injuries do happen). Your body should tell you it needs a break if it really needs one.

[doug222]

kelei, what builds more muscle? 6 sets of 10.. (60 reps total)... or 25 sets of 3 (heavier weight, 75 total reps)

i think you said somewhere that the sets of 10 are much more effective?

[jrpl]

2. Cable curls and cable side lateral raises.

Follow up question on this. Can I also replace overhead extensions with One-Arm Cable Tricep Extension? If so, what's the best way to do it. Since there is already rope pressdown, maybe overhead triceps extensions will be fine then? Like moving your hand back and forth over your head?

I really like cable curls - no pain in my forearm at all and my biceps got worked. I was really surprised!

[Qxx]

I don't know how "critical" it is to take a deload after 3 weeks, but I do know that taking a deload is good for your tendons. They don't adapt as quickly as your muscles do, and the high volume/frequency will wear them down without a deload to let them catch up.

That being said, I could be wrong, but I kinda doubt your tendons are just going to suddenly give out on you as a result of the high volume of this routine (hopefully at least, injuries do happen). Your body should tell you it needs a break if it really needs one.

Your tendons won't wear out suddenly and certainly not without a warning since we're using a 10RM instead of a 1-3RM. But yes, your body will tell you if it's time for a deload. The more advanced you become, the more frequent you'll need them.

@Lurker, I don't see how starting with a 3RM would be beneficial. I refer to the theory of your body adapting to averages. My 0,02 currency.

[jrpl]

One more question. How do you guys deal with chest supported rows range of motion? All benches in my gym aren't that high. I cannot extend my arms fully as db already are at the floor. As I understand bench should be parallel to the ground (not 15 degrees or anything like that). So how do you work around this? If i don't fully extend my arms it feels kind of odd during exercise...

[MortalEngine]

I've suffered a lot with tendonitis whilst on this routine (the original and the revised) - in my elbows, my left knee and also my right foot. I see the chiropractor every week and he asked a couple of weeks ago if I was taking creatine. I worked out that all of my problems started around the time I started taking creatine, and after doing some research (just internet searching), although there seems to be no scientific evidence of a link between creatine and connective tissue issues, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from athletes and bodybuilders to say otherwise. I came off creatine 9 days ago and I've seen a big difference. The tendonitis in my elbows has almost disappeared (I was able to perform my first chinup in over 3 months today). I know a lot of us are suffering with tendon issues; if you're on creatine it may be an idea to come off it for a couple of weeks to see if it makes any difference. For the record I'm 34 and on the revised routine (30 reps), taking a deload every 3 weeks as prescribed. I know there's no science behind this, but it really does seem like creatine is causing tendon issues for me.

[davo26]

One more question. How do you guys deal with chest supported rows range of motion? All benches in my gym aren't that high. I cannot extend my arms fully as db already are at the floor. As I understand bench should be parallel to the ground (not 15 degrees or anything like that). So how do you work around this? If i don't fully extend my arms it feels kind of odd during exercise...

firstly, kelei has said its only the top part of the rom that matters, so dont worry too much about not being able to extend your arms fully. that being said......i jack my bench up a little :-) i have two bits of 4"X2" that i put under the end of the bench to raise it just enough. the % incline is minimal and it helps me get near full arm extnsion. if you look at the form vids ive uploaded in my log in the last couple of weeks, you can see what i mean.

[davo26]

I've suffered a lot with tendonitis whilst on this routine (the original and the revised) - in my elbows, my left knee and also my right foot. I see the chiropractor every week and he asked a couple of weeks ago if I was taking creatine. I worked out that all of my problems started around the time I started taking creatine, and after doing some research (just internet searching), although there seems to be no scientific evidence of a link between creatine and connective tissue issues, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from athletes and bodybuilders to say otherwise. I came off creatine 9 days ago and I've seen a big difference. The tendonitis in my elbows has almost disappeared (I was able to perform my first chinup in over 3 months today). I know a lot of us are suffering with tendon issues; if you're on creatine it may be an idea to come off it for a couple of weeks to see if it makes any difference. For the record I'm 34 and on the revised routine (30 reps), taking a deload every 3 weeks as prescribed. I know there's no science behind this, but it really does seem like creatine is causing tendon issues for me.

interesting. i too suffer a fair bit with tendonitis, and take creatine. be interested to hear keleis thoughts on this?

