Newbie abs question: Cut body fat or build muscle?

[MagneticPerson]

I'm roughly 6' tall and 145 lbs and I guestimate I'm around 10-12% bodyfat (I'm male by the way). I've always been skinny, but I am comfortable with that - kind of like it actually - but I want six pack abs and a toned body. I'm looking to get to around 7-8% bodyfat and build a little muscle. I'm stuck on some things in my research though:

To do this do I need to "bulk up" or "slim down"? (slim down meaning cut body fat - not going anorexic)
I'm really confused as to whether or not I need to increase calories or decrease them. I have a high metabolism so I eat and get hungry often. I've been tracking my diet on a website and I'm getting confused as to what I actually need to be doing...

I'm eating healthier than I ever have in my life and I've recently gotten back into working out. However, since I'm broke I am not going to a gym so I'm not doing any weight training. I'm doing HIIT and basic stuff like pushups which I think is a good start considering I haven't exercised in ages.

my confusion mostly comes from this: I was having trouble calculating my "ideal body weight" and my "lean body mass" which is evidently 138ish and 128ish lbs respectively.

138 seems WAY low. Another thing I read was that I should probably be around 155. I've never hit 150 though even eating junk food and being lazy.

I calculated the 138 from this site here: builtlean.com ideal body weight (I wasnt' allowed to post the url... :/ )
This is the exact same page that says 155 is ideal. Maybe the article was written for bigger guys trying to slim down but it doesn't specify.
Coincidentally the BMI calculator on that page says that 138 is still an acceptable (though in the low range) for my height.

tl;dr
I'm skinny (10-12% body fat) and want abs(8%ish body fat). Do I need to cut on the last few % body fat or do I need to build muscle??


*I realize this is a bodybuilding forum but I have no interest in becoming a bulked up meat head. I'd rather have a Brad Pitt from fight club body than an Arnold Schwarzenegger Mr. Universe body. Please keep this in mind if you choose to give advice!

[SuffolkPunch]

With your stats you should build muscle. Don't overly rely on calculators, use them to work out your min. daily intake of protein and fats. Work out your maintenance calorie level based on trial and error. Pick a sensible starting point and slowly raise it until you are gaining 2-3lbs a month.

Abs will have to wait until you have something to cut down to. If you try now, you will probably look like an Auschwitz survivor.

[PopeGregorius]

I agree. At 145 pounds you don't want to wake up after a few days training and a trim-and-slim shake and find you are Schwarzenegger.

This site is not for you then. To get toned I suggest you subscribe to http://goo.gl/p58og1

[ironwill2008]

*I realize this is a bodybuilding forum but I have no interest in becoming a bulked up meat head. I'd rather have a Brad Pitt from fight club body than an Arnold Schwarzenegger Mr. Universe body. Please keep this in mind if you choose to give advice!

I'm just one of your 'meat heads,' so I'll choose to pass on the advices.


HTH

[MagneticPerson]

With your stats you should build muscle. Don't overly rely on calculators, use them to work out your min. daily intake of protein and fats. Work out your maintenance calorie level based on trial and error. Pick a sensible starting point and slowly raise it until you are gaining 2-3lbs a month.

Abs will have to wait until you have something to cut down to. If you try now, you will probably look like an Auschwitz survivor.

Thanks for actually answering with real advice. I appreciate it.

What do you mean by "have something to cut down to"? As the title says I'm very much a newbie and not into the weightlifting culture so I don't know all the lingo or science behind it.

I've been doing some of the "Insanity" workout. I can tell there are abs there but only when I flex my stomach as the small amount of body fat that I have is all located on my gut. It isn't like I play video games and drink mountain dew all day and can't do a pushup but I will admit that I'm starting from the very bottom and don't really know what I'm doing.

[MagneticPerson]

I'm just one of your 'meat heads,' so I'll choose to pass on the advices.


HTH

Didn't mean to offend. If you have advice about getting "ripped" while staying lean rather than bulky I'd love to hear it. Nothing wrong with bulk but it isn't what I'm looking for personally.

[Mainer215]

Didn't mean to offend. If you have advice about getting "ripped" while staying lean rather than bulky I'd love to hear it. Nothing wrong with bulk but it isn't what I'm looking for personally.

You are not going to turn into Arnold especially in the time frame that you mentioned. At 6 feet tall I feel that you are underweight, that is my opinion and is not meant to offend. I am 5' 10" and when I hit 160 ten years ago I looked scrawny but I had a very low bodyfat percentage. I did not have true abs either because they were not big enough to really show.

