Intermediate/Advanced Routine - Revision 1

[ThatOneLurker]

He was on insulin. He also had the most injuries throughout his career.




A 3RM is probably too heavy, I used to do 5-6RM, then when I couldn't get the weights up, I'd finish the total number of reps with next lower weight. Kind of like rest-pause pyramid training lol. From what I remember, Blade is a big proponent of a lower RM rest-pause training (or myo reps as he calls them).



This is quite interesting, I'm going to try it. My creatine intake has been sporadic, I take it around 2-4 times a week now, but I'll drop it altogether to see if I notice a difference. Both my elbows have issues.

1) so what? With 1 set per exercise + the mass he achieved can't be all due to the insulin. Yeah I have heard about his injuries.

2) Hm thats an interesting concept lol. Rest pause pyramid training. Who's blade?


3) Yeah I'm going to drop the creatine for a while and see what happens as well.

[NewAgeMayan]

...is there any benefit to doing oyur first set with a 3RM and then rest pausing sets of 3 with your 10RM afterwards? Just a weird thought I had before. Your 3RM would already take you to failure.

There's 2 ways I could see this going, myself, and common to both would be this: doing 1 set of your 3rm is not going to have a significant impact on your subsequent 10rm fatigue/capacity. So, after doing 1 set of your 3rm:

1) You could likely then still hit, or get close to hitting, 10reps with your 10rm (depending on how much 'rest' time you get between the two). Why, then, do the initial 3rm set?

2) If you dont train to failure with your 10rm after the initial 3rm set but limit those sets to rest-pause'3s, its going to take you multiple sets of 3 to reach the necessary fatigue where you will actually be hitting failure (ie the first 8, say, sets of 3 will be relatively easy where you are not anywhere near approaching failure).

[ThatOneLurker]

There's 2 ways I could see this going, myself, and common to both would be this: doing 1 set of your 3rm is not going to have a significant impact on your subsequent 10rm fatigue/capacity. So, after doing 1 set of your 3rm:

1) You could likely then still hit, or get close to hitting, 10reps with your 10rm (depending on how much 'rest' time you get between the two). Why, then, do the initial 3rm set?

2) If you dont train to failure with your 10rm after the initial 3rm set but limit those sets to rest-pause'3s, its going to take you multiple sets of 3 to reach the necessary fatigue where you will actually be hitting failure (ie the first 8, say, sets of 3 will be relatively easy where you are not anywhere near approaching failure).

but this is what I'm saying

your initial set with a 3RM should take you to failure already and you should rest long enough to where you can only hit 3 rep sets with your 10RM


I have no idea where I'm going with this it wasjust a thought I had lol

[NewAgeMayan]

your initial set with a 3RM should take you to failure already and you should rest long enough to where you can only hit 3 rep sets with your 10RM

Sure, but even if you lifted your 10rm immediately after your 3rm set youd likely still get upwards of 8 reps. I just cant see your doing one set of your 3rm limiting you to 3 reps on your subsequent 10rm set.

There would surely be a physiological difference between repping to failure your 3rm, and repping to failure your 10rm (energy/glycogen/lactic/fatigue/etc). Im sure Kelei can give a much more eloquent and convincing analysis than I.

I have no idea where I'm going with this it wasjust a thought I had lol

Numerically it kind of makes sense (ie, the goal is to train with mini sets of 3, and if one lifts a 3rm then, again numerically, that is similiar to lifting your 10rm for 3 reps). But Im confident that the numbers alone dont tell the whole story (they leave out much of the crucial physiological factors).

[Cheesin]

1) so what? With 1 set per exercise + the mass he achieved can't be all due to the insulin. Yeah I have heard about his injuries.

2) Hm thats an interesting concept lol. Rest pause pyramid training. Who's blade?


3) Yeah I'm going to drop the creatine for a while and see what happens as well.

It's because there's no 1 way to train and see great results. Routines are all about efficiency and organizing training, so they should be a guide.

