Corydalis racemosa (THP)

[BiggJohn]

Recently came across some information regarding Corydalis Racemosa (THP). I'm not sure how much people where taking to cause these issues and all the specifics in these cases. Would be good to have a few others look at the information and have a discussion regarding safety and proper usage. I am currently taking it with YN but haven't noticed any adverse reactions.




The active ingredient dl-tetrahydropalmatine (THP) isolated from the traditional Chinese herb Corydalis racemosa has been found to have antihypertensive effects. However, severe cardiac and neurological toxic effects were reported from using this herb

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1071652

Results: Acute hepatitis occurred after a mean of 20 weeks (range, 7 to 52 weeks) of Jin Bu Huan ingestion and resolved in six patients within a mean of 8 weeks (range, 2 to 30 weeks); another patient is currently improving. Hepatitis was associated with symptoms of fever, fatigue, nausea, pruritus, and abdominal pain and with signs of jaundice and hepatomegaly. Biopsy specimens showed that one patient had hepatitis with eosinophils (consistent with a drug reaction) and the other had mild hepatitis, moderate fibrosis, and microvesicular steatosis. Decreasing the Jin Bu Huan dose in one patient improved liver test results. Reusing Jin Bu Huan in two other patients caused abrupt recrudescence of hepatitis.

Conclusion: Jin Bu Huan can cause liver injury. Although the hepatotoxic mechanisms are not defined, they may include hypersensitive or idiosyncratic reactions or direct toxicity to active metabolites. Hepatotoxicity caused by herbal products underscores the importance of national surveillance programs and quality control of the manufacture of these products.

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/121/10/729

Unsupervised consumption of tetrahydropalmatine can lead to central nervous system depression and liver damage.

http://www.moh.gov.sg/corp/about/new...do?id=30244884

Use of products containing THP has repeatedly been associated with severe and potentially fatal liver injury.11-16

11. McRae CA, Agarwal K, Mutimer D et al. Hepatitis associated with Chinese herbs. Eur J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2002;14:559–62.

12. Stickel F, Egerer G, Seitz HK. Hepatotoxicity of botanicals. Public Health Nutr. 2000;3:113–24.

13. Picciotto A, Campo N, Brizzolara R, et al. Chronic hepatitis induced by Jin Bu Huan. J Hepatol. 1998;28:165–7.

14. Horowitz RS, Feldhaus K, Dart RC, et al. The clinical spectrum of Jin Bu Huan toxicity. Arch Intern Med. 1996;156:899–903.

15. Kaptchuk TJ. Acute hepatitis associated with Jin Bu Huan. Ann Intern Med. 1995;122:636.

16. Woolf GM, Petrovic LM, Rojter SE, et al. Acute hepatitis associated with the Chinese herbal product Jin Bu Huan. Ann Intern Med. 1994;121:729–35

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetCo...hunkiid=104681

In many instances, herbal hepatotoxins are thought to cause a hypersensitivity or idiosyncratic reaction. This appears to be true of L-tetrahydropalmatine. Seven cases of hepatitis have been reported in adults who used jin bu huan.[5] Liver disease occurred after a mean duration of use of 20 weeks (range, 7-52 weeks). Six of the 7 patients showed complete resolution of symptoms within 8 weeks. Two patients had a recrudescence of symptoms with re-exposure to the herb.

http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/pariiherandh.html

More recently, in 1998, California’s Department of Health Services issued a warning to consumers not to use a Chinese medicine called An Shu Ling because it contains levo-tetrahydropalmatine, an ingredient that can cause chemical- induced hepatitis. An Alameda County woman was diagnosed with chemical-induced hepatitis in late May 1998 after using the product for insomnia.

Retailers, distributors and acupuncturists were also told not to sell or provide An Shu Ling to their customers. In addition to hepatitis, levo- tetrahydropalmatine is associated with respiratory depression, slowing of the heart, sedation and fatigue

http://medcomres.com/articles/bewild..._medicines.htm

In a study where monkeys were given internally by feeding dI-tetrahydropalmatine 85 mg or 110 mg/kg or by under skin injection of 80mg/kg did not show any toxic reaction. It only showed sedation and hypnotic condition. After 2 weeks of continuous application the hearts and kidneys showed slightly swollen and fuzzy.

