Ice Cream Fitness: Novice 5x5 For Bodybuilders: Part II

[Peter2013]

I have done this program for couple months. I have a question, would it be better if i do SLSL instead of Hyperextention. Also, whenever I do skullcrusher, I feel like it hit my chest more than my triceps, So, is there any exercise that I can do to replace skullcrusher?

[Bandit1987]

How shud i judge if a lift is faild or not? like when im squating how bad can my form be and i can still concider it to be complette lift? i tend to len forward on the squat when my back gets tierd. I uploaded a video to youtube, Can u guys tell me what u think? shud i concider this to be a faild lift? this is set 3 of 5

/watch?v=wVbRQSg6yOM&feature=youtu.be

[Mdenatale]

I have done this program for couple months. I have a question, would it be better if i do SLSL instead of Hyperextention. Also, whenever I do skullcrusher, I feel like it hit my chest more than my triceps, So, is there any exercise that I can do to replace skullcrusher?

I was doing good mornings in place of Hypers, since I have no good way to do hypers at home. I suppose SLDL could replace them too.

If you feel skullcrushers in the chest more than the triceps them you probably aren't doing them correctly. Odds are you are doing them more like a pullover. Mark Rippetoe has a great YouTube video on how to do them correctly. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rh3MHnRI_I

[Mdenatale]

How shud i judge if a lift is faild or not? like when im squating how bad can my form be and i can still concider it to be complette lift? i tend to len forward on the squat when my back gets tierd. I uploaded a video to youtube, Can u guys tell me what u think? shud i concider this to be a faild lift? this is set 3 of 5

/watch?v=wVbRQSg6yOM&feature=youtu.be

Its borderline. You didn't "cheat" so I normally wouldn't call it a fail, but I see what you mean. You are leaning quite a bit and not a smooth on the last rep. I personally prefer to play it cautious. If I feel that I didn't knock it out then I would do it again next time. If it feels better then move on. If its the same or worse then reset.

[Bandit1987]

Ok, Well 110 kg didnt feel that great either but. After that last set i drop the wight down to 100kgs and did the 2 last sets whit that. so that on its own means its a faild:P but maybe it feels better next workout

Its borderline. You didn't "cheat" so I normally wouldn't call it a fail, but I see what you mean. You are leaning quite a bit and not a smooth on the last rep. I personally prefer to play it cautious. If I feel that I didn't knock it out then I would do it again next time. If it feels better then move on. If its the same or worse then reset.

[BambooBesar]

Hi All,

How would this program compare to the AllPro program? What are the fundamental differences and which would you recommend for what type of goals?

Thanks

[mbaoo]

Sup guys, here are my current lifts. This my second week.

Legpress = 370 x5x5 -- easy mode. I could probably stack 2 more 45s on and keep progressing nicely, but I havnt done lower body in years, so I don't want to hurt myself going to fast
Bench = 165 x5x5
Row = 115 x5x5 -- I have always been weak with rows. Decided to focus on good form and go slow as I went up in weight to fast last time and couldn't even do full range squeeze at the top
Deadlift = 230x5x1
OHP = 95x5x4 --failed on last two reps, only got to 3 on the 5th set
Shrugs - only like 135, still trying to figure out form as it feels awkward
Skull crusher - 60x3x8
Barbell Curl - 60x3x8
Hyper extensions - 2x8 with 25lb plate. Still trying to work up to 10 reps.
Kneeling cable crunk - this is pretty easy shockingly since I never do abs. Can max out the machine which is around 200lbs
CGBP = 95 3x8

[Tupperwolf]

Hi All,

How would this program compare to the AllPro program? What are the fundamental differences and which would you recommend for what type of goals?

Thanks

I ran All Pro's for almost 5 full cycles before switching to ICF. It was an excellent introduction to barbell training. If you are a total newbie I highly recommend it over this program because you will have more time to build solid form on the exercises before they start getting really heavy.

All Pro's:
-slow progression, start light
-no deloads required as they are built in to the program
-higher rep range, less rest, good for endurance
-only takes about 45 minutes to complete
-no deadlifts

ICF:
-fast progression, every training session is heavy
-deloading/weight resets required
-low rep range, very taxing, 3-5 minutes rest between sets
-takes 1.5 hours minimum to complete (some of my sessions up to 2.5 hours)
-build strength fast!
-deadlifts!

