5/3/1: Who Was CNS Version. Guaranteed amazing results.

[phagtastic]

I just finished week 2 of my first cycle.

Is there any way to evaluate my + sets?

My numbers were:

Bench
6 reps
5 reps
4 reps (today was week 3 bench day)

Deadlift
6 reps
4 reps

OHP
6 reps
5 reps

Squat
7 reps
6 reps

Is this okay?

[geneswest]

I just finished week 2 of my first cycle.

Is there any way to evaluate my + sets?

My numbers were:

Bench
6 reps
5 reps
4 reps (today was week 3 bench day)

Deadlift
6 reps
4 reps

OHP
6 reps
5 reps

Squat
7 reps
6 reps

Is this okay?

If they were all done to failure then you have over-estimated your 1RM's. Most people manage at least 10-12 reps on the first week, but you might just not be that good at repping out. Doesn't matter you will still progress, hopefully next cycle you can at least match the reps you hit on the first cycle. keep it up!

[Bartmasta]

I'm having pretty good progress with the program, though I started with a higher weight because I couldn't be assed with the 90% of your 1rm ****. However I have a question for you OP: What would be the best way to add more leg work? My legs are behind and I don't have the energy to add leg exercises to other days, especially since I've thrown in a few exercises for my lagging abs and forearms. Would it be okay to add another leg day?

[13thsunn]

Looks like a bro split mixed with 5/3/1 numbers...

[phagtastic]

If they were all done to failure then you have over-estimated your 1RM's. Most people manage at least 10-12 reps on the first week, but you might just not be that good at repping out. Doesn't matter you will still progress, hopefully next cycle you can at least match the reps you hit on the first cycle. keep it up!

Today was my 5/3/1 deadlift day. I only hit 2 reps of 315 for my 1+ set.

Should I still bump the training max weight up for the next cycle? I have complete confidence in knowing that I can easily hit at LEAST 1 rep, up to 365 pounds (my max). I'm just not good at repping like you said...

[naokiudo]

Sorry if this has already been asked but, can I tweak the accessory work a bit ?
I work out at home and I don't have machines or stuff like that, even tho i can do most of the routine.

[13thsunn]

Sorry if this has already been asked but, can I tweak the accessory work a bit ?
I work out at home and I don't have machines or stuff like that, even tho i can do most of the routine.

Just tweak it till it's actually 5/3/1

[kaoyaku]

Current SS 5RM's
Weight: 170
squat 250
bench 190
dead 290
Press 115
Been on SS for 6 months, looking to lean up for summer while also getting stronger. Think i can handle this program?

[geneswest]

Looks like a bro split mixed with 5/3/1 numbers...

What if I told you.. bro-splits work? Given you have a set progression and are eating in a surplus and you are working hard, you will make gains. Especially with the added frequency. I'm sorry I'm much more knowledgable, stronger, and have a better physique than you. Join Date: March 2014

Today was my 5/3/1 deadlift day. I only hit 2 reps of 315 for my 1+ set.

Should I still bump the training max weight up for the next cycle? I have complete confidence in knowing that I can easily hit at LEAST 1 rep, up to 365 pounds (my max). I'm just not good at repping like you said...

Progress as normal, you should still be able to hit required reps.

Current SS 5RM's
Weight: 170
squat 250
bench 190
dead 290
Press 115
Been on SS for 6 months, looking to lean up for summer while also getting stronger. Think i can handle this program?

Of course you can handle the program.. if SS isn't working for you then by all means hop onto this program.. if you are getting good gains from SS why switch?

[B1GR3DDD]

looks interesting, ill definitely test it out next week and see how i like it. quick question tho, you have the days labeled right. does that mean you do that exercise that day too? example, day one is titled bench press, do you do that along with the other stuff?

Thanks

[geneswest]

looks interesting, ill definitely test it out next week and see how i like it. quick question tho, you have the days labeled right. does that mean you do that exercise that day too? example, day one is titled bench press, do you do that along with the other stuff?