Long term usage can be toxic to the heart and kidneys.

http://alternativehealing.org/yan_hu_suo.htm

There have been several reports in Western journals of THP toxicity, including acute hepatitis.16 17 18 In addition, people taking corydalis can experience vertigo, fatigue, and nausea.19

16. Horowitz RS, Feldhaus K, Dart RC, et al. The clinical spectrum of Jin Bu Huan toxicity. Arch Int Med 1996;156:899–903.

17. Kaptchuk TJ, Woolf GM, Vierling JM. Acute hepatitis associated with Jin Bu Huan. Ann Int Med 1995;122:636.

18. Anonymous. Jin Bu Huan toxicity in adults—Los Angeles, 1993. JAMA 1994;271:423–4.

19. Chang HM, But PPH. Pharmacology and Applications of Chinese Materia Medica vol 1. Singapore: World Scientific Inc., 1986, 521.

[Doughboy]

Good find BJ.

[pu12en12g]

Thanks for your concern BiggJohn,

Simply put, corydalis yanhusou (specifically) has been used safely for hundreds of years. Do not exceed the recommended dose and do NOT take it with other medication. Many people got in trouble when they started mixing and matching their prescription and OTC meds with potent chinese products like corydalis yanhusou.

It's a powerful ingredient and isn't for everyone.


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[Nailbomb9]

What products have this in it??

[Doughboy]

What products have this in it??

Yellow Neuphoria

[pu12en12g]

What products have this in it??

Venom Lean Dreams
Yellow nEuphoria

[BiggJohn]

Thanks for your concern BiggJohn,

Simply put, corydalis yanhusou (specifically) has been used safely for hundreds of years. Do not exceed the recommended dose and do NOT take it with other medication. Many people got in trouble when they started mixing and matching their prescription and OTC meds with potent chinese products like corydalis yanhusou.

It's a powerful ingredient and isn't for everyone.

That's what I was thinking. Sort of along the same lines of thinking as Ma Huang. If you educate yourself about it and take it responsibly, it is a good supplement.

[pu12en12g]

That's what I was thinking. Sort of along the same lines of thinking as Ma Huang. If you educate yourself about it and take it responsibly, it is a good supplement.

Good example... there will always be those that are convinced that ephedra (in and of itself) is dangerous, and there are those that realize that it's the misuse or abuse of the product that's actually dangerous.

More on corydalis:

Based on the available laboratory and clinical reports from China,(8) the dosage ratio between a potentially fatal amount (about 150 mg/kg by injection and probably in excess of 200 mg/kg orally or intragastrically in small animals) and a clinically effective amount (in humans) is 50:1 or better. A fifty-fold difference between therapeutic and poisonous levels is more characteristic of foods than modern drugs. (For example, even coffee is more toxic -- because of its caffeine content -- than corydalis or THP). However, an infant or young child who swallowed pills of JBH could obtain an intermediate dose that would be potentially dangerous, as has been shown by experience. The product is currently packed in individual vials of 12 tablets; a 25-pound child consuming all 12 tablets could get more than 20 times the normal "therapeutic" level. The vials are not child-proof. ITM has received several informal reports of adults consuming 12 to 24 tablets of JBH through misunderstanding of the instructions for use.

[BiggJohn]

Venom Lean Dreams

Do you know which compound(s) contain THP in Lean Dreams? Baicalin?

[pu12en12g]

Do you know which compound(s) contain THP in Lean Dreams? Baicalin?

Rotundine

[BiggJohn]

Rotundine

I haven't used the Lean dreams product, but I would be concerned using this everyday. YN isn't really meant for everyday use. Maybe 1-2 times per week, depending on your situation.

[pu12en12g]

I haven't used the Lean dreams product, but I would be concerned using this everyday. YN isn't really meant for everyday use. Maybe 1-2 times per week, depending on your situation.

2-3 months of continuous daily use wouldn't be the best idea... much MORE importantly, it's totally optional (like chocolate ).... but seriously nEuphoria will work best for the educated consumer that understands endorphins and only takes it when they really need a boost (designed for occasional use).