[MortalEngine]

My chiro is dead against creatine but as he admitted, it's difficult to find peer-reviewed evidence to support the link. He's an ex-pro rugby player and said that every time he took creatine he developed tendonitis.

[jrpl]

firstly, kelei has said its only the top part of the rom that matters, so dont worry too much about not being able to extend your arms fully. that being said......i jack my bench up a little :-) i have two bits of 4"X2" that i put under the end of the bench to raise it just enough. the % incline is minimal and it helps me get near full arm extnsion. if you look at the form vids ive uploaded in my log in the last couple of weeks, you can see what i mean.

Good to know. I just checked your vids and your ROM is much greater than mine. Im 188cm and my arms are rather long so with my shorter bench, range is really small so that's why i'm asking. maybe i will try to put some plates under the bench next time to have this one a bit greater thanks.


As for tendonitis vs creatine. that's really interesting. However for me, break from creatine and even working out didn't help a bit with tendonitis so it's really hard to say. Maybe thats becase I already had tendonitis developed and I was taking creatine in the time it happened for me...

[MortalEngine]

As for tendonitis vs creatine. that's really interesting. However for me, break from creatine and even working out didn't help a bit with tendonitis so it's really hard to say. Maybe thats becase I already had tendonitis developed and I was taking creatine in the time it happened for me...

Yes tendonitis is a real pain. What has worked quite well for me is ultrasound therapy with the chiropractor. Certain wavelengths apparently stimulate the tendons to repair themselves. I'm not sure of the science behind it but if you google ultrasound and tendonitis the results are interesting. It may be worth a try. As far as training, what helped with my elbows was reducing the weight on curls and working towards my 20rep max rather than the 10 prescribed on this routine. I felt the muscle working more, and less strain on my tendons. Also, not fully extending my arm: reducing the range of motion so that I only felt any real exertion in the muscle. Hope that helps a little.

[ThatOneLurker]

@Lurker, I don't see how starting with a 3RM would be beneficial. I refer to the theory of your body adapting to averages. My 0,02 currency.

Well you're still getting high effort reps from the start (Maximal effort method) but you're mitigating the fatigue that using a 10RM in your first set would grant you so you'd be able to get away with more rest pause sets after you drop down to your 10RM. At least that's what I was thinking.

[AD1984]

It's funny when you look at a Kelei routine vs a Dorian Yates routine

almost completely opposite in terms of volume and training philosophies


I'm interested in knowing why Dorian Yates' system worked for him.

He was on insulin. He also had the most injuries throughout his career.

Hey Kelei is there any benefit to doing oyur first set with a 3RM and then rest pausing sets of 3 with your 10RM afterwards? Just a weird thought I had before. Your 3RM would already take you to failure.

A 3RM is probably too heavy, I used to do 5-6RM, then when I couldn't get the weights up, I'd finish the total number of reps with next lower weight. Kind of like rest-pause pyramid training lol. From what I remember, Blade is a big proponent of a lower RM rest-pause training (or myo reps as he calls them).

I've suffered a lot with tendonitis whilst on this routine (the original and the revised) - in my elbows, my left knee and also my right foot. I see the chiropractor every week and he asked a couple of weeks ago if I was taking creatine. I worked out that all of my problems started around the time I started taking creatine, and after doing some research (just internet searching), although there seems to be no scientific evidence of a link between creatine and connective tissue issues, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from athletes and bodybuilders to say otherwise. I came off creatine 9 days ago and I've seen a big difference. The tendonitis in my elbows has almost disappeared (I was able to perform my first chinup in over 3 months today). I know a lot of us are suffering with tendon issues; if you're on creatine it may be an idea to come off it for a couple of weeks to see if it makes any difference. For the record I'm 34 and on the revised routine (30 reps), taking a deload every 3 weeks as prescribed. I know there's no science behind this, but it really does seem like creatine is causing tendon issues for me.

This is quite interesting, I'm going to try it. My creatine intake has been sporadic, I take it around 2-4 times a week now, but I'll drop it altogether to see if I notice a difference. Both my elbows have issues.