Thanks

yes ... that's the main point of the program

[13thsunn]

What if I told you.. bro-splits work? Given you have a set progression and are eating in a surplus and you are working hard, you will make gains. Especially with the added frequency. I'm sorry I'm much more knowledgable, stronger, and have a better physique than you. Join Date: March 2014

****ing lol. Don't get stressed with me. And don't try and come off as knowledgeable. This split is ****. the only thing that makes sense is the 5/3/1 part of it, which u just copied straight from Wendler. and since Wendler has mentioned several times his program shouldn't be customized, he'd probably puke in his mouth seeing your split.

[geneswest]

****ing lol. Don't get stressed with me. And don't try and come off as knowledgeable. This split is ****. the only thing that makes sense is the 5/3/1 part of it, which u just copied straight from Wendler. and since Wendler has mentioned several times his program shouldn't be customized, he'd probably puke in his mouth seeing your split.

I don't care what you think, nor does anyone who has done this approach and made excellent gains. I think you don't understand that as long as you have a structured program that incorporates the big 3 or at least the main compound movements, and you put in the effort and eat in a surplus, you will progress. This is just another program to stick to, there is no magic program.
Don't get me wrong, now that I'm advanced I wouldn't follow this to the tee, I'd probably do something more like the original 5/3/1 if I was to ever hop back on 5/3/1 and add in a little more accessory. But this hybrid encourages the beginner lifters to train strength as well as hypertrophy because this has set progression on the big 3 and there's plenty of accessory work which will attract the beginner lifters. I'm trying to help those lifters out because a lot of them push away programs like SS or madcows because they feel like they won't gain size due to lack of accessory..

OP what do you recommend for rep ranges on the accessory work when cutting? I've been aiming for 10 reps and been increasing the weight on my accessories every 2 "weeks" but I guess I gotta switch it up since I'm cutting.

When cutting you would want to lower the training volume so deduct 1 working set off each exercise IMO (except the main lifts), and when cutting 6-10 typically is the best because you want to be preserving strength and lifting heavy, but throwing in some 12-15 rep sets won't hurt after some heavier low rep stuff.

[bravo96]

Just tweak it till it's actually 5/3/1

Given that 5/3/1 is basically a set out progression scheme and not a cookie cutter routine how is this not 5/3/1??

You don't have to follow wendlers exact templates to be doing 5/3/1. He has stated many times that he believes a program should have a strength, hypertrophy and conditioning aspect to it. How you integrate these in you routine is pretty individual.

[13thsunn]

Given that 5/3/1 is basically a set out progression scheme and not a cookie cutter routine how is this not 5/3/1??

You don't have to follow wendlers exact templates to be doing 5/3/1. He has stated many times that he believes a program should have a strength, hypertrophy and conditioning aspect to it. How you integrate these in you routine is pretty individual.

Guessing you haven't read any of Wendlers books or many of his articles, because he has repeatedly mentioned to follow the program the way he has laid it out, or don't do it at all. Which means not lifting over 4 days a week, taking a deload week after every 3 or 6 week cycle (depending on which variation you're doing), using a training max and increasing it only as much as he recommends, and not doing so much mindless assistance. Not going to reread what op typed out but he pretty much disregarded all of that. Probably not going to respond in here after this post but this isn't 5/3/1. This is a bro split with a few 5/3/1 ideologies. If you want to do 5/3/1 for real then read the book, preferably Beyond 5/3/1, and take the advice from someone that has been lifting longer than OP has been alive.....i think.

[geneswest]

Guessing you haven't read any of Wendlers books or many of his articles, because he has repeatedly mentioned to follow the program the way he has laid it out, or don't do it at all. Which means not lifting over 4 days a week, taking a deload week after every 3 or 6 week cycle (depending on which variation you're doing), using a training max and increasing it only as much as he recommends, and not doing so much mindless assistance. Not going to reread what op typed out but he pretty much disregarded all of that. Probably not going to respond in here after this post but this isn't 5/3/1. This is a bro split with a few 5/3/1 ideologies. If you want to do 5/3/1 for real then read the book, preferably Beyond 5/3/1, and take the advice from someone that has been lifting longer than OP has been alive.....i think.