[jrpl]

It's funny when you look at a Kelei routine vs a Dorian Yates routine

almost completely opposite in terms of volume and training philosophies

I'm interested in knowing why Dorian Yates' system worked for him.

Because hard work, consistency and progress will always work. As long as you will work your ass off in the gym, it really not that big of a deal how you train as long as you do it toward your goals. Also you need to remember that top level bodybuilders are using drugs, it helps.

[Pelejuju]

Hey guys! So my goal this year is to do a figure competition, and i've been doing a lot of reading and research on training, supplements, as well as watching videos and anything fitness related. I've danced my whole life, and have been lifting on and off for about 4 years now so i'm very much aware of my body, form, mind/muscle connection, stretching ect. Currently I'm on a plan my ex gave me before I decided to compete, but i'm not sure it's enough to get me where I want to be physically, and seeing as he's not my ex, I can't ask him lol. I'm 5'7", 190lbs, I've always been bigger, I can hold a lot of muscle on my frame, but I have a lot of fat to lose as well. I"m doing HIIT cardio 3x a week as well as a 4 day split. I have a few questions:
1. Is this a good program to get me where I want to be for a competition? Are there any changes I should make being that I'm a woman? I"m not afraid of getting "bulky" (your guys's comments about you girls doing endless cardio cracks me up, have them google Paige Hathaway, Michele Lewin, Jessica Ceravalo, and Bella Falconi, super fit, curvy and just damn right sexy, and ALL of them lift heavy!)
2. What should my macros be, approx, if I want to gain muscle AND lose fat? I have a good idea, but wanted outside opinion (I know there's a lot of conflicting ideas about this, and a lot of people think you can't bulk and cut and the same time, but I want it all lol)
3. My back squats are at about 125 (although I know I could be pushing more), but how do I know an appropriate weight for my front squat?
4. I've been doing cardio before weights, for me I like it because i'm sufficiently warmed up before lifting, I've read so many things saying that it's good and so many saying it's bad, just wanted your guys opinion on it and why. Also there's been much discussion on here about not needing cardio with this program, I actually enjoy cardio but see why it's not needed. If I did still want to do cardio, should I split it up and do cardio in the am and weights pm, or cardio after the weights, which would be better and why.
5. There are so many supplements on the market, and everyone has a differing opinion, i've read about what Kelei takes, but what's wrong with a pre workout, BCAA's, thermo's. Also, should I take creatine, or is a whey isolate enough?
Sorry this is so long, but i'm still really new at this and have a ton of questions. I"ve done a fair amount of research on my own, but it would be nice to get some opinions of people who are living it as opposed to getting paid to rep a product or program. Also, I read through the entire post before posting so as not to be redundant. Thanks in advance, and any help would be much appreciated, Aloha

[reicherts78]

One more question. How do you guys deal with chest supported rows range of motion? All benches in my gym aren't that high. I cannot extend my arms fully as db already are at the floor. As I understand bench should be parallel to the ground (not 15 degrees or anything like that). So how do you work around this? If i don't fully extend my arms it feels kind of odd during exercise...

You could put some weight plates under each side of the bench to raise it up.

[jedema]

Can't answer this part

3. My back squats are at about 125 (although I know I could be pushing more), but how do I know an appropriate weight for my front squat?

Just try it and find out. Start lighter and see what you can manage with perfect form. As you become more comfortable with Front Squats then you can move up. The rule of thumb is if you can do 12 reps on the first set, then its too light. I personally would be careful for the first few weeks about adding weight. Form is critical.

4. I've been doing cardio before weights, for me I like it because i'm sufficiently warmed up before lifting, I've read so many things saying that it's good and so many saying it's bad, just wanted your guys opinion on it and why. Also there's been much discussion on here about not needing cardio with this program, I actually enjoy cardio but see why it's not needed. If I did still want to do cardio, should I split it up and do cardio in the am and weights pm, or cardio after the weights, which would be better and why.

