Opinions on instinctive training (NOT for me)

[ForeverPulling]

I'm following Madcows right now (with slightly different on the deadlifts but that's a long story due to my gym owner) and I plan on doing 5/3/1 after that. I don't plan on doing instinctive training. I'm just interested .

I was just wondering what your opinion on training instinctively for strength was? E.g. perhaps you'll have a squat, deadlift, bench and maybe some sort of shoulder/filling in the rest day and just hitting it heavy. It seems to work for some people, but following a progression scheme on a proper routine also works for many more.

A guy at my gym hit a 600lb deadlift weighing just 185lbs and he trains instinctively. How much less effective to you think it is that a proper routine like Westside or The Cube? Do you think it depends on the sort of mentality you have, some guys are just completely lazy and need to be told what to do.

EDIT: I think even Babyslayer may train this way? Although when your somebody as crazy as him, he could train many ways and get decent results.
I couldn't train like this. I'm OCD and like to have a set routine with planned progression, but maybe some can.

[brudman]

I think as careers progress, there are two things that happen:

1. A lifter starts very structured, and over time instinct and knowledge are developed, which then take over and the lifter programs to his needs.

2. A lifter starts without structure, and over time instinct and knowledge are developed, and the lifter ends up with a form of structured chaos that works for them, refined by trial and error.

While the beginnings are polar opposites, the end results aren't as far apart as you might think.

[EasternHammer]

I'm following Madcows right now (with slightly different on the deadlifts but that's a long story due to my gym owner) and I plan on doing 5/3/1 after that. I don't plan on doing instinctive training. I'm just interested .

I was just wondering what your opinion on training instinctively for strength was? E.g. perhaps you'll have a squat, deadlift, bench and maybe some sort of shoulder/filling in the rest day and just hitting it heavy. It seems to work for some people, but following a progression scheme on a proper routine also works for many more.

A guy at my gym hit a 600lb deadlift weighing just 185lbs and he trains instinctively. How much less effective to you think it is that a proper routine like Westside or The Cube? Do you think it depends on the sort of mentality you have, some guys are just completely lazy and need to be told what to do.

EDIT: I think even Babyslayer may train this way? Although when your somebody as crazy as him, he could train many ways and get decent results.
I couldn't train like this. I'm OCD and like to have a set routine with planned progression, but maybe some can.

If you mean working to a daily max in the style of Bulgarian weightlifters, yes it works obviously. But to train this way I think a few things are smart pre-requisites.

#1-Build a strong base. You must have reliable technique and a decent amount of experience in the gym.
#2-Don't expect to train this,way all the time. At least half of the year, in my opinion, should be spent in preparation for intense training. Traditional periodization with gradually increasing volume is the best thing for these times.
#3-Have good awareness of your capabilities. When you train to a daily max, you have to know when to shut it down and when you can do 10# more. Doing another gutbusting squat isn't always appealing in the moment. But you must make,the,effort.

In short, I believe in "instinctive training." But even this kind of approach needs structure. I think it is best used to peak for a meet, 4-6 weeks out. The rest of the time, train in the traditional manner.

[tom11]

I'm following Madcows right now (with slightly different on the deadlifts but that's a long story due to my gym owner) and I plan on doing 5/3/1 after that. I don't plan on doing instinctive training. I'm just interested .

I was just wondering what your opinion on training instinctively for strength was? E.g. perhaps you'll have a squat, deadlift, bench and maybe some sort of shoulder/filling in the rest day and just hitting it heavy. It seems to work for some people, but following a progression scheme on a proper routine also works for many more.

A guy at my gym hit a 600lb deadlift weighing just 185lbs and he trains instinctively. How much less effective to you think it is that a proper routine like Westside or The Cube? Do you think it depends on the sort of mentality you have, some guys are just completely lazy and need to be told what to do.

EDIT: I think even Babyslayer may train this way? Although when your somebody as crazy as him, he could train many ways and get decent results.
I couldn't train like this. I'm OCD and like to have a set routine with planned progression, but maybe some can.

Instinctive training? No. Following a time proven program like 5x5? Yes. Self made program regulating total volume, intensity and exercise-number selection? Maybe, but you need experience how to do it. Starting up with volume periods followed by transition blocks leading to strength realization blocks up to a meet. But you need to have some training theory knowledge to do that, so why not stick to a time proven program?

[Mitch666]

Almost all people that compete at a high level lay out their training blocks suited to their specific goals at that time, that doesn't mean everything is followed to a t but it seems to be the way to go.

Then again jamie lewis just yolo's everything all the time and is strong as ****, but ik he's pretty hated in the powerlifting section here.

OP in my experience some form of periodization ensures steady progress.

[tinytim1]

How is westside a 'proper' routine? Im pretty sure that's instinctive as well

[avodo]

I believe auto-regulated training is the best route to take after linear gains have been exhausted. I am almost certain every elite lifter includes some sort of autoregulation/instinctive training in their program. I couldn't imagine there would be too many lifters that would walk into the gym on a ****ty day and risk injury for the sake of hitting a pre-programmed weight. Consistency is a defining factor in determining long term gains, and I think some sort of instinctive or autoregulated training will help you remain consistent and not stall out or hurt yourself.

[Retardo-pex]

I'm following Madcows right now (with slightly different on the deadlifts but that's a long story due to my gym owner) and I plan on doing 5/3/1 after that. I don't plan on doing instinctive training. I'm just interested .

I was just wondering what your opinion on training instinctively for strength was? E.g. perhaps you'll have a squat, deadlift, bench and maybe some sort of shoulder/filling in the rest day and just hitting it heavy. It seems to work for some people, but following a progression scheme on a proper routine also works for many more.