IMO All Pro's is fantastic on a cut (lost 25 lbs, retained muscle mass very well) but is not satisfying on a bulk. I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. When I transitioned from cut to bulk I was full of energy and wanted to do more in the gym. I was really itching to deadlift. If you are of the mindset "lift big, eat big, get big" ICF is great. You need to eat a lot and rest a lot to recover from this program. You also need to have the time available to get the gym sessions done.

WHat are your goals?

[mbaoo]

I have done this program for couple months. I have a question, would it be better if i do SLSL instead of Hyperextention. Also, whenever I do skullcrusher, I feel like it hit my chest more than my triceps, So, is there any exercise that I can do to replace skullcrusher?

I wouldn't. I did SLDLs quite a bit a year ago and I only ever really felt it in my hamstrings. Hyper extensions will isolate the lower/mid back more than a sldl ever will.

[BambooBesar]

I ran All Pro's for almost 5 full cycles before switching to ICF. It was an excellent introduction to barbell training. If you are a total newbie I highly recommend it over this program because you will have more time to build solid form on the exercises before they start getting really heavy.

All Pro's:
-slow progression, start light
-no deloads required as they are built in to the program
-higher rep range, less rest, good for endurance
-only takes about 45 minutes to complete
-no deadlifts

ICF:
-fast progression, every training session is heavy
-deloading/weight resets required
-low rep range, very taxing, 3-5 minutes rest between sets
-takes 1.5 hours minimum to complete (some of my sessions up to 2.5 hours)
-build strength fast!
-deadlifts!

IMO All Pro's is fantastic on a cut (lost 25 lbs, retained muscle mass very well) but is not satisfying on a bulk. I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. When I transitioned from cut to bulk I was full of energy and wanted to do more in the gym. I was really itching to deadlift. If you are of the mindset "lift big, eat big, get big" ICF is great. You need to eat a lot and rest a lot to recover from this program. You also need to have the time available to get the gym sessions done.

WHat are your goals?

Awesome answer - thanks a lot!

My goals are to lose my final stubborn waistline (obviously focused on a caloric deficit) while at the same time building up. I live in a remote place with access to a gym that has basic basic stuff. No proper squat rack and so on.

- As for eating and lifting big, I'm working on a cal deficit, but have my macros at Carb 35%, Protein 45% and Fat 20% - I can eat big, but that seems contrary to the cal def.
- I DO have 1.5 - 2.5 hours for lifting time

Really appreciate your (and everyone else's) advice - that's why I wanted to join a program on the forums.
REP!

[gunnersrus]

what would u reccmmend when my form starts to drop like my form is starting to drop on 120kg squats should I lower it by 10 the following week I managed to do 2 sets then starts droping can feel it it back by this time ?

[charlios82]

I been doing this program for seven weeks and have made good progress. Now, I am at the point where my legs are sore at the next workout session, and I feel I need more than one days rest in-between. I haven't stalled at any workout so far. Do you guys recommend to increase the weight every other session?

Weight 132lbs to 141lbs
Squats 115lbs to 210lbs
BP 105lbs to 155lbs
BR 65lbs to 115lbs
OHP 50lbs to 90lbs
DL 105lbs to 200lbs

[tallbroski]

I been doing this program for seven weeks and have made good progress. Now, I am at the point where my legs are sore at the next workout session, and I feel I need more than one days rest in-between. I haven't stalled at any workout so far. Do you guys recommend to increase the weight every other session?

Weight 132lbs to 141lbs
Squats 115lbs to 210lbs
BP 105lbs to 155lbs
BR 65lbs to 115lbs
OHP 50lbs to 90lbs
DL 105lbs to 200lbs

If you completed the last workout with good form then yes increase the weight. Maybe try doing less impact cardio like walking or cycling, it might help with soreness on your legs.

[DBlueWolverine]

what would u reccmmend when my form starts to drop like my form is starting to drop on 120kg squats should I lower it by 10 the following week I managed to do 2 sets then starts droping can feel it it back by this time ?

