Sore...

[GetBigs]

Hey Guys,

I'm a beginner so I'd like to ask this question: I had a workout yesterday, went pretty hard at it, did deadlifts (trapbar), squats, standing overhead presses. Like I said I went hard at it, my legs were just insane after it, but today I don't feel it as much as I did yesterday.

Is being sore important at all? Or should I just focus on adding more and more weight to my exercises as time goes by? (like 10 pounds/week)

[rdferguson]

Being sore isn't important. Progress in small doses based on successful completion of reps with good technique.

[Lawless10]

Wait and see how you are tomorrow I find I am worse 2 days after. Also feeling sore isn't as important as once thought. What's important is diet, rest and progressive overload. Personally if I finish full sets then i go up 10lbs or 5kg.

[scullin]

Being sore is not important but you might be sore in a day or two because you're new at this. After a while you will stop getting sore for the most part though. I almost never get sore anymore from lifting. I get joint pain sometimes but not usually muscle soreness unless I do a movement I haven't done in a while or am working at 1RM or close to it.

[walkintgall]

So.... your body adjusts to the pain of muscle tears? (2a/2b) so you can tear muscles and after awhile not feel it? I don't buy it. I'm new at this too but everytime I'm not sore I switch it up. Bam! I'm sore. And feeling great. I personally feel that its a cop out for the fear of changing a workout routine that some one is fond too. Can someone share why soreness isn't important. ... with science?

[DeltaCharlie75]

So.... your body adjusts to the pain of muscle tears? (2a/2b) so you can tear muscles and after awhile not feel it? I don't buy it. I'm new at this too but everytime I'm not sore I switch it up. Bam! I'm sore. And feeling great. I personally feel that its a cop out for the fear of changing a workout routine that some one is fond too. Can someone share why soreness isn't important. ... with science?

Highly recommend this routine for you http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=153675871

[GetBigs]

Wait and see how you are tomorrow I find I am worse 2 days after. Also feeling sore isn't as important as once thought. What's important is diet, rest and progressive overload. Personally if I finish full sets then i go up 10lbs or 5kg.

First of all, thanks everyone for the help.

I'd like to ask you, by saying "if I finish full sets then I go up 10lbs or 5kg", you mean "if I'm able to complete more than 12 repetitions with the same weight, then in the course of the next training session, I add 5kg"?

[RockCrab]

Highly recommend this routine for you http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=153675871

Repped.





Beat me to it . . .

[walkintgall]

DOmS (BIOLOGY) muscular mechanical hyperalgesia (neuroscience) directly relate muscle soreness and muscle growth. Sure nutrition may help the recovery but if you have no muscle pain after work outs you ain't trying hard enough.

[SuffolkPunch]

DOmS (BIOLOGY) muscular mechanical hyperalgesia (neuroscience) directly relate muscle soreness and muscle growth. Sure nutrition may help the recovery but if you have no muscle pain after work outs you ain't trying hard enough.

This is not true for people doing higher frequency programming... but they still make progress. Doing legs once a week is a great way to get DOMS for 3 days... doing it 2-3 times gives me virtually none and I get better progress over time.

[walkintgall]

This is not true for people doing higher frequency programming... but they still make progress. Doing legs once a week is a great way to get DOMS for 3 days... doing it 2-3 times gives me virtually none and I get better progress over time.

Higher frequency training target your slow twitch muscle fibers which causes hardly any underlying muscle fiber tears ( 2a 2b) and limit the release of ATP.
Volume and definition come from the 2a 2b Muscle fibers. (Heavy lifting x 9-12 reps)

[SuffolkPunch]

Higher frequency training target your slow twitch muscle fibers which causes hardly any underlying muscle fiber tears ( 2a 2b) and limit the release of ATP.
Volume and definition come from the 2a 2b Muscle fibers. (Heavy lifting x 9-12 reps)

ALL fibers are trained with any load much overy 70% of 1RM so I have no idea what you are talking about. If this were true, nobody would grow off high frequency programs and yet they do.