It's not for everyone.

[snowborder]

I see what you guys are saying but it looks pretty black and white to me. It is kind of like being pregnent. You can't just be a little bit pregenent. You are either pregnent or your not. As is the case with this it appears you either take it and have possible negative sides or you don't take it. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[1london]

Thanks for brining this up BJ. I was thinking of purchasing some of this product but it looks like I will rethink that. I don't want to take anything that will cause any type of liver damage. Sounds like some thing a Methlayted steriod would do.

[lancerevo]

liver damage kidney damage hepatitis I sure am glad someone exposed this. It sounds like some dangerous junk. It will NOT be in my body you can count on that.

[snowborder]

liver damage kidney damage hepatitis I sure am glad someone exposed this. It sounds like some dangerous junk. It will NOT be in my body you can count on that.

My thoughts exactly. Why would anyone take this let alone put it in a supplement?

[downwitit]

liver damage kidney damage hepatitis I sure am glad someone exposed this. It sounds like some dangerous junk. It will NOT be in my body you can count on that.

You for got heart damage as well I concur that this is a toxic substance. Even if you just take it ever once in awhile you still are going to get some liver and kidney damage.

[CONTROLLED LABS]

you are forgetting this was on those that were overdosing and using other drugs:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=31

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content-nw/full/45/2/229/T1

the toxic effects were in 9 people over a long period of time (none of them died, except one that was a suicide attempt and was on many other drugs, and all recovered). they used huge amounts of sleeping pills with THP in them as well as a plethora of other drugs in some cases. see that link from the study above. they also had chronic use of the products. YN is not for chronic use, has a much lower dosage than they took and people will hopefully not swallow 14-75 pills at a time like they did in this study.

[CONTROLLED LABS]

I see what you guys are saying but it looks pretty black and white to me. It is kind of like being pregnent. You can't just be a little bit pregenent. You are either pregnent or your not. As is the case with this it appears you either take it and have possible negative sides or you don't take it. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

that is incorrect. anything is poisonous in a certain dose, even water. you use a product correctly and it is safe, use it incorrectly it is unsafe. many supplements are this way.

[crazymutha]

you are forgetting this was on those that were overdosing and using other drugs:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=31

agreed.

[pu12en12g]

YN is not for chronic use, has a much lower dosage than they took and people will hopefully not swallow 14-75 pills at a time like they did in this study.

Exactly... in almost all cases of side effects, the people were taking KNOCK OUT dosages to kill pain and literally knock them out.... basically using it instead of morphine.

[DaBigOx]

pu12en12g,

Are there any supps on BB.com that would no mix well with YN?

I just picked up a bottle and I am a little concerned about interaction with my other supps.

[marcmathews]

That's what I was thinking. Sort of along the same lines of thinking as Ma Huang. If you educate yourself about it and take it responsibly, it is a good supplement.

The only problem with that statement is the fact that Ma Huang doesn't cause liver damage.

[BiggJohn]

The only problem with that statement is the fact that Ma Huang doesn't cause liver damage.

No, but Ma Huang may cause heart failure if you take to much.

[pu12en12g]

pu12en12g,

Are there any supps on BB.com that would no mix well with YN?

Yes. We don't recommend stacking it with Ephedra / Ephedrine or Yohimbe / Yohimbine. Stacking it with too much caffeine / some stimulants may cause paranoia or dizziness.. specific questions on your stack / combo feel free to shoot me a email:

pt@controlledlabs.com

[HalleluYAH]

Recently came across some information regarding Corydalis Racemosa (THP).

I just made a fairly comprehensive post on this in my YN log...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...9#post13068009

[boomslang]

[QUOTE=BiggJohn;13212050]
Use of products containing THP has repeatedly been associated with severe and potentially fatal liver injury.11-16

11. McRae CA, Agarwal K, Mutimer D et al. Hepatitis associated with Chinese herbs. Eur J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2002;14:559–62.