IMHO you need to build some muscle through lifting weights. Find a way to obtain a basic weight set with a bench and get started on a basic beginners routine. I personally recommend AllPro's simple beginners routine which is stickied above. I gaurentee that you will not become Arnold but you will add some LBM to your frame which will make you look considerably better even at 10-12% bodyfat.

[SuffolkPunch]

Thanks for actually answering with real advice. I appreciate it.

What do you mean by "have something to cut down to"? As the title says I'm very much a newbie and not into the weightlifting culture so I don't know all the lingo or science behind it.

I've been doing some of the "Insanity" workout. I can tell there are abs there but only when I flex my stomach as the small amount of body fat that I have is all located on my gut. It isn't like I play video games and drink mountain dew all day and can't do a pushup but I will admit that I'm starting from the very bottom and don't really know what I'm doing.

You need to build some muscle so that your body is OK about dropping bodyfat and so that you look defined when you lose the bodyfat. If you lose weight when your muscles are not sufficiently developed, you just look small and your muscle size may not be enough to provide any visible definition - plus your bodys hormones react agains the weight loss and try to make you put it back on again but downregulating you metabolism and making you feel constantly hungry.

[Ahri22]

I'm not an expert, but what I DO know is that it's HARD to get bulky. Like... really hard! Especially for someone who's naturally skinny. If you want to look good and have lean muscle, you need to build muscle full stop!! If you try and lose fat without much muscle, you're just going to look scrawny...

If you were to do some decent bulking and put on a good few pounds of muscle, you could then cut down to a lower body fat % and look a lot better. BUT you'll need to work out with some heavy weights, for some months (if not longer) to put on that muscle.

You're not going to build the necessary muscle unless you start lifting some heavy weights, either. As I said, building muscle is not easy!! You won't just magically lift a few heavy weights and bulk up... it takes months to gain a few pounds of muscle, especially if you're a hardgainer.

Of course, this means you're going to take longer to get that lean and toned look that you want... it would be much simpler if you could just melt away that extra body fat, but I don't think that will give you the look you actually want, which requires some more serious muscle first.

(And yes, I know I'm small, and female and new to the forum, but there's some stuff I do know ). Getting too bulky is the least of your worries!

[jmcq]

I once heard the phrase "abs on a skinny guy is like bit tits on a fat chick: it doesn't count".

Put on some muscle first. You're not going to look like Arnold unless you plan in putting in years of hard work and eating. That being said, everyone can benefit from heavy lifting.

You need to eat to gain muscle. You can train with the heaviest weights imaginable for you and if you're not eating a caloric surplus you will NEVER look like a "bulked up meathead".

So, here's my advice: eat "clean" I.e. no more than 10-15% caloric surplus (to ensure you don't gain unnecessary fat). Eat 1g of protein per pound of lean body mass. Track your m-f-ing calories every day. Put yourself on a noob barbell based routine (Starting Strength, strong lifts, allpro, ice cream fitness etc.). Keep this up for as long as you can. Then recalculate your calories (you'll weigh more and be more muscular) and now eat a t a 10% deficit until you reach your goal bf %.

Before you say: "I don't want to be strong or a bodybuilder". The simple fact of the matter is for untrained natural lifters compound barbell exercises are the most efficient way to build muscle. Simply put, because these lifts recruit a large number of muscles you are able to move more wight and progress faster. This means each individual muscle is under more weight than it could move by itself. This promotes muscle growth. If you're not eating like a beast for 3 years and working hard you're not going to look massive so don't worry about that.

Anyway just my 2 cents.

[MagneticPerson]

You are not going to turn into Arnold especially in the time frame that you mentioned. At 6 feet tall I feel that you are underweight, that is my opinion and is not meant to offend. I am 5' 10" and when I hit 160 ten years ago I looked scrawny but I had a very low bodyfat percentage. I did not have true abs either because they were not big enough to really show.

IMHO you need to build some muscle through lifting weights. Find a way to obtain a basic weight set with a bench and get started on a basic beginners routine. I personally recommend AllPro's simple beginners routine which is stickied above. I gaurentee that you will not become Arnold but you will add some LBM to your frame which will make you look considerably better even at 10-12% bodyfat.

For the record I never mentioned a time frame for accomplishing this, but I DO realize with my frame I wouldn't get "Arnold-bulky" even if I tried. That was more of a disclaimer to try to keep the advice simple and aimed at someone already lean rather than getting advice that was super advanced/complex.

