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  1. #1
    Registered User inaka_rob's Avatar
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    Dr. Jim Stoppani = broscience?!?!

    I am sure I am going to get bad rep for even suggesting this. I am sure there will be people who will rip my head off.
    First I have HUGE respect for Dr. Stoppani. His training techniques have changed my life.

    I have been a huge victim of broscience for nearly 10 years. For 10 years I focused on micromanaging EVERYTHING and never focused on my macros. I NEVER met my goals to any satification and kept giving up. In the past year I been on a journey of ridding my life of bro science, in addition to that, learning more effective training technique like those from Jim and I am blowing past every goal I set. Broscience was holding me back plain and simple. That being said, I have some serious questions about some advice that Dr. Jim Stoppani gives.

    1: He seems to subsribe to the notion of an anabolic window PWO and using simple carbs to spike insulin for said window.
    2: In his Short Cut to Shred he recommends using EXTRA BCAA to supplement what you're are already getting through 1.5g of proiten per lb of body wheight.

    Here on his page about nutrition http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dr-j...um-muscle.html
    Quoted from above page "Timing carb consumption relative to your workouts is important as well. Within 30 minutes of the start of your workout, along with your whey shake, consume 20-to-40 grams of slow-digesting carbs such as oatmeal or whole-wheat bread. Slow-digesting carbs provide longer-lasting energy than fast carbs do. Plus, they don't spike your insulin levels." and "Within 30 minutes after the workout, along with your protein shake, you'll want to consume another 40-to-100 grams of carbs. This time, however, you want fast-digesting carbs such as white bread, Vitargo S2, sorbet, or fat-free candy. The spike these carbs cause in insulin levels not only helps to quickly replenish muscle glycogen, but it also boosts protein synthesis and blunts cortisol levels."

    From what I understand this is 100% broscience. Whey has been proven to spike insulin level AS much or MORE than carbs {2}. Not to mention he is referencing "the magic PWO window" and in that webpage and in Short Cut to shred seems to preach that nutrient timing.

    I am basing my questions on articles I have read and fourum posts I have gone through. here are JUST a few that bascily say taking simple carbs post work out is a total broscience (i.e., pointless and baseless)
    {1}http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/
    {2}http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319
    and here is one where Alan A has the same to say http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...0154383&page=1
    "1) You don't need to try to "spike insulin" postworkout to get an anabolic effect. Forget everything you've learned. It's bullcrap. Your preworkout meal will do all the insulin elevating you need. Furthermore, most people's protein dose per meal will sufficiently raise insulin for maximal anabolic effect. But even then, if you choose to focus on a meal's isolated effect, you're missing the big picture of what's really important. My suggestion is to scrap that mentality & start macromanaging instead of micromanaging. Please read the stickies."

    Okay so what about BCAA's? I know the use of these tends to be a little more controversial. and even after reading a lot of articles about them, and what Aragon has to say, there is a point to them, in extreme cases of calorie restriction. but they seem pretty much pointless as well.
    here is s thread that goes back and forth about them, will links to sources and articles and the like.
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...1213173&page=1
    but in short "What you're not realizing is that the high-quality protein sources in your diet (ie, meat, fish, eggs, poultry, dairy, protein supps, etc) contain anywhere between 15-25% BCAA "
    and with Jims programs, cutting or bulking, he recommends REALLY high protein macros. 1.5 to 2 grams per pound. Right now I am 79kg and I am eating close 200g or more a training days. MINIMUM that is 30 grams of BCAA a day.
    So whats the deal. Is BB.com bascily saying "hey Jim you have to recommend these supps"

    Just curious what anyone else thinks.

    Jim also thinks highly of CLA, Alan does not. But CLA seems to also be rather controversial in that a ton of people swear by it. Alan also says the carnitine family of supps are crap.
    I am not saying 100% either way that one is right and on is wrong? that is why I wrote "Dr. Jim Stoppani = broscience?!?!" and used question marks.
    I have learned when it comes to bodybuilding, exercise, diet, nutrition, LIFE, it is better to question EVERY preconceived notion rather than just accept everything. That is what I am attempting to do to get the best understanding.
    Last edited by inaka_rob; 07-23-2013 at 09:57 PM.
    Like my profile pic? I sure don't. That is my motivation. To have the most embarrassing view of my fat back for all to see. That was taken in December 2012. My love handles are shrinking, but not enough yet. The pic will change when my goals are accomplished and I no longer suffer from FAT BACK syndrome. AKA love handles so wide I think I could flap them and fly away.