[Jasonk282]

DOmS (BIOLOGY) muscular mechanical hyperalgesia (neuroscience) directly relate muscle soreness and muscle growth. Sure nutrition may help the recovery but if you have no muscle pain after work outs you ain't trying hard enough.

No, not true

Higher frequency training target your slow twitch muscle fibers which causes hardly any underlying muscle fiber tears ( 2a 2b) and limit the release of ATP.
Volume and definition come from the 2a 2b Muscle fibers. (Heavy lifting x 9-12 reps)

again, not true.

[walkintgall]

No, not true



again, not true.

Show something backed up from real evidence so I can correct myself.

Higher reps will cause muscle/strength growth but it's not as optimal compared to other frequency training and Plus, 20+ Reps at a70% 1mr would in my mind not be a true 70%,.

I'm not trying to say who s right vs wrong just relating my information I read from books by DOCTORS and world title holders. Not some fitness magazine or from what bro Told another bro. So if you just say "Not true because I said so" with no credible source of information is worthless. I'm opening minded, I'm just curious where you guys get this information because I don't troll like the most of you.

[Determinednoob]

I'm not sure how anyone could think the frequency of training could have an affect on which fibers are being worked in any or all training sessions. Maybe you confused frequency with intensity?

[SkydogGinsberg]

Show something backed up from real evidence so I can correct myself.
...
I'm not trying to say who s right vs wrong just relating my information I read from books by DOCTORS and world title holders. Not some fitness magazine or from what bro Told another bro. So if you just say "Not true because I said so" with no credible source of information is worthless. I'm opening minded, I'm just curious where you guys get this information because I don't troll like the most of you.

DOmS (BIOLOGY) muscular mechanical hyperalgesia (neuroscience) directly relate muscle soreness and muscle growth.

No branch of science -- perhaps other than pseudo-science quackery -- has observed a direct soreness:muscle hypertrophy relationship. Since you're making the claim of scientific evidence, the onus is on you to provide that evidence.

Higher frequency training target your slow twitch muscle fibers which causes hardly any underlying muscle fiber tears ( 2a 2b) and limit the release of ATP.

The notion that higher frequency promotes different fiber activation is patently false: you're saying that Type II fibers are activated by "x reps/x intensity" on Mondays only. Then that activation switches over to Type I if trained also on Wednesdays and Fridays. Fiber types don't have scheduling secretaries and dayplanner journals, bro'.

[SuffolkPunch]

Anyone who ignores legions of anecodtal evidence in favor of some pet theory is not much of scientist.

[ThickAsABrick]

For the more advanced on lower frequency, higher volume routines, there is often a relationship between soreness and growth to some degree (depending on a variety of different factors.) It can also be used to see how certain exercises hit certain muscle groups.

For you and others that are new or relatively new to training, it is probably not something to worry about just yet. Focus on the more easily measureable for now. When you know your body better, you can put more stock in other types of feedback (pump, soreness, etc) in addition to other variables.

[Jasonk282]

Show something backed up from real evidence so I can correct myself.

Higher reps will cause muscle/strength growth but it's not as optimal compared to other frequency training and Plus, 20+ Reps at a70% 1mr would in my mind not be a true 70%,.

I'm not trying to say who s right vs wrong just relating my information I read from books by DOCTORS and world title holders. Not some fitness magazine or from what bro Told another bro. So if you just say "Not true because I said so" with no credible source of information is worthless. I'm opening minded, I'm just curious where you guys get this information because I don't troll like the most of you.

DOMS just mean that you have done something that your muscles are not used to do. Keep doing that movement over and over, with adding weight and you'll not have DOMS, but your muscle is still growing.

If you squat 1x a week you'll have major DOMS for 3-4 days. If you squat 2-3 times a week you'll have DOMS for 1 to zero days. The more often you do something the less sore you muscle gets. Which is why people, as beginners can squat 3x a week and have zero DOMS while adding 15-30 lbs to their squat in a week.