I take no offense. That's just opinion and it is completely subjective as I am at a healthy BMI. Being American I'm used to hearing that. Our culture promotes bigger=better at least among men. I look healthy and attractive - just a skinny version of both those things.

The more research I do you are completely right about the building muscle thing though. I did an online tape-measure bodyfat calculation which says I'm at 8.5%. I know that isn't 100% accurate and this site calculates that I'm at 12.3%. Thanks for the advice, I appreciate and I'll have to look into your recommendation.

I once heard the phrase "abs on a skinny guy is like bit tits on a fat chick: it doesn't count".

Put on some muscle first. You're not going to look like Arnold unless you plan in putting in years of hard work and eating. That being said, everyone can benefit from heavy lifting.

You need to eat to gain muscle. You can train with the heaviest weights imaginable for you and if you're not eating a caloric surplus you will NEVER look like a "bulked up meathead".

So, here's my advice: eat "clean" I.e. no more than 10-15% caloric surplus (to ensure you don't gain unnecessary fat). Eat 1g of protein per pound of lean body mass. Track your m-f-ing calories every day. Put yourself on a noob barbell based routine (Starting Strength, strong lifts, allpro, ice cream fitness etc.). Keep this up for as long as you can. Then recalculate your calories (you'll weigh more and be more muscular) and now eat a t a 10% deficit until you reach your goal bf %.

Before you say: "I don't want to be strong or a bodybuilder". The simple fact of the matter is for untrained natural lifters compound barbell exercises are the most efficient way to build muscle. Simply put, because these lifts recruit a large number of muscles you are able to move more wight and progress faster. This means each individual muscle is under more weight than it could move by itself. This promotes muscle growth. If you're not eating like a beast for 3 years and working hard you're not going to look massive so don't worry about that.

Anyway just my 2 cents.

I am tracking my calories but was confused at first about how many I needed. Now I've found that my stats mean that I would need 2700 calories to maintain weight. I have been trying to do the 1g protein per lb bodymass which would be about 150g. However, I've also been wanting to maintain a 40/40/20.

When I enter that info here it tells me I should be eating 270g protein... Seems off to me. hardcorebodybuildingontheweb.com/caloriepercentagescalc404020.htm#

If my calculation of 8.5% is close to accurate I may not need to cut down at all, or if I do only cut down by 1-2% which shouldn't be too hard... right?

The "bodyspace" thing on this site tells me I'm at 12.3%. Is that to be trusted? It is closer to my original guess.

[SuffolkPunch]

Don't use ratios, it leads to dodgy results - and an unnecessary need for precision.

Just use 1g of protein per lb of lean body mass and 0.45g of fat per lb of LBM. Any calories left over after hitting those numbers can be used for carbs or more proteins/fats

[jmcq]

I am tracking my calories but was confused at first about how many I needed. Now I've found that my stats mean that I would need 2700 calories to maintain weight. I have been trying to do the 1g protein per lb bodymass which would be about 150g. However, I've also been wanting to maintain a 40/40/20.

When I enter that info here it tells me I should be eating 270g protein... Seems off to me. hardcorebodybuildingontheweb.com/caloriepercentagescalc404020.htm#

If my calculation of 8.5% is close to accurate I may not need to cut down at all, or if I do only cut down by 1-2% which shouldn't be too hard... right?

The "bodyspace" thing on this site tells me I'm at 12.3%. Is that to be trusted? It is closer to my original guess.

Use this: http://iifym.com/iifym-calculator/

If you want to calculate your body fat buy calipers: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 <$10 and a good way to measure progress in terms of body fat.

As SuffolkPunch mentioned don't worry too much about splits. Try to get 1g of protein per pound of lbm at least (doesn't hurt to do more). Shoot for around 0.45g of fat per pound lbm. Then spend the rest however you like. Remember to recalculate every few weeks if you are gaining weight as these will change. Also note that this is a ballpark estimate of your maintenance, not the actual number. You'll need to adjust accordingly. For example if 3000 calories has you gaining 0.5lbs per week and you find you gain more (less) then you need to decrease (increase) the calories to be at the goal -- use this to calculate your true maintenance. 500 calories below/above per day equals about 1 pound loss/gain per week.

Insofar as cutting down, each % bodyfat gets harder to cut down as you get lower body fat. For example going from 25% to 24% is going to be a lot easier than going from 5% to 4%.

[MagneticPerson]

I keep seeing this .45g fat per lb of bodyweight come up. How the hell do you do that while getting enough protein? I'm having a very difficult time keeping my fat intake below 80g/day. They are mostly healthy fats. I chicken and eat eggs often and I refuse to only the egg whites as I think the fear of the yolk is complete non-sense.