Cardio eats into your Glycogyn stores which this routine relies heavily on. I personally have never found the need to do cardio and I'm about the same height and weight (different gender though). I prefer to control my weight by caloric control. I hate cardio.

5. There are so many supplements on the market, and everyone has a differing opinion, i've read about what Kelei takes, but what's wrong with a pre workout, BCAA's, thermo's. Also, should I take creatine, or is a whey isolate enough?

Protein is big, however if you can meet your daily requirements in Protein, then there is no reason to continue to consume protein. Creatine (100% Pure unflavored stuff) is highly recommended because to get enough creatine through food, you would have to eat close to a cow a day... or something like that.

The thing you have to know about Kelei and his supplement recommendations is that he is a big time naturalist and demands to know what he puts in his body... which is something that we all should do. When you look at a PWO there is always a couple of ingredients listed, and say 80% proprietary mix of random crap that you have no idea what it is. I used to take a PWO when I was getting up really early in the AM to lift to get me moving, but when I get back into the gym after I get my Surgeons blessing, I'm going to just stick to Coffee if I can. I don't like not knowing whats going into my body either...

[jedema]

Because hard work, consistency and progress will always work. As long as you will work your ass off in the gym, it really not that big of a deal how you train as long as you do it toward your goals. Also you need to remember that top level bodybuilders are using drugs, it helps.

I somewhat disagree. Yes working your ass off is a HUGE part of bodybuilding, but if bodybuilding is your goal, you don't want to be eating just everything that you can get your hands on. You want to eat clean while meeting your Macros. Regardless, it is also 95% genetics. Somebody like me will never be a heavyweight bodybuilder. I just don't have the genetics. If I had any desire of competition, it would probably have to be in a figure category. I will never be taller than 5'6 and that sort of limits my potential to put on mass while staying at a lower body fat %

[jrpl]

I somewhat disagree. Yes working your ass off is a HUGE part of bodybuilding, but if bodybuilding is your goal, you don't want to be eating just everything that you can get your hands on. You want to eat clean while meeting your Macros.

Well I haven't said anything about eating so not sure what part exactly you disagree on.

[Effrum]

1. Is this a good program to get me where I want to be for a competition? Are there any changes I should make being that I'm a woman?

Kelei has hinted in the past that there would probably be more exercise variety than is specifically listed in this routine for someone that is serious about competing, but that being said, this is still a great routine for building an impressive physique. At the very least, I know I've learned a lot just by reading through Kelei's principles, and applying those to any routine will help immensely.

2. What should my macros be, approx, if I want to gain muscle AND lose fat? I have a good idea, but wanted outside opinion (I know there's a lot of conflicting ideas about this, and a lot of people think you can't bulk and cut and the same time, but I want it all lol)

I'm afraid I couldn't really tell you specifically what you'd want your macros to be. As far as losing fat and gaining muscle - that depends on where you are right now in terms of bf%. Typically, to try to cut fat while also building strength you would just recomp. Eat at maintenance and your bf will slowly go down as your body composition improves. If your bf% is high, then even on a cut you should still be able to add some muscle while burning fat. I think your best bet is to get yourself into a routine that meets your maintenance calories, try it out for a few weeks to see how it goes, and adjust.

3. My back squats are at about 125 (although I know I could be pushing more), but how do I know an appropriate weight for my front squat?

I agree with Jedema here, just start off light to get the form and work your way up.

4. I've been doing cardio before weights, for me I like it because i'm sufficiently warmed up before lifting, I've read so many things saying that it's good and so many saying it's bad, just wanted your guys opinion on it and why. Also there's been much discussion on here about not needing cardio with this program, I actually enjoy cardio but see why it's not needed. If I did still want to do cardio, should I split it up and do cardio in the am and weights pm, or cardio after the weights, which would be better and why.