O
Never compromise your form..
Go for -10% the next workout.

[babooz]

I feel like the volume is too much for my taste, I leave the gym very exhausted and not feeling good. What can be done to lower the volume? I currently do monday/wed/fri. Can I move abs to tues/thursday?

[Mdenatale]

I feel like the volume is too much for my taste, I leave the gym very exhausted and not feeling good. What can be done to lower the volume? I currently do monday/wed/fri. Can I move abs to tues/thursday?

Are you currently eating in a surplus or deficit. There is a cutting version of this routine. The 5x5's become 3x5 and the 3x8 go to 2x8. You also up the weight every other time.

Another option is to go to the core of this routine which is stronglifts. Drop the accessories, of course you aren't doing ICF 5x5 at that point anymore.

You might also want to check out All-Pro's beginner routine.

[BLK00TJ]

Well I ran the program on a cut keeping on the 5x5, but after today, I think I'm going back to 3x5 for the remainder of my cut (~3-5lbs left). I haven't stalled on any lifts, but my joints are aching. This may be the first time I'm happy for a weekend and a two day rest since I started ICF. Both elbows, my hips, and my shoulders are aching more than usual. The hips are sore from my lack of mobility that I've been working on but the elbows and shoulders started this week. I'm at 210sq, 185b, 110p, and 255d and I feel that I still have room before stalling especially on the deadlifts.

[Krarrr]

I've been on this for 3 serious month, I'm seeing great strength and size (omg legs)
BUT my chest is officially really lacking. My abs are almost past it. Also, the upper part of my chest looks nonexistant. What additional chest exercises can I add?
I know I'm not supposed to, but I have to do something right there.

[0rders]

I ran All Pro's for almost 5 full cycles before switching to ICF. It was an excellent introduction to barbell training. If you are a total newbie I highly recommend it over this program because you will have more time to build solid form on the exercises before they start getting really heavy.

All Pro's:
-slow progression, start light
-no deloads required as they are built in to the program
-higher rep range, less rest, good for endurance
-only takes about 45 minutes to complete
-no deadlifts

ICF:
-fast progression, every training session is heavy
-deloading/weight resets required
-low rep range, very taxing, 3-5 minutes rest between sets
-takes 1.5 hours minimum to complete (some of my sessions up to 2.5 hours)
-build strength fast!
-deadlifts!

IMO All Pro's is fantastic on a cut (lost 25 lbs, retained muscle mass very well) but is not satisfying on a bulk. I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. When I transitioned from cut to bulk I was full of energy and wanted to do more in the gym. I was really itching to deadlift. If you are of the mindset "lift big, eat big, get big" ICF is great. You need to eat a lot and rest a lot to recover from this program. You also need to have the time available to get the gym sessions done.

WHat are your goals?

I've been stalling on ICF and I'm thinking of switching FROM ICF to allpros. I made a thread in this section about it. thoughts?

[babooz]

Are you currently eating in a surplus or deficit. There is a cutting version of this routine. The 5x5's become 3x5 and the 3x8 go to 2x8. You also up the weight every other time.

Another option is to go to the core of this routine which is stronglifts. Drop the accessories, of course you aren't doing ICF 5x5 at that point anymore.

You might also want to check out All-Pro's beginner routine.

I'm bulking

[Tupperwolf]

I've been stalling on ICF and I'm thinking of switching FROM ICF to allpros. I made a thread in this section about it. thoughts?

Keeping in mind that I am a novice and this is mostly speculation, after ICF it will certainly feel different. You might feel like you're not getting much done compared to the volume in ICF, especially when you are in and out of the gym in 45 minutes. Be sure to accurately calculate your 10 rep max before starting. Allpros should help with the stalling as the deloads are built in. You may still find that you miss lifts on test day at the end of the cycle, but that happens to everyone and you shouldn't let it discourage you. Going from 5 reps up to 12 is going to challenge your endurance.

I've been running ICF for a few months now myself (second time running it, I followed it for about 6 weeks before burning out completely, took a week off and then fell off the training wagon for about 3 months due to work) and am getting pretty tired out despite eating everything in sight. I'm starting to think about going to a push/pull/legs routine, myself.