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  2. #2
    That proves nothing. Gxp23's Avatar
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    The thing is at the end of the day, you can still make great progress while still doing lots of things that are not necessary, compared to someone who is making great gains, doing everything that's required. You get what I am saying?
    "You're like the batman of this forum"- Patroclus32

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  3. #3
    Registered User inaka_rob's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Gxp23 View Post
    The thing is at the end of the day, you can still make great progress while still doing lots of things that are not necessary, compared to someone who is making great gains, doing everything that's required. You get what I am saying?
    I 100% understand what you are saying. Broscience isnt always, or even often detrimental on its myth. For my it was detrimental because can cause you to spend money you dont need to but most important loose focus on whats important.
    Case in point. Broscience says to slam down 20 to 40 grams of simple carbs like dextrose PWO to get that insulin spike. This in it self is not a going to cause any harm whatsoever if it still falls in with your MACROs. Dextrose is also cheaper than a bag of sand, or table sugar for that matter, so its not about cost. Its just not necessary.

    Part of the reason why some people hate brosceience, my self included is it makes life more complicated than it needs to be. Even though dextrose powder is cheap, its one less thing I have to measure out and mix up. Instead I could just ahve an extra serving of fruit or brownrice or even candy with PWO meal (as opposed to my post work out shake.... yes I have a PWO shake immediately after I work out becuase 1. hungry when I done working out, and 2. I work out during my lunch break and dont have time to fix solid food while I driving back to work)

    IIFYM.
    Like my profile pic? I sure don't. That is my motivation. To have the most embarrassing view of my fat back for all to see. That was taken in December 2012. My love handles are shrinking, but not enough yet. The pic will change when my goals are accomplished and I no longer suffer from FAT BACK syndrome. AKA love handles so wide I think I could flap them and fly away.

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  4. #4
    Registered User SixTwoSix's Avatar
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    My mate is following JS Shortcut to Size and eats a small bag of haribo straight after every workout then drinks a protein shake 2 minutes later. I asked him why, he said because it says so on the workout plan. He doesn't know why he does it, he just does. Regardless of whether it works or not, i'd need to know the reasons why before blindly following something like that.
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  5. #5
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    He tries to convince the naive to consume enormous amounts of useless supplements and some folks with absolutely no knowledge of nutrition and physiology fall for his nonsense.

    I feel sorry for those folks.
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  6. #6
    Registered User Jiigzz's Avatar
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    I like to micromanage; it is my job to do so. In saying that, there are many things that you do not need to follow, although following them is neither detrimental nor is it advantageous. People constantly get slammed, particularly on here for following many bodybuilding myths. Is there any harm in following them? Or does it simply imply that someone is willing to spend the time necessary doing everything possible to meet their goals?

    I dislike IIFYM on the premise that it means nothing in terms of overall health and longevity; or at least that is how many people portray IIFYM now. People say; "Bro twinkies are allgood, IIFYM brah" all the time without knowing the consequence of that action. IIFYM works for body composition, but not in terms of optimal health and longevity. For this case, someone must pay attention to micronutrients and other aspects of the diet.
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  7. #7
    try a chip bro necon76's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I like to micromanage; it is my job to do so. In saying that, there are many things that you do not need to follow, although following them is neither detrimental nor is it advantageous. People constantly get slammed, particularly on here for following many bodybuilding myths. Is there any harm in following them? Or does it simply imply that someone is willing to spend the time necessary doing everything possible to meet their goals?

    I dislike IIFYM on the premise that it means nothing in terms of overall health and longevity; or at least that is how many people portray IIFYM now. People say; "Bro twinkies are allgood, IIFYM brah" all the time without knowing the consequence of that action. IIFYM works for body composition, but not in terms of optimal health and longevity. For this case, someone must pay attention to micronutrients and other aspects of the diet.

    Why make life unnecessarily difficult?


    And the occasional treat won't hurt you. IIFYM isn't a license to eat like a 6 year old would every day. Common sense should tell people that.
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  8. #8
    Registered User Jiigzz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by necon76 View Post
    Why make life unnecessarily difficult?


    And the occasional treat won't hurt you. IIFYM isn't a license to eat like a 6 year old would every day. Common sense should tell people that.
    Yet common sense does not prevail; at least not in the general populous. For instance, the studies on high carbohydrate meals (with minimal fat) show unfavourable changes in blood lipid profiles and an increase in triglycerides (which subsequently lower LDL particle size) and grains, often touted as being "healthy" have negative implications for health: http://jasoncholewa.com/2013/02/08/e...d-your-health/
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  9. #9
    try a chip bro necon76's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Yet common sense does not prevail; at least not in the general populous. For instance, the studies on high carbohydrate meals (with minimal fat) show unfavourable changes in blood lipid profiles and an increase in triglycerides (which subsequently lower LDL particle size) and grains, often touted as being "healthy" have negative implications for health: http://jasoncholewa.com/2013/02/08/e...d-your-health/

    Link is tagged as paleo. Aint nobody got time for that.
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  10. #10
    Registered User Jiigzz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by necon76 View Post
    Link is tagged as paleo. Aint nobody got time for that.
    Author is not paleo. External tags are used to enhance the page "viewability" on google (via PageRank).