Wendlers original 5/3/1 if done by a person new to the gym will not make optimal gains, you can't argue that. It was designed for the more advanced lifter. this "version" or whatever you like to call it is taking the rep scheme from 5/3/1 and increasing the frequency and volume which will be more optimal for beginner lifters.. do you really think a beginner needs a de-load week every 3-6 weeks.. no. An advanced lifter would not progress on this for very long because we all know progress is a lot harder to come by when your lifts are at a certain level, so the normal 5/3/1 is a better option, in saying that there are a lot of different programs out there for advanced lifters..
could you honestly say that the people who have ran this program and have made excellent gains i.e turning there 1RM into a 5RM within like 1-2 months or adding 30-40lbs on there lifts in the same amount of time could have made better progress on the original 5/3/1? No, because the normal 5/3/1 calls for slower progression. I'm not going to argue about this program any more, it is simply a tool I've given the beginner-intermediate lifters of this forum to make faster progress and have a direction in their training.

[NZninja101]

Guessing you haven't read any of Wendlers books or many of his articles, because he has repeatedly mentioned to follow the program the way he has laid it out, or don't do it at all. Which means not lifting over 4 days a week, taking a deload week after every 3 or 6 week cycle (depending on which variation you're doing), using a training max and increasing it only as much as he recommends, and not doing so much mindless assistance. Not going to reread what op typed out but he pretty much disregarded all of that. Probably not going to respond in here after this post but this isn't 5/3/1. This is a bro split with a few 5/3/1 ideologies. If you want to do 5/3/1 for real then read the book, preferably Beyond 5/3/1, and take the advice from someone that has been lifting longer than OP has been alive.....i think.

Lets be real. Wendler wouldn't even WANT people doing his program unless their lifts are at a certain level... A level that 99% of people here are yet to attain, and of which this program is one of the best ways to get to that level. He doesn't tell people not to fuk with the program because he thinks that things have to be exactly his way, he says that because in the real world not being staunch about your program results in more people being idiots and turning it into a stupid program.


Jim Wendler probably told people not to mess with his program KNOWING that people would, and that they would do absolutely fine for themselves. He said what he said to minimize stupidity. And this program is far from stupid. It's freakin logical. Progress every session when you can, (SS), then when you can't, progress every second session, (Madcows). Then when you can't do that, progress every third session, (this).

Wendlers original 5/3/1 if done by a person new to the gym will not make optimal gains, you can't argue that. It was designed for the more advanced lifter. this "version" or whatever you like to call it is taking the rep scheme from 5/3/1 and increasing the frequency and volume which will be more optimal for beginner lifters.. do you really think a beginner needs a de-load week every 3-6 weeks.. no. An advanced lifter would not progress on this for very long because we all know progress is a lot harder to come by when your lifts are at a certain level, so the normal 5/3/1 is a better option, in saying that there are a lot of different programs out there for advanced lifters..
could you honestly say that the people who have ran this program and have made excellent gains i.e turning there 1RM into a 5RM within like 1-2 months or adding 30-40lbs on there lifts in the same amount of time could have made better progress on the original 5/3/1? No, because the normal 5/3/1 calls for slower progression. I'm not going to argue about this program any more, it is simply a tool I've given the beginner-intermediate lifters of this forum to make faster progress and have a direction in their training.

This. 5/3/1 is relatively impractical in its original form because you simply have to be so god damn advanced to be able to justify the frequency, speed of progression, and to actually require the 1 week deload every 4 weeks. What we have right here is virtually the missing evolutionary link in strength training. You've got SS with its linear gains, Madcows with its weekly progression... But then there's original 5/3/1 which is half a world away. This program in this thread has weight progression every 3 sessions, with no deloads for young guys who are ready to get stronger but don't because they're afraid of displeasing King Wendler. It's a really intelligent blend of progression for intermediates.

[Huskarl]

I want to ''rest'' a little from only powerlifting focus after my meet. Will give this a try. Gonna change some exercises but pretty much the same. Wish me luck

[geneswest]

I want to ''rest'' a little from only powerlifting focus after my meet. Will give this a try. Gonna change some exercises but pretty much the same. Wish me luck

good luck, should enjoy running this.