It's true all of us have different opinions on cardio with this routine, but the bottom line is - if you want to do cardio you're more than welcome to, you just need to make sure you eat enough calories to support both. It will be detrimental to your lifting if your glycogen stores are depleted as a result of the cardio workout. Just find what works best for you.

5. There are so many supplements on the market, and everyone has a differing opinion, i've read about what Kelei takes, but what's wrong with a pre workout, BCAA's, thermo's. Also, should I take creatine, or is a whey isolate enough?

Creatine is good because it encourages your muscles to absorb more water (and therefore appear larger/fuller). But this doesn't make it a necessity for building muscle, or for the routine to be effective. It just helps you look better .


Just thought I'd throw in my 0.02 for your questions. Welcome to the thread, and good luck reaching your goal!

[krysix]

Creatine is good because it encourages your muscles to absorb more water (and therefore appear larger/fuller). But this doesn't make it a necessity for building muscle, or for the routine to be effective. It just helps you look better .

That's not the main reason to use creatine.

[Effrum]

That's not the main reason to use creatine.

My bad, what did I miss?

[klaximilian]

My bad, what did I miss?

The performance benefits.

[AD1984]

Because hard work, consistency and progress will always work. As long as you will work your ass off in the gym, it really not that big of a deal how you train as long as you do it toward your goals. Also you need to remember that top level bodybuilders are using drugs, it helps.

Yeah, pretty much. Drugs make a huge difference in someone that's already training adequately.

Blade is an internet screen name for Borge ***erli. Here's a good read, Lurker: http://borge***erli.com/myo-reps-in-english/


Edit: Fck it, just google Blade and myo reps lol

[AD1984]

Hey guys! So my goal this year is to do a figure competition, and i've been doing a lot of reading and research on training, supplements, as well as watching videos and anything fitness related. I've danced my whole life, and have been lifting on and off for about 4 years now so i'm very much aware of my body, form, mind/muscle connection, stretching ect. Currently I'm on a plan my ex gave me before I decided to compete, but i'm not sure it's enough to get me where I want to be physically, and seeing as he's not my ex, I can't ask him lol.

When are you planning on competing? The time until the competition, assuming you already have the adequate muscle mass, will be spent mostly cutting. If you don't have enough muscle, you might want to postpone it until next year, and spend this year bulking or at least recomping. It all depends on what you start with, where you want to go, and how much time you have in between.

Actually, I just noticed that you're 30%BF as per your bodyspace, so it's probably not a good idea to bulk right now. Eat 2-300 calories under maintenance, keep training and see where you are in 4-5 months.

[AD1984]

I somewhat disagree. Yes working your ass off is a HUGE part of bodybuilding, but if bodybuilding is your goal, you don't want to be eating just everything that you can get your hands on. You want to eat clean while meeting your Macros.

Not necessarily. I have a friend who's been on TRT for the past 2 years for medical reasons. He's changed nothing in his eating or training habits, and in the past 2 years he's slowly recomped from an overweight olympic lifter to a lean, almost bodybuilder physique. I rarely see him these days and I'm always surprised when I do. Drugs do make a big difference, you can get away with a lot more, and still get results.

[koreem]

What's the optimal volume per exercise per week if you train 4 times a week?

[fabiomoser]

What's the optimal volume per exercise per week if you train 4 times a week?

at least 45 reps per exercise. if you do 45 it matches the weekly volume of 6 workouts at 30 reps.
you could also just do 50 total reps if you can handle it.

[Pelejuju]

When are you planning on competing? The time until the competition, assuming you already have the adequate muscle mass, will be spent mostly cutting. If you don't have enough muscle, you might want to postpone it until next year, and spend this year bulking or at least recomping. It all depends on what you start with, where you want to go, and how much time you have in between.

Actually, I just noticed that you're 30%BF as per your bodyspace, so it's probably not a good idea to bulk right now. Eat 2-300 calories under maintenance, keep training and see where you are in 4-5 months.

