"Lifting heavy" while cutting

[mavajo]

So I've gone through a couple cycles of All Pro's, and I just started a new cycle today. Long story short, I really struggled through the 8-rep sets today. I finished them all, but the handwriting's on the wall - I'll be surprised if I don't fail half the lifts by week 5 of this cycle. The last cycle was brutal too, and I barely made it through the 12-rep sets - failed the overhead press actually. Now my understanding is that the primary reason for lifting while cutting is to preserve muscle mass - after the initial start-up, any strength or muscle mass gains while on a cut will be minimum, if any at all.

So my question is, how important is it to push your limits while lifting on a cut? It would seem that "lifting heavy" would be sufficient to preserve muscle mass, and that pushing your limits wouldn't serve much purpose aside from burning a few additional calories - at the expense of seriously taxing your body.

Thoughts? Am I missing something?

EDIT: To be clear, this thread isn't really about my All Pro cycle. I added that first paragraph as more of a background as to what made me start considering my question in bold. It just got me thinking that progressive overload is kind of unnecessary on a cut -- as long as you're making sure to lift heavy, of course. But I'm a huge newbie to all of this, so it's quite possible I'm missing something.

[Serpentarius]

dont worry about a program's sets and reps, just do what you can. You should always be pushing at 100% in the gym though. Progressive overload is the name of the game, and once reps start falling off, reduce weight.
Strength loss doesnt indicate muscle loss however, its just lack of glycogen and energy that diminished performance comes from.
The only thing that suffers for me is upper body movements, ill usually just lose 1 rep a week.

[mavajo]

dont worry about a program's sets and reps, just do what you can. You should always be pushing at 100% in the gym though. Progressive overload is the name of the game, and once reps start falling off, reduce weight.
Strength loss doesnt indicate muscle loss however, its just lack of glycogen and energy that diminished performance comes from.
The only thing that suffers for me is upper body movements, ill usually just lose 1 rep a week.

I know progressive overload is vital while building muscle/strength, but while you're on a cut, you're not going to be building muscle/strength in any meaningful way - so it seems like progressive overload would just be an unnecessary tax on your body during a cut.

To my knowledge, the only point of lifting while cutting is to preserve muscle mass - and progressive overload would seem to go well above and beyond that. Basically, if lifting at 80-90%* will preserve your muscle mass, then why push yourself to lift 90%-100%* during a cut?

*Imaginary, hypothetical numbers for illustrative purposes.

[thors5]

I've been cutting and was able to raise my deadlift max, but I lost strength in other areas. On a cut you might not build muscle but you can train your CNS and get stronger, obviously not by too much though.

[Tupperwolf]

All Pro's is great on a cut IMO. The medium and light days can be just as challenging as the heavy days. The whole point is to have a set goal of weight, reps, and sets every time you go to the gym and strive as hard as you can to meet that goal. Sometimes you just won't be able to get every rep, and that's fine. You may even have just had an off day today, which happens to everyone. I felt discouraged by a rough gym session many times while running All Pro's on a cut and then coming back hard the next time.

[Serpentarius]

well nothing should change except reducing total worksets BECAUSE strength gains would be minimal so there is no reason for an overabundance of sets/reps. Muscle is only stronger because of progressive overload, the stimulus to force the muscle to grow, it will be best stimulated when its forced to endure a heavy weight.
Imagine is you reduce intensity, you will basically be at less of a starting point from where you left off with nothing to show for it other than strength loss...which...might be fine is you are squatting 140 pounds, but when you get big numbers, a lot is on the line because at that point the gains are minimal as it is. Ill be damned if im letting a close to 450 lb deadlift get any lower.

Really though, there is no such thing as overtraining or not being able to recover from "allpros", unless you were eating nothing but fats. You will also have weak and strong days in the gym, overall a graph should show steady increase in numbers constantly, you are probably better off on a real strength program as i feel low reps with a heavier weight best maintains strength due to being less reliant on glycogen and relying more on central nervous system.

[ToshiroAki]

yeah i tend to see my numbers bounce around in my 5x5 days, my 5x15 is pretty set if not easy though.

usually just lacking carbs as i get 50g on a good day. cutting is hard for energy some times but i lift heavy enough to get minor muscle pain, and generally fatigue the muscle on my 5x5 that my last set may be a 5x3. or my 5x15's last set a 12.