A guy at my gym hit a 600lb deadlift weighing just 185lbs and he trains instinctively. How much less effective to you think it is that a proper routine like Westside or The Cube? Do you think it depends on the sort of mentality you have, some guys are just completely lazy and need to be told what to do.

EDIT: I think even Babyslayer may train this way? Although when your somebody as crazy as him, he could train many ways and get decent results.
I couldn't train like this. I'm OCD and like to have a set routine with planned progression, but maybe some can.

I guess it depends on how you define instinctive. I've seen plenty of people who "train instinctively" which is just another way of saying they don't keep track of their training, they walk into the gym and do whatever they feel like doing until they are tired and leave. They way I train right now I know what my main movement is for any given training day and what weight I will most likely be shooting for, my training days aren't always the same days every week depending on how my body might feel, and most of my assistance work is chosen as I go along in my workout, picked to bring up weaker points I may have noticed in my main lift. Then there are the guys who actually have an idea of what works perfectly for them, and can base every training day around this.

There is a big difference between the first example and the last example though, the first person is probably the guy we've all seen doing the same **** for years and never progressing, where the last example is the guy who has been training for years and actually has a clue.

[moreweightmate]

I've never heard the term instinctive training, but I guess that's what I do. In the past I've ran almost all the programs and never quite got the same results that I got from doing things on my own. But... I take extremely detailed notes on my workouts and analyze them week to week to determine what numbers to hit

[breathinglife]

"Instinctive training" may be a bit of a misnomer. An instinct is an inherent inclination to behave a certain way--something that precedes reason, knowledge, learning, etc.

What you are more referring to are experienced lifters who are not lifting based on percentages or a structured routine, but are instead operating on very educated guesses. The reason this works is that there are so many variables to account for with the human body that a structured routine may work for a beginner, but to progress at a more advanced level requires something specifically tailored to that lifter. This sort of training works in proportion to how educated the guesses are, but it's always possible that lifters may get lucky and stumble upon a system that works well for them in spite of being counter to generally accepted training methods.

Essentially what you have are lifters coaching themselves--they know if they don't hit a certain set on a certain day, they need to drop the weights they had planned on and up their rest, nutrition, etc.

This is something you really should be doing even with structured routines. If you fail on a work set, you probably aren't recovered enough. If everything feels easier than it should, you should up the weights regardless of what the spreadsheet says.

The problem is that beginning lifters aren't experienced enough to know and anticipate the long-term effects of things like accumulated volume, so they'll have a good day and raise all the weights and come in for the next workout and fail a whole bunch of sets. This is why, for beginners, it is better to just follow the percentages; the percentages will more often be correct than their educated guesses. I've gotten to a place in my training where I train without a written down plan, but that's because I've been PLing for almost a decade and can interpret the signals my body fairly accurately.

[Link815]

I use a semi-structured squat routine, then do whatever I feel like to peak for the next few weeks after it. Bench I pretty much just do whatever I feel like that day anymore. Structured bench programs have been pretty unsuccessful since I've gotten into the 400's.

[ahox]

I think anyone who trains seriously, trains instinctually to some extent even if you are following a set program. Sometimes in the gym things can go really wrong or really right. Some days your program might say to do 5+ reps but the last set just didn't feel right and you decide to just hit the next set of 5 with no additional reps or another day you might feel really strong and decide to hit some big singles instead of going for a rep PR. These are things you cannot prepare for. They either happen or they don't.

IMO the only people who should follow a program to the letter without any deviation are people brand new to weight training because their instincts for lifting have not yet been developed. Everybody has a plan even if they say they are training "instinctually". Progression is not something you can just feel like doing. Like you cant go squat 225 one day and then decide to move up to 315 the next workout. Some kind of planning needs to occur to get you from 225 to 315. Instinct comes into play when you get to 295 and either feel strong as hell to go for it and hit that 315 for a single or weak as sh!t and back the weight down 10lbs the following week to build back up.

[mdonnelly80]

Instinctive training was one of those principles that came out of Weider and early bodybuilding. Many bodybuilders teeter on the verge of overtraining year round so, basically, "instinctive training" was born as a response to this.

"I've been training twice a day, six days a week with 40 sets worth of volume per workout for six months, I feel like crap so Id better 'listen to my instincts' and not train like an idiot".

So, IMO, bodybuilders and powerlifters alike benefit from having a smart, well structured program but they need to be smart enough to listen to their bodies. I don't think establishing some haphazard "instinctive" training protocol is optimal because everything we plan and do as powerlifters serves a purpose.

But, with that being said, I do listen to my body's feedback day to day. If I'm feeling worn down, I will just do speed bench/squats (never deads) or light GPP for a training session and go home. I know that I can still get something productive done without overtraining.

I have no issue cutting a heavier workout short if I'm feeling chewed up. My heavy squat day was like that in Sunday. I got two working sets in and felt like crap. So, I did one last set of squats, some reverse-hypers, stretched and called it a day.

[scottyk31]

If we are talking instinctive as in fly by the seat of your pants and go in and do whatever, I think you will find that on a high level you will only find a handful of these lifters who are the exception to the rule as far as training is concerned. Having a plan and structure are the building blocks for success for lifting. As a rule, adjustments to a plan to fit the ever changing flow of training is good, but just randomly doing crap will lead ultimately to mediocrity unless you are some kind of freak of nature. The most important instincts are the killer instinct, instinct to back down before you f yourself up, and the instinct to know when you are spinning your wheels and need to change training direction.