Not sure what my BF % is, I'm guessing I'm around there, not exactly sure what it is at the moment to be honest. I need to get that checked. I have a long way to go, there's 3 competitions here in Hawaii: April, June, and nov. I was wanting to do June but I think that might be too soon. I do really well on a no flour/no sugar "diet" and have been watching that for the past 2 months (minus the holidays) and lose weight fairly quickly on that type of regime. Because I do have so much fat to lose, I'm focusing on building muscle, eating enough calories/macros to support my training with a minor deficit, and I figure for now the fat loss will take care of itself. In a couple months, when down more weight, I can reassess and see where I'm at and if I need to add or take away some calories/macros. Please someone jump in and correct me if I'm wrong with this line if thinking. And thank you all for the information.

[Qxx]

Not sure what my BF % is, I'm guessing I'm around there, not exactly sure what it is at the moment to be honest. I need to get that checked. I have a long way to go, there's 3 competitions here in Hawaii: April, June, and nov. I was wanting to do June but I think that might be too soon. I do really well on a no flour/no sugar "diet" and have been watching that for the past 2 months (minus the holidays) and lose weight fairly quickly on that type of regime. Because I do have so much fat to lose, I'm focusing on building muscle, eating enough calories/macros to support my training with a minor deficit, and I figure for now the fat loss will take care of itself. In a couple months, when down more weight, I can reassess and see where I'm at and if I need to add or take away some calories/macros. Please someone jump in and correct me if I'm wrong with this line if thinking. And thank you all for the information.

I wouldn't try building muscle while dropping body fat, since you need a caloric surplus to build muscle. One step at a time...

[fabiomoser]

Not sure what my BF % is, I'm guessing I'm around there, not exactly sure what it is at the moment to be honest. I need to get that checked. I have a long way to go, there's 3 competitions here in Hawaii: April, June, and nov. I was wanting to do June but I think that might be too soon. I do really well on a no flour/no sugar "diet" and have been watching that for the past 2 months (minus the holidays) and lose weight fairly quickly on that type of regime. Because I do have so much fat to lose, I'm focusing on building muscle, eating enough calories/macros to support my training with a minor deficit, and I figure for now the fat loss will take care of itself. In a couple months, when down more weight, I can reassess and see where I'm at and if I need to add or take away some calories/macros. Please someone jump in and correct me if I'm wrong with this line if thinking. And thank you all for the information.

I wouldn't try building muscle while dropping body fat, since you need a caloric surplus to build muscle. One step at a time...

you will still be able to add lean mass while cutting bodyfat especially when you are at a high bodyfat%. however I would definitely focus on cutting the bodyfat% like Qxx mentioned. if you keep lifting hard and eat right you will drop the bf% and most likely add some lean muscle mass in the process as well. once you are at your desired bf% you can reassess your situation and either bulk or recomp.

[zeeshanbasit]

Hello Keile,

I followed your previous routine for about two months and noticed a great change. But I injured myself by over training and now I am having elbow tendonitis. I have done the MRI and the conclusion was "Signs of mild distal biceps brachii tendonitis." I can put more detail from the report if Keile you or anyone else having any related experience can suggest something. I have done the therapy, physio, electric and I've been giving it rest since but still I can't lift weight.

[Kelei]

Kelei, was just wondering if you take advantage of your superior size and strength by doing any physical sports?

No.

Is the deload week absolutely critical / necessary? I have been using this revised version since it was posted and completely forgot about the deload week/period... Basically if i'm extremely sore i would give myself 1-2 days rest. And continue the 4-5-6 day/week (30RM) schedule.

As of this week, yesterday was my first time performing the deload routine so just a little insight would help, thanks.

Deloading is always a good idea, it helps keep you mentally fresh and it reduces your risk of developing overuse injuries.