[Jbreezee]

I train the same whether I'm cutting or dieting. Heavy heavy heavy. I don't think training should change just because you're cutting.

[Sp3cialK]

I am on week 10 back in the gym. I lift as heavy as I am able to. I do 4 sets (8 reps, 6 reps, 4 reps, 4 reps) I increase the weight for the 6 rep set and then once again for the 4 rep sets. I am usually dead by the third or fourth rep on the last set. If not, I feel like I didn't push hard enough.

I keep going up week after week in most lifts and will keep doing so until I plateau. I am dying to get to a point where I can bulk, but still need another 20lbs fat cut.

[RJLDomingo]

I am cutting and doing StrongLifts that is, adding weights every workout.

[dmacdonal9]

If your deficit is moderate and you haven't cut carbs too low, then the problem is not losing strength so much as it is losing your ability to recover. Dropping a set or two and reducing the number of assistance exercises you're doing while cutting is generally all you need to do to be able to keep the weight the same or increase it during a cut.

Trying to keep volume the same with impaired recovery is where you get into trouble. You'll find that if you try that, then every set becomes lifting to failure, and then recovery is even more of a problem.

[mavajo]

If your deficit is moderate and you haven't cut carbs too low

My carbs are generally around 150. Does this fall within the "too low" category?

[geek23ka]

cutting here. long term. in three and a half months, i have lost 24 pounds body weight, and gone from 205 to 225 on my squat. i'm using 531 and doing max effort for my AMRAPs every time. you can definitely gain strength and hit PR's while cutting.

also my carbs are around 150 daily. i think that carbohydrate need is somewhat individual though. i spend a good while eating paleo and my body adjusted and thinks 150 is plenty.

[dmacdonal9]

My carbs are generally around 150. Does this fall within the "too low" category?

I would think if you're lifting + minimal cardio, then no, that's pretty moderate. If you're highly active, physical job, sports, plus lifting, then yes, I'd call it too low.

[jimsmith9999]

OP - pretty sure you fall into the beginner stage as far as lifters go (if I recall correctly). If so, you really should be making strength gains on a cut. If not, I suspect you have some issues with overall volume, inadequate calories or possibly protein.

[EaZeeY]

So my question is, how important is it to push your limits while lifting on a cut? It would seem that "lifting heavy" would be sufficient to preserve muscle mass, and that pushing your limits wouldn't serve much purpose aside from burning a few additional calories - at the expense of seriously taxing your body.
[/I]

I am on 1500cal deficit and lift as hard as I can, been sleeping like 12h a day lately its really really hard but you got to sacrifice and be a man not a wuss!

[Powerkicker]

I just lost 50 pounds and still have 5-6 more to go and my thighs are bigger now than when I started. You can grow mass when cutting...at least I did.

[elgatito71]

OP maybe you started the program with 85% of you 1rm and are getting close to your 1rm.... i have always use this routine to cut and yes in some days i feel week but that's almost at the end of my cut i usually have a pre-workout meal mostly carbs the helps me a lot and i don't loss strength when i'm cutting just sometimes can't get all the 12 reps at the end of the program...

[Powerkicker]

I am on 1500cal deficit and lift as hard as I can, been sleeping like 12h a day lately its really really hard but you got to sacrifice and be a man not a wuss!

1500 calorie deficit seems too severe to me. I have been running a 500 calorie deficit and losing a pound a week average since I started at the end of last September. 1000 cal deficit would be as high has I'd consider going to preserve muscle tissue.

[EaZeeY]

1500 calorie deficit seems too severe to me. I have been running a 500 calorie deficit and losing a pound a week average since I started at the end of last September. 1000 cal deficit would be as high has I'd consider going to preserve muscle tissue.

Just motivate yourself and find what works best for you man, It's all in your mind!

[brandonbourgoin]

Should lift heavy while cutting and bulking.

[unleashthelion]

Listen to everyone. Four months ago, I started making excuses for not lifting heavy (stalling too often, not enough energy, blah blah blah) and duped myself into deloading, doing BS fluff routines, *gasp* supersetting and doing isolation movements... now I find myself back at all of my beginning numbers, 2 months away from getting back to where I was (so a waste of 6 months).

If you want to build muscle and you are not severely injured, there is NO reason why you shouldn't be "lifting heavy". I learned this the hard way -- please be wise and learn from my mistake.