Because I wrote this version around 7 months ago, this is an updated list of exercises I would perform


DAY 1
BENCH PRESS 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Incline DB or BB Press (4 sets)
Tricep Pushdowns OR BB/DB Skull crushers (3 sets)
Machine Chest Fly or Cable Crossover (3 sets)
Machine Chest Press (2-3 sets)
Face Pulls (2 sets)

DAY 2
DEADLIFT 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Barbell Rows (3 sets).
Pull Ups (3 sets).
Cable Rows (3 sets).
DB/Barbell Curl (3 sets).
Hammer Curl (3 sets).

DAY 3-
OHP 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Close Grip Paused Bench Press (3 sets)
DB OHP (3 sets).
Side Raises (3 sets).
Face Pulls (3 sets).
Shrugs (3 sets).

DAY 4
SQUAT 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
High Bar Paused Squat (3 sets)
Stiff Legged Deadlifts (BB or DB) (3 sets).
Leg Extensions (3 sets).
Calf Raises (3 sets).
Leg Curls (3 sets).

If you want accessory more geared towards powerlifting, I advise something like this:

DAY 1
BENCH PRESS 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Incline Bench Press (3 sets)
Spoto Press (3 sets)
Machine Chest Fly or Cable Crossover (3 sets)
Face Pulls (2 sets)

DAY 2
DEADLIFT 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Deficit Deadlift OR Rack/Block Pull (3 sets)
Barbell Rows (3 sets).
Pull Ups (3 sets).
DB/Barbell Curl (3 sets).
Hammer Curl (3 sets).

DAY 3-
OHP 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Close Grip Paused Bench Press (3 sets)
Flat DB Press (2-3 sets)
Side Raises (3 sets).
Face Pulls (3 sets).
Shrugs (3 sets).

DAY 4
SQUAT 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
High Bar Paused Squat OR Front Squat (3 sets)
Stiff Legged Deadlifts (BB or DB) (3 sets).
Leg Extensions (3 sets).
Calf Raises (3 sets).
Leg Curls OR GHR (3 sets).

[Cleveland33]

Guessing you haven't read any of Wendlers books or many of his articles, because he has repeatedly mentioned to follow the program the way he has laid it out, or don't do it at all. Which means not lifting over 4 days a week, taking a deload week after every 3 or 6 week cycle (depending on which variation you're doing), using a training max and increasing it only as much as he recommends, and not doing so much mindless assistance. Not going to reread what op typed out but he pretty much disregarded all of that. Probably not going to respond in here after this post but this isn't 5/3/1. This is a bro split with a few 5/3/1 ideologies. If you want to do 5/3/1 for real then read the book, preferably Beyond 5/3/1, and take the advice from someone that has been lifting longer than OP has been alive.....i think.

That's not entirely true. He says things like that because he is tired of being bombarded with emails asking if this personalized version is good.

However, if you can actually think your way out of a paper bag and make adjustments to his program that make sense he is all for it. I know this from personal experience of speaking/emailing him several times with adjustments I have made and received his blessings. Additionally, if you really come up with good ideas, he has gone and incorporated those into the program - like "last sets first" that came from an email to him.

The main thing here is don't completely decimate the program and try to blame it when it doesn't work. The OP here has stated up front that he heavily personalized this program to tailor his needs. He doesn't call it 5/3/1 - he calls it his own version of it. And if it is working, then it's not a problem.

[kaoyaku]

Of course you can handle the program.. if SS isn't working for you then by all means hop onto this program.. if you are getting good gains from SS why switch?

Im gonna be playing soccer this summer and need to get my cardio up so i feel squatting 3x a week while also getting good cardio (or HIIT) would be tough. Whereas with this program i could schedule my cardio around squat day/game day and stay more fresh for these while getting more gains than i would squatting 3x a week while im tired. Maybe i just need to eat more. What you think?

[bravo96]

Guessing you haven't read any of Wendlers books or many of his articles, because he has repeatedly mentioned to follow the program the way he has laid it out, or don't do it at all. Which means not lifting over 4 days a week, taking a deload week after every 3 or 6 week cycle (depending on which variation you're doing), using a training max and increasing it only as much as he recommends, and not doing so much mindless assistance. Not going to reread what op typed out but he pretty much disregarded all of that. Probably not going to respond in here after this post but this isn't 5/3/1. This is a bro split with a few 5/3/1 ideologies. If you want to do 5/3/1 for real then read the book, preferably Beyond 5/3/1, and take the advice from someone that has been lifting longer than OP has been alive.....i think.