BTW congrats on your progress so far, your starting weight of 118 lbs sounds very low, you should be proud.

[HDStretchman]

I've been stalling on ICF and I'm thinking of switching FROM ICF to allpros. I made a thread in this section about it. thoughts?

I'm on C1W2D3 today. The weights got heavy enough for me to start to fear the barbell. That not in control feeling, which, IMO, is mental, but the thing is, doing all pros with some serious starting weight is good. I can't imagine running it for a year to get to the same point as with about 2.5 months of ICF.

Since ICF is a strength routine, you'll get strnger a lot faster than you'll get bigger. OK, but danger will robinson if your body can't take the weight and something gives out. Not all of us are athletes who run strength concurrent with other training. All pros is more balanced at a different rep range to get you to grow more. Kind of a 50/50 split.

You don't really lose anything by doing a lateral switch. Calculate your 1rm for the lifts in ICF, then use the 10rm to determine your starting weight in All Pros. By the end of the first cycle you're doing 12 reps, which means you are getting stronger. You're also building endurance, which is great for being able to hold your form better. Plus, it has you dropping some exercises, and doing others more. Those exercises are going to target the groups where most beginners lag in a 5x5. It's all good, brah, run it for at least 2 cycles, maybe 3, and odds are you aren't going to hit the heaviest weight you ever did on ICF, so know it's doable. Then come back to ICF and watch your totals start cruising up. All Pro himself recommends a 5x5 after doing his routine.

Trust these guys. They know what they are doing. Do what they say, and pretty soon you will too.

[Hardgainer2000]

What are the starting weights for both the compound and assistance?

[BLK00TJ]

What are the starting weights for both the compound and assistance?

That's covered in the intro video. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...63&pagenumber=

75% of 1RM for 5x5s and 65% of 1RM for 3x8s

[0rders]

Keeping in mind that I am a novice and this is mostly speculation, after ICF it will certainly feel different. You might feel like you're not getting much done compared to the volume in ICF, especially when you are in and out of the gym in 45 minutes. Be sure to accurately calculate your 10 rep max before starting. Allpros should help with the stalling as the deloads are built in. You may still find that you miss lifts on test day at the end of the cycle, but that happens to everyone and you shouldn't let it discourage you. Going from 5 reps up to 12 is going to challenge your endurance.

I've been running ICF for a few months now myself (second time running it, I followed it for about 6 weeks before burning out completely, took a week off and then fell off the training wagon for about 3 months due to work) and am getting pretty tired out despite eating everything in sight. I'm starting to think about going to a push/pull/legs routine, myself.

BTW congrats on your progress so far, your starting weight of 118 lbs sounds very low, you should be proud.

Thank you! Good job on getting back into training! I hope Allpro's is going to help me break through my plateaus.

I'm on C1W2D3 today. The weights got heavy enough for me to start to fear the barbell. That not in control feeling, which, IMO, is mental, but the thing is, doing all pros with some serious starting weight is good. I can't imagine running it for a year to get to the same point as with about 2.5 months of ICF.

Since ICF is a strength routine, you'll get strnger a lot faster than you'll get bigger. OK, but danger will robinson if your body can't take the weight and something gives out. Not all of us are athletes who run strength concurrent with other training. All pros is more balanced at a different rep range to get you to grow more. Kind of a 50/50 split.

You don't really lose anything by doing a lateral switch. Calculate your 1rm for the lifts in ICF, then use the 10rm to determine your starting weight in All Pros. By the end of the first cycle you're doing 12 reps, which means you are getting stronger. You're also building endurance, which is great for being able to hold your form better. Plus, it has you dropping some exercises, and doing others more. Those exercises are going to target the groups where most beginners lag in a 5x5. It's all good, brah, run it for at least 2 cycles, maybe 3, and odds are you aren't going to hit the heaviest weight you ever did on ICF, so know it's doable. Then come back to ICF and watch your totals start cruising up. All Pro himself recommends a 5x5 after doing his routine.

Trust these guys. They know what they are doing. Do what they say, and pretty soon you will too.

So are you saying that basically All pros will give me greater size gains than ICF 5x5? A lot of this is about having your mind in the game and focusing on the weight, once you manage to do that the gains will come. All in all I believe All pros will do me good.