I also eat small amounts of peanut butter and salad dressing but even a couple of tablespoons throughout the day can shoot me way past the .45g/lb ratio. I'm typically getting 30/35/35 for my pro/carb/fat ratio. As long as I get the protein right does it really matter?

Also, in order to eat at a slight caloric surplus I'm going WAY over the 1g/lb of protein. Actually, I don't think I've even gotten to a surplus yet but I've still had days of 170-200+ grams of protein.

[jmcq]

I keep seeing this .45g fat per lb of bodyweight come up. How the hell do you do that while getting enough protein? I'm having a very difficult time keeping my fat intake below 80g/day. They are mostly healthy fats. I chicken and eat eggs often and I refuse to only the egg whites as I think the fear of the yolk is complete non-sense.

I also eat small amounts of peanut butter and salad dressing but even a couple of tablespoons throughout the day can shoot me way past the .45g/lb ratio. I'm typically getting 30/35/35 for my pro/carb/fat ratio. As long as I get the protein right does it really matter?

Also, in order to eat at a slight caloric surplus I'm going WAY over the 1g/lb of protein. Actually, I don't think I've even gotten to a surplus yet but I've still had days of 170-200+ grams of protein.

Insofar as I understand it, those are minimums. At least 1g of protein per lb of lbm. At least 0.45g of fat per lb of lbm. Yeah if you eat eggs, milk, avocado, etc., you'll blow through those minimums.

[SuffolkPunch]

^ Precisely, the above calculator is useful but makes you thing you must hit those numbers on the nose. Protein and fat are minimums - fill the remainder with any combination of pro/fat/carb

[jgreystoke]

I take no offense. That's just opinion and it is completely subjective as I am at a healthy BMI.

BMI is based on sedentary people with underdeveloped muscles. Strength athletes are typically in the "overweight" or "obese" range of BMI because of their developed muscles.

180lb guy at 15% BF = 153 Lean Body Mass + 27lbs fat mass.

He looks vastly more impressive than a

140lb guy at 12% = 123lb LBM + 17lbs fat mass

The extra 30lbs of muscle gives him vastly more strength and strength endurance etc.

If you really get down to 7%, you will likely LOSE muscle mass(and you don't have much to lose) because of reduced test production, especially if you avoid healthy natural saturated fat in whole eggs, beef, chops, whole milk and dairy including butter etc. Your strength, mood, libido etc might fall off a cliff.

120lbs @ 7% = 112lbs LBM + 8lbs fat mass.

You'll probably have to ask Granny to open the pickle jar.

Do you think a sixpack makes someone impressive when they are small and weak? Gandhi had one, like about all undernourished Third World Males.

[MagneticPerson]

...He looks vastly more impressive than a...

You just proved my previous point about it being completely subjective.

You also missed the part where I said I DO eat healthy fats. I eat loads of eggs, chicken, avocado, etc. I'm not sure what you were referencing there.

I'm fully aware that BMI is flawed. I am healthy and am in fact not underweight unless viewed through the eyes of someone obsessed with building muscle. BMI may be flawed, but even being on the low end of a healthy BMI is vastly different from the "third world" body you mention.

My dad spent a year in South America. When he returned he said that even though he felt better and was leaner than he'd been in years people kept trying to feed him more here in America so that he'd get "healthier". Our culture has an obsession with size as is evident by your post. I'm not trying to call you out on anything personally, just pointing that fact out. Not everybody cares about size, growth and muscle as much as people in the bodybuilding community, and I'll let you in on a secret *that's ok*.

Lastly, I really don't care at all about having "vastly more strength and endurance". I just want to look good. None of what I said is meant to say that building muscle isn't good or healthy, or that my opinion on physical aesthetics is superior because I'm obviously here for a reason and am trying to make changes to my current shape/frame/physique.

I appreciate all the helpful advice given so far. Even though I defend my shape, I still want to see what I can do to improve it.

[John4789]

If you didn't want advice from bodybuilders you shouln't have posted on this forum.

Regardless, you need to do the following in order to proceed.

Step 1:

-Work out your TDEE (you can either calculate or figure it out from your current diet)
-Calculate your macros
-Calculate what sort of surplus you want
See: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981 for help with all of this.
-Don't worry about anything else, as long as you're roughly hitting your macros and staying in a surplus every day, you're 80% of the way there.