IMO opinion what he's saying is don't **** with HIS templates, do them as written which I agree with. But if someone has at least enough common sense to lay out a sensible setup what's wrong with that.

What your saying is changing a few exercises makes it no longer 5/3/1. So I'll ask you this what happens when you stall on your assistance work using one of wendlers templates... Are you gonna just keep bashing your head against the wall using the same exercise and rep scheme, or are you going to either change the rep range or exercise?

If your answer is the first one your a ****ing idiot! Your routine must evolve as you do and refusing to vary from something that isn't progressing because it slightly changes wendlers template, than I would say your incredibly stupid.

[13thsunn]

IMO opinion what he's saying is don't **** with HIS templates, do them as written which I agree with. But if someone has at least enough common sense to lay out a sensible setup what's wrong with that.

What your saying is changing a few exercises makes it no longer 5/3/1. So I'll ask you this what happens when you stall on your assistance work using one of wendlers templates... Are you gonna just keep bashing your head against the wall using the same exercise and rep scheme, or are you going to either change the rep range or exercise?

If your answer is the first one your a ****ing idiot! Your routine must evolve as you do and refusing to vary from something that isn't progressing because it slightly changes wendlers template, than I would say your incredibly stupid.

I can tell you have not read any of the books, so you're talking out of your ass and you totally misunderstand the point of this program. His templates in the book are optional, so is the assistance work. What's not optional is increasing lifting days in the week, taking out deloads, TM, etc. As far as the assistance work goes, they're up to yourself to decide what you want, but they should not be the focus of the program. The OHP, squat, bench and squat should be the main focus of the program.

So I'll ask you this what happens when you stall on your assistance work using one of wendlers templates... Are you gonna just keep bashing your head against the wall using the same exercise and rep scheme, or are you going to either change the rep range or exercise?

If you're that worried about stalling on assistance lifts then you probably shouldn't do 5/3/1.

Didn't even come here to argue, and to be clear, cause this is my last post in here, yeah this program will probably "work" to an extent. I don't think it will work that long though. I think OP said the 5/3/1 progression is too slow or whatever, but if you think about it, it's really not. On paper you're just increasing the weight every 3 weeks 5lb on upperbody and 10lb on lower body but that's just the training max. If someone is utilizing joker sets then they can lift as heavy as they can every workout. If 'Beyond 5/3/1' didn't exist, I'd probably do what op recommends except the assistance lifts he posted. But overall the information wendler has in 'beyond 5/3/1' is untouchable for people new to powerlifting or just trying to gain strength in general.

[strengthsthetic]

relevant

[CyclistOfPeace]

in on this. will report back after a couple cycles.

[Baconguy]

Running it on a cut? Yay or nay?

Done one 3 week stretch so far, no additional cardio. Haven't felt too burnt out. But I don't want to drive myself into the ground, got important exams coming up.

[NZninja101]

Just to provide a summary for the minor changes made.

DAY 1- Bench Press

Accessory Work:
Incline DB Press (3 sets).
Incline DB Flys (3 sets).
Close Grip Bench Press (3 sets).
Tricep Pushdowns (3 sets).
Machine Chest Press (2 sets).

Into

DAY 1
BENCH PRESS 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Incline DB or BB Press (4 sets)
Tricep Pushdowns OR BB/DB Skull crushers (3 sets)
Machine Chest Fly or Cable Crossover (3 sets)
Machine Chest Press (2-3 sets)
Face Pulls (2 sets)

Powerlifting template


DAY 1
BENCH PRESS 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Incline Bench Press (3 sets)
Spoto Press (3 sets)
Machine Chest Fly or Cable Crossover (3 sets)
Face Pulls (2 sets)

DAY 2- Deadlifts

Accessory Work:
Barbell Rows (3 sets).
Pull Ups (3 sets).
Cable Rows (3 sets).
DB/Barbell Curl (3 sets).
Hammer Curl (3 sets).

Into

DAY 2
DEADLIFT 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Barbell Rows (3 sets).
Pull Ups (3 sets).
Cable Rows (3 sets).
DB/Barbell Curl (3 sets).
Hammer Curl (3 sets).