It's funny when you look at a Kelei routine vs a Dorian Yates routine

almost completely opposite in terms of volume and training philosophies


I'm interested in knowing why Dorian Yates' system worked for him.


edit: Hey Kelei is there any benefit to doing oyur first set with a 3RM and then rest pausing sets of 3 with your 10RM afterwards? Just a weird thought I had before. Your 3RM would already take you to failure.

It's pointless to compare professional bodybuilders, drugs change all the rules.

kelei, what builds more muscle? 6 sets of 10.. (60 reps total)... or 25 sets of 3 (heavier weight, 75 total reps)

i think you said somewhere that the sets of 10 are much more effective?

In the short term 25 sets of 3 will build muscle faster simply because the intensity/volume vastly overpowers 6 sets of 10, in the long term though 6 sets of 10 will eventually pull ahead.

It's not really a fair comparison, 25 sets vs 6 sets, a better comparison would be 10 x 3 vs 10 x 10.

Follow up question on this. Can I also replace overhead extensions with One-Arm Cable Tricep Extension? If so, what's the best way to do it. Since there is already rope pressdown, maybe overhead triceps extensions will be fine then? Like moving your hand back and forth over your head?

I really like cable curls - no pain in my forearm at all and my biceps got worked. I was really surprised!

Any overhead extension will do the job.

One more question. How do you guys deal with chest supported rows range of motion? All benches in my gym aren't that high. I cannot extend my arms fully as db already are at the floor. As I understand bench should be parallel to the ground (not 15 degrees or anything like that). So how do you work around this? If i don't fully extend my arms it feels kind of odd during exercise...

The bottom half of the ROM doesn't even matter.

[ctprelude]

I wouldn't try building muscle while dropping body fat, since you need a caloric surplus to build muscle. One step at a time...

Completely depends on the individual and what stage of training they are in. For a beginner with a high body fat, gaining strength and lean body mass while losing body fat is something most anyone should be able to do. Now if you're in a more advanced stage, it will be tougher to maintain strength while cutting. Depends on the severity of the calorie deficit too.

[Kelei]

In regards to tendonitis 99% of the time it's caused by performing an exercise that simply doesn't agree with you, we're all built differently and an exercise that agrees with me might not agreee with you and vice versa.

It's your responsibility to indentify problem exercises and either:

- Alter your form and see if the issue resolves itself
- Substitute the exercise entirely if form alterations have no effect

That's really all there is to it.

[ctprelude]

The amount of weight has seemed to factor in on what lifts don't cause me tendonitis in my elbow or forearm. I loved doing weighted chins/pull-ups until I got to BW+60lbs and then it just destroyed my elbows. Now use the lat pull down and have been ok on that so far, although I've almost maxed it out, so not sure what I'll move to then. Tricep pressdowns with the V bar were great for me, but after moving up weight are starting to cause some discomfort. Not a huge deal substituting other exercises, I'm just hoping I'm able to stick with them and not run out of exercises for a particular muscle group.

[Pelejuju]

Much mahalo to you guys. Honestly I was a little intimidated to post here at first, I didn't want to sound stupid or have you guys blow me off (although I've got a pretty thick skin and could probably take it) but you guys have been really helpful. I'll post stats and progress pics as they come along. Super glad I found this thread.

[JAnderson10]

Okay I got a few questions for you Kelei.

1. I kind of want to make my own preworkout. I know you do not advise preworkouts, and I only want ingredients that are going to be worth it so I am asking your or anybody else who is more knowledgeable then me. Even if the effect is partially placebo I still like the idea of a preworkout to get me in the zone. I might sound really stupid too. Im thinking about Agmatine at least as I like its effects and have heard good things about it.

2. Secondly I am going to switch my multivitamin and was going to ask your opinion. My diet is mainly IIFYM, so I dont know if I should switch to Ortho Core or follow your guidelines for vitamins. I am on Orange Triad right now, but I want whatever is better.

Thanks in advance to anyone who helps out!