    In actual fact, it expouses paleo asbeing incorrect in that grains were cultivated in that era.
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I like to micromanage; it is my job to do so. In saying that, there are many things that you do not need to follow, although following them is neither detrimental nor is it advantageous. People constantly get slammed, particularly on here for following many bodybuilding myths. Is there any harm in following them? Or does it simply imply that someone is willing to spend the time necessary doing everything possible to meet their goals?

    I dislike IIFYM on the premise that it means nothing in terms of overall health and longevity; or at least that is how many people portray IIFYM now. People say; "Bro twinkies are allgood, IIFYM brah" all the time without knowing the consequence of that action. IIFYM works for body composition, but not in terms of optimal health and longevity. For this case, someone must pay attention to micronutrients and other aspects of the diet.
    Let me guess: you sell supplements.

    Let the naive be warned about those that deliberately mislead in search of profit.
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  12. #12
    Registered User Jiigzz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    Let me guess: you sell supplements.

    Let the naive be warned about those that deliberately mislead in search of profit.
    Have I tried plugging any products? My company does not rep here but out of respect for members here, I must state my affiliation.
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Have I tried plugging any products? My company does not rep here but out of respect for members here, I must state my affiliation.
    In other words, the answer is yes, you sell supplements.
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  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    In other words, the answer is yes, you sell supplements.
    That is what a company representative does. But what does that have to do with my input in this thread?
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    That is what a company representative does. But what does that have to do with my input in this thread?
    The only people I've ever encountered that don't ridicule the absurd supplement and nutritional advice provided by Stoppani are people who sell supplements and people who lack even the most rudimentary knowledge of nutrition and physiology.
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  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    That is what a company representative does. But what does that have to do with my input in this thread?
    Sorry, none of your posts are valid to me.

    I have no respect for bottom line chasers and people taking advantage of the unaware in order to make money.
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  17. #17
    Registered User Jiigzz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    The only people I've ever encountered that don't ridicule the absurd supplement and nutritional advice provided by Stoppani are people who sell supplements and people who lack even the most rudimentary knowledge of nutrition and physiology.
    I wasn't even commenting on Stoppani. It was a point to not under-think nutrition. IIFYM works well for body composition but not for other physiological functions. A 3000kcal diet comprised of higher carbohydrate will affect blood lipids and triglycerides in a much different way than a higher fat lower carb diet; partly due to the roll of triglycerides and LDL interaction; amongst other mechanisms.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1420088
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685042
    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/2/384.long
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  18. #18
    Chasing cats since 1967 WonderPug's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I wasn't even commenting on Stoppani..
    You're being disengenious by using a strawman argument.

    In regard to Stoppani, you said:

    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I like to micromanage; it is my job to do so. In saying that, there are many things that you do not need to follow, although following them is neither detrimental nor is it advantageous. People constantly get slammed, particularly on here for following many bodybuilding myths. Is there any harm in following them? Or does it simply imply that someone is willing to spend the time necessary doing everything possible to meet their goals?
    That's what we're discussing.




    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    It was a point to not under-think nutrition. IIFYM works well for body composition but not for other physiological functions. A 3000kcal diet comprised of higher carbohydrate will affect blood lipids and triglycerides in a much different way than a higher fat lower carb diet; partly due to the roll of triglycerides and LDL interaction; amongst other mechanisms.
    You don't even understand what IIFYM's (DCA) means.

    You really need to learn at least the most basic stuff.
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  19. #19
    Registered User Jiigzz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by softpounder View Post
    Sorry, none of your posts are valid to me.

    I have no respect for bottom line chasers and people taking advantage of the unaware in order to make money.
    How am I using this thread to make money? Or taking advantage of the "unaware?"
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  20. #20
    Registered User Jiigzz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    You're being disengenious by using a strawman argument.

    In regard to Stoppani, you said:

    That's what we're discussing.