Powerlifting template


DAY 2
DEADLIFT 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Deficit Deadlift OR Rack/Block Pull (3 sets)
Barbell Rows (3 sets).
Pull Ups (3 sets).
DB/Barbell Curl (3 sets).
Hammer Curl (3 sets).

DAY 3- OHP

Accessory Work:
Paused Bench Press (3 sets).
DB OHP (3 sets).
Side Raises (3 sets).
Face Pulls (3 sets).
Shrugs (3 sets).

Into

DAY 3-
OHP 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Close Grip Paused Bench Press (3 sets)
DB OHP (3 sets).
Side Raises (3 sets).
Face Pulls (3 sets).
Shrugs (3 sets).

Powerlifting template


DAY 3-
OHP 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
Close Grip Paused Bench Press (3 sets)
Flat DB Press (2-3 sets)
Side Raises (3 sets).
Face Pulls (3 sets).
Shrugs (3 sets).

DAY 4- Squats

Accessory Work:
Stiff Legged Deadlifts (3 sets).
ATG High Bar Squat (2 sets)
Leg Extensions (3 sets).
Calf Raises (3 sets).
Leg Curls (2 sets).

Into

DAY 4
SQUAT 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
High Bar Paused Squat (3 sets)
Stiff Legged Deadlifts (BB or DB) (3 sets).
Leg Extensions (3 sets).
Calf Raises (3 sets).
Leg Curls (3 sets).



Powerlifting template

DAY 4
SQUAT 5/3/1 SETS
Accessory Work:
High Bar Paused Squat OR Front Squat (3 sets)
Stiff Legged Deadlifts (BB or DB) (3 sets).
Leg Extensions (3 sets).
Calf Raises (3 sets).
Leg Curls OR GHR (3 sets).

[Cleveland33]

<snip>

a couple things to really keep in mind when running 5/3/1 or any variation type of it.

First, it is strictly a program for getting stronger - same as any 5x5 variation. The key to remember here is that it is NOT a program for "aesthetics." You can tweak it to incorporate that, but that will limit the strength gains. Even if you follow the BBB template for it, that again is for strength and size - but it's not something that is going to help you get "ripped" just bigger. Again, if you try to tweak it, you're going in the wrong direction. Following the guidelines is gonna gas you too much to do the isolation work necessary for the aesthetics.

Secondly - Wendler does make a lot of points that get glossed over, but should be repeated. Your first assistance lift every day should be a BB lift. Again, this is for optimal strength. He also lists out his top assistant lifts per major lift: for OHP, it is close grip bench. For bench, it's incline bench (with a BB, not DB). For deads it is the front squat; and for squats it is the straight leg DL (or Romanian).

Again, doing these and programming them correctly, they are gonna tax you so much that the isolation movements needed for bodybuilding are gonna be limited.

Also, he never claims this to be a beginner program and it really isn't - unless you are an older beginner because they'll need the deload. And most people don't need to deload that often early on - but writing it to try and explain to people when to deload more often would be too complicated. It's not a program designed to jump on for three months and then switch to something else, it's a very long term program and it's much much easier to keep everything the same throughout.

You can absolutely create a bodybuilding style template for 531, but understand that it will slow down the strength gains. Just because you are not upping the training maxes more than what is called for, you can make strength gains every month setting new 5x and 3x (and others) rep maxes.

[Monyistbitu]

The cutting version of the program is still 6 days a week (or do you reduce frequency as well), but each of the accessories is cut by 1 set? So instead of 3, it is 2 for each accessory?

Please clarify, as I'm currently cutting.

How would you advise your beginner 3 day version on a cut? 4 days a week? Or simply switching to the original version?

[geneswest]

The cutting version of the program is still 6 days a week (or do you reduce frequency as well), but each of the accessories is cut by 1 set? So instead of 3, it is 2 for each accessory?

Please clarify, as I'm currently cutting.

How would you advise your beginner 3 day version on a cut? 4 days a week? Or simply switching to the original version?

In this version you are required to lift 5-6 days a week.. 6 days if bulking and recovery is sufficient but I would recommend 5 if cutting and also dropping a set off the accessory work.