Step 2:

-Get on a proven Barbell training program, this will enable you to do something with all those extra calories you're consuming. Anything like Stronglifts or ICF5x5 will see great noob gains in your first year of training, FOLLOW IT TO THE LETTER - the people who write these programs know their ****.
-DONT WORRY ABOUT GETTING BIG. It is very difficult to get big, the reason? For one you are obviously naturally small so are at a disadvantage already, secondly, all the bodybuilders you are thinking about are probably on masses of gear. Thridly, it takes years to get huge, even with all the gear in the world, you're not going to blow up overnight.

Step 3:

-Get plenty of sleep.
-Sustain this lifestyle, accept that you are in it for the long haul, there are no shortcuts, and you are not going to acheieve anything quickly, your first year will see big change in your body, but progress can and will slow after this point.

Good luck, any questions just ask.

[MagneticPerson]

If you didn't want advice from bodybuilders you shouln't have posted on this forum.

I do want advice and I appreciate it. I just don't care for the negative comments that add no value.

Thanks for your advice. The answer to my original question seems pretty clear to me now after all the helpful posts.

[jgreystoke]

Lastly, I really don't care at all about having "vastly more strength and endurance". I just want to look good. None of what I said is meant to say that building muscle isn't good or healthy, or that my opinion on physical aesthetics is superior because I'm obviously here for a reason and am trying to make changes to my current shape/frame/physique.

Good for you.

Altho' strength and strength-endurance are very good in themselves. And being weak is never a good choice. Weak is visible in the form of poor posture and movement, and not just somebody who looks thin and weak. That doesn't look good. Strong flexible people just move differently, like a panther, effortlessly.

At 140lbs, you are unlikely to look like you train at all.

And if you get even leaner, you are likely to lose so much size that you will just look even thinner and weaker.

The first thing you should do to improve your appearance is to build some muscle so that you look healthier and stronger. Don't worry, you are unlikely to get to 250lbs. Your posture and movement will improve, making you even more impressive, even if the effect on most people is not conscious.

It is hard to look good if you have much less muscle than normal size manual workers/active guys who don't even lift.

Even if you just do a good BODYWEIGHT program, you will likely get a lot bigger than 140 at 6', without ever touching a weight, and you will look like you train:

1. Deep bodyweight squats:

Sit right down on calves while inhaling. Pause to kill the stretch reflex and make it harder. Power back up while exhaling. Work up to a hundred rep set. That is not excessive, I'm sixty, and I regularly do that just to recover from heavy lower body work a few days before, which should be a clue.

Obviously when you get much more than a set of twenty reps, the improvement is mostly endurance and not strength or explosive power. That's why they invented the adjustable barbell. All those great sprinters you see on youtube likely squat double bodyweight for reps, and wouldn't be competitive at all if they didn't weight train.

They might be your height and 170+, and look amazing. Usain Bolt is much taller at 6'5. He weighs 210.

2. Pushups and dips:


Various kinds. Work up to a high total rep number. The best way seems to be multiple sets at only HALF your rep max. So sets of five if you can only do 10 or 11 pushups good form. Retest rep max regularly. You'd be surprised low little time it will take you to get to a set of 50 perfect pushups reps. Then you can reduce reps per set and raise legs on step, coffee table, chair, table, window sill etc to make it harder.

Using pauses just off the floor on the bottom, and maybe also halfway up and down(as per Angelo Siciliano = Charles Atlas) will greatly increase the difficulty of pushups and make them very effective.

You can do bench dips and parallel bar dips(on trestles or the backs of sturdy chairs). Just don't do excessive range of motion that hurts shoulder joint.

3. Rack chins*and chins.

Again a good protocol for progress is to do multiple sets at half your rep max.

Again a pause at the top, and maybe one on the way down, helps you dominate the movement, and become very adept at moving your body through space.

Notice the above includes the big movements based on natural human movement that uses the a lot of muscle mass, like ANY rational program:

squat
push
pull.

Add glute ham bridges/hyperextensions for low back strength.

Eat sufficent protein, healthy fats, and make up your total calories with anything the hell you want, including desserts with lots of carbs if you like.

Obviously if you restrict calories to prevent growth you can get as strong as possible at your present size, especially if you train progressively on weights when bodyweight stuff doesn't cut it any more. You still might look like a weak untrained person, unless you gain some muscular size.

Giving yourself permission to gain a bit of muscle mass will do wonders for your appearance. Especially when you have enough muscle to look like an athletic guy.

*Pulling yourself up from the horizontal position like a pushup in reverse to a horizontal bar at arms length. The load is about half bodyweight, just like a normal pushup. Contrast that to whole bodyweight for a chin or a dip.

Best of luck, whatever you do.