12. Stickel F, Egerer G, Seitz HK. Hepatotoxicity of botanicals. Public Health Nutr. 2000;3:113–24.

13. Picciotto A, Campo N, Brizzolara R, et al. Chronic hepatitis induced by Jin Bu Huan. J Hepatol. 1998;28:165–7.

14. Horowitz RS, Feldhaus K, Dart RC, et al. The clinical spectrum of Jin Bu Huan toxicity. Arch Intern Med. 1996;156:899–903.

15. Kaptchuk TJ. Acute hepatitis associated with Jin Bu Huan. Ann Intern Med. 1995;122:636.

16. Woolf GM, Petrovic LM, Rojter SE, et al. Acute hepatitis associated with the Chinese herbal product Jin Bu Huan. Ann Intern Med. 1994;121:729–35

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetCo...hunkiid=104681

I see no evidence that says how much of the compound they were taking so how can we know that they were taking so called Knock Out dosages.

[HalleluYAH]

I see what you guys are saying but it looks pretty black and white to me. It is kind of like being pregnent. You can't just be a little bit pregenent. You are either pregnent or your not. As is the case with this it appears you either take it and have possible negative sides or you don't take it. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

When speaking about toxicity, there are many factors involved when deciding how dangerous a substance is. Supplementing with too much of anything, and toxicity is likely. The idea is determing what this threshold is for a given substance, and staying well below this.

[BiggJohn]

I just made a fairly comprehensive post on this in my YN log...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...9&postcount=12

You are certainly one person I would want in this discussion.

[HalleluYAH]

I see no evidence that says how much of the compound they were taking so how can we know that they were taking so called Knock Out dosages.

Here is the patient dosing information referred to in the study which associated Jin Bu Huan with Acute Hepatitis...

Patient 1

A 66-year-old woman presented to her physician with symptoms of fever, nausea, and fatigue for 5 weeks. She was anicteric with a palpable, nontender liver. Stigmata indicating chronic liver disease were absent. She had taken 2 tablets of Jin Bu Huan at night, 2 to 3 times a week for the previous 3 months, for back pain and insomnia

Patient 2

She had taken 4 tablets of Jin Bu Huan at night for insomnia, 4 times a week for the previous 2 months. She stopped taking Jin Bu Huan 1 week after the onset of symptoms. She had used an oral contraceptive pill daily for the previous 8 years. No other medical illness was present

Patient 3

A 45-year-old woman, a friend of patient 2, presented to her physician with symptoms of nausea, anorexia, fatigue, pruritus, and right upper quadrant abdominal pain. Physical examination showed tender hepatomegaly. Stigmata indicating chronic liver disease were absent. She had taken 4 tablets of Jin Bu Huan at night for insomnia, 3 to 4 times a week for the previous 12 weeks. During the previous 6 months, she had intermittently used another Chinese herbal product, Ma Huang (active ingredients are ephedrine and pseudoephedrine), without adverse effects. She had used no other medications and had no medical illness. She stopped taking both herbal products because of her illness.

Patient 4

A 48-year-old woman residing in Hawaii presented to her physician with fatigue and a temperature of 40.6 °C. The physical examination was normal, and stigmata indicating chronic liver disease were absent. She had taken 3 tablets of Jin Bu Huan nightly for 7 weeks for insomnia.

Patient 5

A 46-year-old man presented to his physician with a temperature of 40.6 °C, headaches, fatigue, and tender hepatomegaly. Stigmata indicating chronic liver disease were absent. He had taken 3 tablets of Jin Bu Huan for insomnia, 3 times a week intermittently for 6 months

Patient 6

31-year-old woman presented to her physician with nausea, vomiting, malaise, and deep jaundice. The physical examination was normal, and stigmata indicating chronic liver disease were absent. She had taken 6 tablets of Jin Bu Huan for insomnia, 4 to 6 times a week intermittently for 10 months and then nightly for 8 weeks

Patient 7

A 53-year old woman residing in Toronto, Canada, presented to her physician with symptoms of fatigue and headaches. Physical examination showed hepatomegaly, but stigmata indicating chronic liver disease were absent. For the previous 3 years, she had taken 1 to 3 tablets of Jin Bu Huan nightly for arthralgias and insomnia.

All this said, I have yet to determine exactly how many mg of THP are in each Jin Bu Huan tablet.