DOMS are also a great way to find out if a new movement hits your target muscles that your after. Say you have week hamstring, by adding RDLs and notice DOMS in your hamstrings the next few days you'll knwo if you're hitting the weak point. After a few weeks on doing RDLs you'll notice that you'll no longer get DOMS, does that mean that your muscle is no longer getting strong...no.

I to read book...not written by 'doctors' but by actual strength athletes, Jim Wendler, Paul Carter and Brandon Lilly for example.

[SkydogGinsberg]

For the more advanced on lower frequency, higher volume routines, there is often a relationship between soreness and growth to some degree (depending on a variety of different factors.)

You reckon that's more indicative side effect as a result of a parameter increase? ... i.e. "I added 20lbs to the bar and did more reps -- and I noticed DOMS." The parameter increase is the direct contributor to growth, and the soreness is an "also happened" result. Vs the contested notion, "directly relate muscle soreness and muscle growth."

It can also be used to see how certain exercises hit certain muscle groups.

Definitely true.

[Determinednoob]

From my experience training at lower frequency that I was capable off, I think the 1x\week just gives anough rest time to get back to the zomg I'm doing something new type soreness. Seemed to be particularly pronounced with legs presumably because there is no overlap with any other training day.

[scullin]

For you science geeks that want to read about this chit. http://saveyourself.ca/articles/dela...e-soreness.php

Personally I say it's a waste of time worrying about it. You work though it and eventually get used to it and the pain goes away. You don't have to change your workout and seek the soreness. That's a bunch of bullchit. And if you think someone isn't working hard enough if they don't get sore that's also bullchit. If they put an inch on their arms, legs, whatever and / or getting stronger, they're working hard enough and it's working for them.

[ThickAsABrick]

You reckon that's more indicative side effect as a result of a parameter increase? ... i.e. "I added 20lbs to the bar and did more reps -- and I noticed DOMS." The parameter increase is the direct contributor to growth, and the soreness is an "also happened" result. Vs the contested notion, "directly relate muscle soreness and muscle growth."

Tough to say for certain, as that's definitely a part of the equation. The other major parts are total volume and exercise selection. I think you are aware of this, but I am not referring to soreness simply from change - we all know that is not particularly useful. I'm assuming all ducks are in a row.

Obviously not being sore does not mean a workout was ineffective, but for bodybuilding style training, being sore in the muscle group(s) you targeted is typically a good thing in my experience. I am not proposing people use soreness as their main gauge, but I believe in paying attention to all types of feedback. Over time one can analyze and determine how much stock to put into each one. I personally find the statement "soreness means nothing" to be inaccurate.

[Determinednoob]

I personally find the statement "soreness means nothing" to be inaccurate.

do you think that as with many things may also be somewhat dependent on the training level of the individual?

[ThickAsABrick]

do you think that as with many things may also be somewhat dependent on the training level of the individual?

Yes.

I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to articulate that in my earlier post.

[Lawless10]

First of all, thanks everyone for the help.

I'd like to ask you, by saying "if I finish full sets then I go up 10lbs or 5kg", you mean "if I'm able to complete more than 12 repetitions with the same weight, then in the course of the next training session, I add 5kg"?

Yeah I would if I were you.

[walkintgall]

No branch of science -- perhaps other than pseudo-science quackery -- has observed a direct soreness:muscle hypertrophy relationship. Since you're making the claim of scientific evidence, the onus is on you to provide that evidence.


The notion that higher frequency promotes different fiber activation is patently false: you're saying that Type II fibers are activated by "x reps/x intensity" on Mondays only. Then that activation switches over to Type I if trained also on Wednesdays and Fridays. Fiber types don't have scheduling secretaries and dayplanner journals, bro'.