    You don't even understand what IIFYM's (DCA) means.
    That wasn't WRT Stoppani, that was WRT the OP's post before my own.
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  21. #21
    Chasing cats since 1967 WonderPug's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    That wasn't WRT Stoppani, that was WRT the OP's post before my own.
    You seem confused about the posts and you surely don't even have a clue as to what IIFYM's (DCA) means.
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  22. #22
    Registered User Jiigzz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    You seem confused about the posts and you surely don't even have a clue as to what IIFYM's (DCA) means.
    I do, and I like that approach. But you and I both know (provided you work with clients in the field) that not everything perceives IIFYM to be this way (i.e. ensuring micronutrients are met). That was what I meant by micromanage; ensuring the small things whilst eating to cater for your goals. However, a lot of people use IIFYM as a tool to ONLY reach their macros whilst neglecting their micros.
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  23. #23
    Chasing cats since 1967 WonderPug's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I do, and I like that approach. But you and I both know (provided you work with clients in the field) that not everything perceives IIFYM to be this way (i.e. ensuring micronutrients are met). That was what I meant by micromanage; ensuring the small things whilst eating to cater for your goals. However, a lot of people use IIFYM as a tool to ONLY reach their macros whilst neglecting their micros.
    Please stop using straw man arguments.

    You said:

    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    It was a point to not under-think nutrition. IIFYM works well for body composition but not for other physiological functions. A 3000kcal diet comprised of higher carbohydrate will affect blood lipids and triglycerides in a much different way than a higher fat lower carb diet; partly due to the roll of triglycerides and LDL interaction; amongst other mechanisms.
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  24. #24
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I like to micromanage; it is my job to do so. In saying that, there are many things that you do not need to follow, although following them is neither detrimental nor is it advantageous. People constantly get slammed, particularly on here for following many bodybuilding myths. Is there any harm in following them? Or does it simply imply that someone is willing to spend the time necessary doing everything possible to meet their goals?
    Lulz. Even though obsessing over a non-existent 30-min window and PWO pixie stix does nothing, it's still a good idea because it "proves" one is a better bodybuilder, willing to "go the distance" no matter how absurd, than the other guy who simply ignores myths?

    How about -- the guy who actually puts in the extra effort to learn nutrition, makes smarter use of his time.

    Look, if you really want to micromanage something useful, maybe you could put together a Deer Wrestling Task Force and fetch us some antler velvet. Make sure you and the team wear blue clown suits, so you can prove there's no detail too insignificant to be worthwhile. Be that micromanager who's willing to go the extra distance, bro'!
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  25. #25
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    when i use any training programs from BB i never follow their nutrition plan. IIFYM
    -nutrition
    -patience
    -ass busting workout.
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  26. #26
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    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I do, and I like that approach. But you and I both know (provided you work with clients in the field) that not everything perceives IIFYM to be this way (i.e. ensuring micronutrients are met). That was what I meant by micromanage; ensuring the small things whilst eating to cater for your goals. However, a lot of people use IIFYM as a tool to ONLY reach their macros whilst neglecting their micros.
    Micronutrient deficient crew - checking in.
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  27. #27
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    Originally Posted by SixTwoSix View Post
    My mate is following JS Shortcut to Size and eats a small bag of haribo straight after every workout then drinks a protein shake 2 minutes later. I asked him why, he said because it says so on the workout plan. He doesn't know why he does it, he just does. Regardless of whether it works or not, i'd need to know the reasons why before blindly following something like that.
    this makes me sad, i see alot of ppl doing things just like this
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  28. #28
    Chasing cats since 1967 WonderPug's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SkydogGinsberg View Post
    Lulz. Even though obsessing over a non-existent 30-min window and PWO pixie stix does nothing, it's still a good idea because it "proves" one is a better bodybuilder, willing to "go the distance" no matter how absurd, than the other guy who simply ignores myths?

    How about -- the guy who actually puts in the extra effort to learn nutrition, makes smarter use of his time.

    Look, if you really want to micromanage something useful, maybe you could put together a Deer Wrestling Task Force and fetch us some antler velvet. Make sure you and the team wear blue clown suits, so you can prove there's no detail too insignificant to be worthwhile. Be that micromanager who's willing to go the extra distance, bro'!
    Fantastic post.

    Reps on spread.
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  29. #29
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    Originally Posted by inaka_rob View Post
    Dr. Jim Stoppani = broscience?!?!
    Yep.

    And even Google agrees.

    I searched the phrase, "broscience everywhere," and this is what Google produced:


















    Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I dislike IIFYM on the premise that it means nothing in terms of overall health and longevity; or at least that is how many people portray IIFYM now. People say; "Bro twinkies are allgood, IIFYM brah" all the time without knowing the consequence of that action. IIFYM works for body composition, but not in terms of optimal health and longevity. For this case, someone must pay attention to micronutrients and other aspects of the diet.
    LOL

    You don't have a clue about what IIFYM means.
    No brain, no gain.

    You can't out-train bad nutrition.

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