[unknown00]

when i was cutting hardcore to maintain muscles i did a week of low weight/high reps then a week of high weight/low reps. some personal trainer told me this, worked great

[mavajo]

Listen to everyone. Four months ago, I started making excuses for not lifting heavy (stalling too often, not enough energy, blah blah blah) and duped myself into deloading, doing BS fluff routines, *gasp* supersetting and doing isolation movements... now I find myself back at all of my beginning numbers, 2 months away from getting back to where I was (so a waste of 6 months).

If you want to build muscle and you are not severely injured, there is NO reason why you shouldn't be "lifting heavy". I learned this the hard way -- please be wise and learn from my mistake.

I'm not sure how this devolved into the belief that I don't want to lift heavy. In fact, the bold part of my OP made it clear that I intend to continue lifting heavy, and I undoubtedly see the value in it.

The premise was simply whether it's actually necessary to push your limits (progressive overload), or whether simply lifting heavy is sufficient to accomplish the same goals while on a cut.

Should lift heavy while cutting and bulking.

Yeah, that's not in dispute here. The question is whether progressive overload is really worth it while on a cut, particularly extended cuts.

OP - pretty sure you fall into the beginner stage as far as lifters go (if I recall correctly). If so, you really should be making strength gains on a cut.

I could be wrong, but I really don't think you're going to be making strength gains in the 5th month of a cut (which I'm in currently).

I made quite a few strength gains the first few months, particularly with stabilizing muscles, etc., which had generally been underused/underdeveloped before starting my weightlifting program. But that has since leveled off.

[Fortheboys]

Just do a one more rep than you did the time before/add 5 lbs to the lift

[canadiancoops]

Depending on your workout routine I would eat around your workout.

I do full body 3 times a week and currently cutting. I find having a nice high carb, high fat dinner the night before, like pasta or rice with some nice fatty meats/sauces, really helps the next morning workout.

You only need 3 dinners a week like that if you are worried about the calories. It helps me and still at a defecit - might be an option

[Rooster09]

I'm not sure how this devolved into the belief that I don't want to lift heavy. In fact, the bold part of my OP made it clear that I intend to continue lifting heavy, and I undoubtedly see the value in it.

The premise was simply whether it's actually necessary to push your limits (progressive overload), or whether simply lifting heavy is sufficient to accomplish the same goals while on a cut.

I think the issue here is the definition of lifting heavy. If I am not lifting more over time then I am not lifting heavy. If it's the same thing every time it isn't heavy. Every time I go to the gym I lift like I mean it. Maybe I'm just a tight @$$ by nature and don't want to waste my gym dues? I dunno. To lift heavy is to lift hard which means the weight/rep goes up. Period.

Don't over think something that doesn't need to be overthought.

[jimsmith9999]

I could be wrong, but I really don't think you're going to be making strength gains in the 5th month of a cut (which I'm in currently).

I made quite a few strength gains the first few months, particularly with stabilizing muscles, etc., which had generally been underused/underdeveloped before starting my weightlifting program. But that has since leveled off.

It really depends on how you have progressed in the gym (basically how much you are lifting). If you have steadily progressed in your big lifts over that time (consistently adding weight to the bar) and you are now pushing up decent numbers, then you probably will not make much in the way of strength gains. If you are squatting & deadlifting half your body weight, you probably shouldn't be stalling out yet unless something else is up.

If you are putting up good numbers, it might be time to change up the routine (decrease sets a bit, or look for something that does not have you squatting every day). All Pros' is a lot of volume for some - certainly more than is needed in a cut.

A huge part of initial strength gains is neurological adaption vs muscle growth, which is why it is easier to progress in strength as a newb. That was why I suggested it as a potential issue. It's fully possible to still be capable of making strength gains after a 5 month (sane) cut. It's not about the time, it's about what you have done in that time. There is a big difference between Person A who follows a solid training plan, solid progression, and adds 50-100lb to their major lifts in 5 months and Person B that screws around is and isn't lifting much more than when they started.

[lee__d]

Progressive overload should still be your focus while cutting.

[AAOBob]

The premise was simply whether it's actually necessary to push your limits (progressive overload), or whether simply lifting heavy is sufficient to accomplish the same goals while on a cut.

Until I hit about 15% this wasn't a problem, now that I'm below that it is. I'm trying to progressively overload, and while I won't say progress is stalled, its a LOT slower. As others have said, lift with the same intensity, if that means you can add weight to the bar great, if not, at least try as hard.