1) Since you have so much time to troll, you would think you would have time to do some actual research as well.
tried to post links but i couldnt. (post count low)

2) Really? REALLY? "Individual muscles are a mixture of 3 types of muscle fibers (type 1, type 2a and type 2b), but their proportions vary depending on the action of that muscle. It must be remembered that skeletal muscles, although a mixture, can only have one type of muscle fiber within a motor unit. This is demonstrated if we look at contractions. E.g. ******* READ THIS HERE ********* JESUS( ********If a weak contraction is needed only the type 1 motor units will be activated. These fibers are used mainly for endurance activities. If a stronger contraction is required the type 2a fibers will be activated or used to assist the type 1 fibers. ********* Maximal contractions facilitate the use of type 2b fibers which are always activated last. These fibers are used during ballistic activities but tire easily. With advanced EMG techniques it is possible to look at which muscle fibers are recruited when performing an exercise/test. The total number of skeletal muscle fibers has traditionally been thought not to change. It is believed there are no sex or age differences in fiber distribution, however, relative fiber types vary considerably from muscle to muscle and person to person. Sedentary men and women (as well as young children) have 45% type 2 and 55% type 1 fibers.[citation needed] People at the higher end of any sport tend to demonstrate patterns of fiber distribution e.g. endurance athletes show a higher level of type 1 fibers. Sprint athletes, on the other hand, require large numbers of type 2 b fibers. Middle distance event athletes show approximately equal distribution of the 2 types. This is also often the case for power athletes such as throwers and jumpers. It has been suggested that various types of exercise can induce changes in the fibers of a skeletal muscle.[4] It is thought that if you perform endurance type events for a sustained period of time, some of the type 2b fibers transform into type 2a fibers. However, there is no consensus on the subject. It may well be that the type 2b fibers show enhancements of the oxidative capacity after high intensity endurance training which brings them to a level at which they are able to perform oxidative metabolism as effectively as slow twitch fibers of untrained subjects. This would be brought about by an increase in mitochondrial size and number and the associated related changes not a change in fiber type." - end qoute. DA fuq?

DOMS just mean that you have done something that your muscles are not used to do. Keep doing that movement over and over, with adding weight and you'll not have DOMS, but your muscle is still growing.

If you squat 1x a week you'll have major DOMS for 3-4 days. If you squat 2-3 times a week you'll have DOMS for 1 to zero days. The more often you do something the less sore you muscle gets. Which is why people, as beginners can squat 3x a week and have zero DOMS while adding 15-30 lbs to their squat in a week.

DOMS are also a great way to find out if a new movement hits your target muscles that your after. Say you have week hamstring, by adding RDLs and notice DOMS in your hamstrings the next few days you'll knwo if you're hitting the weak point. After a few weeks on doing RDLs you'll notice that you'll no longer get DOMS, does that mean that your muscle is no longer getting strong...no.

I to read book...not written by 'doctors' but by actual strength athletes, Jim Wendler, Paul Carter and Brandon Lilly for example.

DOMS IS a reaction to torn muscle fibers. Fact. Period. Read books by DR's that our pro athletes like JIM or Doug Miller (he has a degree but not a PHD).

For you science geeks that want to read about this chit.

Personally I say it's a waste of time worrying about it. You work though it and eventually get used to it and the pain goes away. You don't have to change your workout and seek the soreness. That's a bunch of bullchit. And if you think someone isn't working hard enough if they don't get sore that's also bullchit. If they put an inch on their arms, legs, whatever and / or getting stronger, they're working hard enough and it's working for them.

For some people BB/fitness is a lifestyle and want to be the most effective as they can be. Your body adapts to what you throw at it. When its doesnt "react" your muscle fibers have strengthened to be able to handle the work load you put on them. You no longer tear fibers, you no longer experience DOMS; but you will experience limited growth (if any) and eventually a plateau. Your body WILL adjust, just like your NERVOUS system.

[scullin]

For some people BB/fitness is a lifestyle and want to be the most effective as they can be.

Thanks, I'm new to this. Only been doing it since the late '80s. I never wanted to be effective whatever that's supposed to mean.

Your body adapts to what you throw at it. When its doesnt "react" your muscle fibers have strengthened to be able to handle the work load you put on them. You no longer tear fibers, you no longer experience DOMS; but you will experience limited growth (if any) and eventually a plateau. Your body WILL adjust, just like your NERVOUS system.