Is it alright if I pm you if I have any questions? You seem to know what you're talking about.


Both of your posts convinced me to switch, i'm starting on Tuesday, thanks a lot!

[Hardgainer2000]

That's covered in the intro video. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...63&pagenumber=

75% of 1RM for 5x5s and 65% of 1RM for 3x8s

Got it thanks!

[Tupperwolf]

Thank you! Good job on getting back into training! I hope Allpro's is going to help me break through my plateaus.



So are you saying that basically All pros will give me greater size gains than ICF 5x5? A lot of this is about having your mind in the game and focusing on the weight, once you manage to do that the gains will come. All in all I believe All pros will do me good.

Is it alright if I pm you if I have any questions? You seem to know what you're talking about.


Both of your posts convinced me to switch, i'm starting on Tuesday, thanks a lot!

Yes I believe so. All pro's is a very well thought out, well programmed routine. It is made specifically for beginners, and you may be tempted to change things, but you will find that everyone recommends sticking to the routine exactly as written and be patient. You will find that the first two weeks feel very easy because you're doing less than your max. Week 3 you're moving your max. Weeks 4 and 5 you're doing more reps than you could do when you started, and then you add weight and start all over again. By the time you get to the 3rd cycle you are moving the same weight on your easy day that you were moving on the hard day of your first cycle.

Again, after ICF it may feel too easy, but just stick with it to give it a fair shot. I think you may see more size gains. I have definitely gained strength on ICF (squats up over 100lbs!) but I haven't gained as much size as I'd like, which is why I'm thinking about abandoning ship for a P/P/L.

[0rders]

Yes I believe so. All pro's is a very well thought out, well programmed routine. It is made specifically for beginners, and you may be tempted to change things, but you will find that everyone recommends sticking to the routine exactly as written and be patient. You will find that the first two weeks feel very easy because you're doing less than your max. Week 3 you're moving your max. Weeks 4 and 5 you're doing more reps than you could do when you started, and then you add weight and start all over again. By the time you get to the 3rd cycle you are moving the same weight on your easy day that you were moving on the hard day of your first cycle.

Again, after ICF it may feel too easy, but just stick with it to give it a fair shot. I think you may see more size gains. I have definitely gained strength on ICF (squats up over 100lbs!) but I haven't gained as much size as I'd like, which is why I'm thinking about abandoning ship for a P/P/L.

Yeah I would assume that I'm going to start out light but it will become difficult over time. But what am I supposed to do if I for example fail one of my sets on week 3/4? Do I continue like nothing happened or do I lower the weights?

Also 100lbs is very impressive! No doubt that ICF is working well for you. A lot of people have had success with a P/P/L routine, but I believe that it is intended for Intermediates. But if your lifts are high enough I don't see how switching routines will do any harm at all. If that is the case you will most likely get better gains.

[Tupperwolf]

Yeah I would assume that I'm going to start out light but it will become difficult over time. But what am I supposed to do if I for example fail one of my sets on week 3/4? Do I continue like nothing happened or do I lower the weights?

Also 100lbs is very impressive! No doubt that ICF is working well for you. A lot of people have had success with a P/P/L routine, but I believe that it is intended for Intermediates. But if your lifts are high enough I don't see how switching routines will do any harm at all. If that is the case you will most likely get better gains.

If you fail on week 3/4 just continue on. Week 5 heavy day is your test day. If you get all sets/reps with good form, add weight for the next cycle for that exercise. If not, repeat the same weight. I failed a couple of times on OHP and BP but given another 5 weeks to work on form I was always able to pass the next time around and add weight. It's a more conservative progression.

My current lifts are squat 5x5 270lbs BP 5x5 180lbs DL 1x5 325lbs.

[Cranz]

JasonDB has said that both programs will very similar in regards to adding size as long as your diet is in check. However, ICF will add strength faster.

In my opinion, All Pro is great, but I feel it's much more suited for a total newbie who never went to the gym, or someone who is cutting. If I'm bulking, I'll give it my all on an aggressive routine like SS/SL5x5, I just feel that this type of progression is much better on a cut. ( That's entirely a personal preference ).