Muscle confusion is a myth. Progressive resistance works, adding volume works, add enough calories and growth will come. Subtract calories and cuts will come. Everyone plateaus once they hit their genetic peak unless they use drugs, then they can go beyond obviously.

There’s no link between muscle soreness and protein synthesis; no link between muscle soreness and long-term growth; and no link between muscle soreness and muscle fiber damage.

Muscle soreness happens when you create enough total damage to aggravate the connective tissues. This will sometimes correlate with a muscle-stimulating, growth-inducing workout. But just as often, it has nothing to do with muscle stimulation.

Just because you’re not sore doesn’t mean your muscles aren’t inflamed and growing. Likewise, sore muscles don’t mean you had a good workout.

DOMS itself will be caused by any eccentric exercise that you do for enough total reps. The less accustomed you are to that type of exercise, the worse the soreness will be after the fact.

The actual tissue damage you do in a workout is a result of both high intensity and large volume. The more of either, or both, the more ‘damage’ will result. Some ‘damage’ is good, as it seems to link to satellite cell activity, but too much is bad.

Since we can’t use DOMS as a reliable indicator of muscle fiber ‘damage’ or growth remodeling, it’s pointless to use DOMS as a sign that you’ve effectively worked your muscles.

http://www.myosynthesis.com/articles...uscle-soreness

[Jasonk282]

I guess by JIM you mean stopani. If si that's your problem in the first place. The bb.com main site is nothing but brosciencetist supplement pimps

[SkydogGinsberg]

1) Since you have so much time to troll, you would think you would have time to do some actual research as well.
tried to post links but i couldnt. (post count low)

Still waiting for you to provide some actual evidence to your claim of direct relationship found by "science". Post count is no excuse -- you can modify the link, if necessary so it posts. Oddly, the only mention of "trolling" in this thread is from you, twice. Sounds a lot like that "who farted in the room?" thing from the perpretrator.

2) Really? REALLY? "Individual muscles are a mixture of 3 types of muscle fibers (type 1, type 2a and type 2b), but their proportions vary depending on the action of that muscle. It must be remembered that skeletal muscles, although a mixture, can only have one type of muscle fiber within a motor unit. This is demonstrated if we look at contractions. E.g. ******* READ THIS HERE ********* JESUS( ********If a weak contraction is needed only the type 1 motor units will be activated. These fibers are used mainly for endurance activities. If a stronger contraction is required the type 2a fibers will be activated or used to assist the type 1 fibers. ********* Maximal contractions facilitate the use of type 2b fibers which are always activated last. These fibers are used during ballistic activities but tire easily. With advanced EMG techniques it is possible to look at which muscle fibers are recruited when performing an exercise/test. The total number of skeletal muscle fibers has traditionally been thought not to change. It is believed there are no sex or age differences in fiber distribution, however, relative fiber types vary considerably from muscle to muscle and person to person. Sedentary men and women (as well as young children) have 45% type 2 and 55% type 1 fibers.[citation needed] People at the higher end of any sport tend to demonstrate patterns of fiber distribution e.g. endurance athletes show a higher level of type 1 fibers. Sprint athletes, on the other hand, require large numbers of type 2 b fibers. Middle distance event athletes show approximately equal distribution of the 2 types. This is also often the case for power athletes such as throwers and jumpers. It has been suggested that various types of exercise can induce changes in the fibers of a skeletal muscle.[4] It is thought that if you perform endurance type events for a sustained period of time, some of the type 2b fibers transform into type 2a fibers. However, there is no consensus on the subject. It may well be that the type 2b fibers show enhancements of the oxidative capacity after high intensity endurance training which brings them to a level at which they are able to perform oxidative metabolism as effectively as slow twitch fibers of untrained subjects. This would be brought about by an increase in mitochondrial size and number and the associated related changes not a change in fiber type." - end qoute. DA fuq?

Despite the voluminous blah-blah, there's nothing in here to indicate your assertion regarding frequency. All you've done with the above, is quote a wikipedia article that describes "what is a fiber type?". Now quote something more relevant about your actual claims. Fiber types still don't switch activation according to scheduled week day no matter how much "wind" you put into a post.