AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part IIII

[GKC45]

Here it is, below.

People have this irrational issue with a "fail" on test day, so I've read a few dumb things people have tried like taking longer rests to hit it, or trying again on a second test day in W5, squeeze out the last couple reps with crappy form, etc. There's nothing at all wrong with having a failure and re-doing the weight. It's going to happen to everyone sooner or later, by design. It's not until you fail ~3 cycles in a row where you're "stalled" . And if you're failing on the second set, you still got 12 reps of what was your 10-rep max, so congrats, you gained strength.

I agree with you for the most part, but I think "irrational" is perhaps a bit dramatic. People like to succeed. They don't like to be delayed. So in that sense, it's quite rational to not want to fail. The most important thing is to be honest with yourself. Keep your ego out of it and be realistic about your abilities.

There is nothing "dumb" about taking the full 90 seconds on heavy days. Heck, why not just do the sets with a 4 second rest? Obviously strength recuperates with time. We are all much stronger after 90 seconds than after 30 seconds. The trick is keeping it inside the 90 second window allpro prescribed.

[GKC45]

Is there any way to replace calf raises with another exercise?

I know this is not right but I really feel this exercise does not work for me.

I felt the same about barbell curls, and I replaced them with upright rows and I'm completely satisfied.

I prefer compound moves over isolation...

Yes, you can replace it with another calf exercise.

Every other page of this thread has someone explaining why they don't like a particular exercise, or why they can develop a better routine, or how they have magic muscles that are different from everyone else.

For craps sake, just run the program for three cycles before screwing it up.

Better yet, read the first few pages of the thread and find the answer to 99% of the questions asked.

[clarkecm]

Yes, you can replace it with another calf exercise.

Every other page of this thread has someone explaining why they don't like a particular exercise, or why they can develop a better routine, or how they have magic muscles that are different from everyone else.

For craps sake, just run the program for three cycles before screwing it up.

Better yet, read the first few pages of the thread and find the answer to 99% of the questions asked.

Lol you have been just slaying people lately! I get a good chuckle out of it.

[FrankFF]

Here it is, below.

People have this irrational issue with a "fail" on test day, so I've read a few dumb things people have tried like taking longer rests to hit it, or trying again on a second test day in W5, squeeze out the last couple reps with crappy form, etc. There's nothing at all wrong with having a failure and re-doing the weight. It's going to happen to everyone sooner or later, by design. It's not until you fail ~3 cycles in a row where you're "stalled" . And if you're failing on the second set, you still got 12 reps of what was your 10-rep max, so congrats, you gained strength.

I am with you partly on this but also agree with GKC45 I think irrational and dumb are a bit strong. People wish to succeed and weight lifting is about pushing yourself. I failed bench and OHP on my last test day but I was aware that I had not had a full nights sleep for at least the 3 prior to test day. Given that I knew this was the case do you think I should have stuck with the program and stuck with the same weight for the next five weeks? Personally I would have found that to be quite a de-motivator.

I would also add that I am having no problems with the weighs on the next cycle.
Since joining this community I have learned more about weightlifting, using this program and others. I have also read much of what Allpro wrote while he still used the board, so know that he is very knowledgeable, this has given me a greater respect for this program.
With all the reading I have done I would make one change to this program and that would be; on test day if you fail the second set of any exercise by 1 or 2 reps then you should retest that exercise on you light day. This gives the trainee a second shot at moving on which I feel will help keep a more positive motivation.

You have to strike a balance between being honest about your progress and yourself keeping motivated.


FrankFF

[clarkecm]

I am with you partly on this but also agree with GKC45 I think irrational and dumb are a bit strong. People wish to succeed and weight lifting is about pushing yourself. I failed bench and OHP on my last test day but I was aware that I had not had a full nights sleep for at least the 3 prior to test day. Given that I knew this was the case do you think I should have stuck with the program and stuck with the same weight for the next five weeks? Personally I would have found that to be quite a de-motivator.

I would also add that I am having no problems with the weighs on the next cycle.
Since joining this community I have learned more about weightlifting, using this program and others. I have also read much of what Allpro wrote while he still used the board, so know that he is very knowledgeable, this has given me a greater respect for this program.
With all the reading I have done I would make one change to this program and that would be; on test day if you fail the second set of any exercise by 1 or 2 reps then you should retest that exercise on you light day. This gives the trainee a second shot at moving on which I feel will help keep a more positive motivation.

You have to strike a balance between being honest about your progress and yourself keeping motivated.


FrankFF

Test day is the big day. I think on that day you have to bring the best you have. If you've had a bad nights sleep have a nap in the middle of the day before cranking it out or wait until the following day. I don't like the idea of a retest on a single exercise on the light day. If you fail and you want to re-test I think you should recreate the test day; that is you should have to repeat the entire heavy day its sort of like a penalty for not bringing your best stuff on test day.

Just my two cents.

[DeltaCharlie75]

I don't like the idea of a retest on a single exercise on the light day. If you fail and you want to re-test I think you should recreate the test day; that is you should have to repeat the entire heavy day its sort of like a penalty for not bringing your best stuff on test day.

Just my two cents.

Have to agree with this. If I fail an exercise and think its down to a bad day then I will drop the med and light workouts and have another test day for all the exercises two days after the original. No point in just doing the one exercise as you will get a false result in terms of the program.

[FrankFF]

Have to agree with this. If I fail an exercise and think its down to a bad day then I will drop the med and light workouts and have another test day for all the exercises two days after the original. No point in just doing the one exercise as you will get a false result in terms of the program.

That is another option but when I though about this if you still did your medium day then retested on your light just for a single exercise I think it would be fine as you would still have residual fatigue from not having a full two days recovery.

Test day is the big day. I think on that day you have to bring the best you have. If you've had a bad nights sleep have a nap in the middle of the day before cranking it out or wait until the following day. I don't like the idea of a retest on a single exercise on the light day. If you fail and you want to re-test I think you should recreate the test day; that is you should have to repeat the entire heavy day its sort of like a penalty for not bringing your best stuff on test day.

Just my two cents.

Speaking personally I didn't have a bad nights sleep because I was up watching TV or partying I had three bad nights sleep in a row because that was all time I had in my schedule to sleep so If I don't get enough time to sleep at night how am I supposed to make time to get an afternoon nap? While I love my lifting it is a pasttime that has to fit in around all the other commitment I have in my life. Also as an observation do you think that having an extra rest day before your test would skew the results as much as retesting for a single exercise during you light day?

I also find you language interesting in the second point I bolded out. Part of what I do for a living is train sports coaches, I would question why you would see hard work as a penalty? I would happily do three heavy days a week but I know enough about the subject to realise that I would start to burn out and stall pretty quickly if did. Even with just two heavy days a week after three or four cycle the strain would be to much and failure would become more common.
That would become pretty de-motivating pretty quick.




FrankFF

[RBZen]

Yesterday was Test Day, and I passed Squats, Bent Over Rows and Calf Raises. Failed the rest.

Not terribly surprised, it IS getting really heavy.

Cycle 4 stats:

Squat: 205
Bench Press: 195
Bent OVer Rows: 125
Over head Press: 115
Stiff Legged Deadlift: 225
Curls: 75
Calf Raises: 250

I'm definitely super sore and looking forward to Cycle 1....


And since I just finished Cycle 3, I'm adding pull ups to my workout plan. But it's going to he assisted pull ups, as I can only do one rep of pull ups. So I'll have to find my assisted 10RM sometime this week.

[DeltaCharlie75]

That is another option but when I though about this if you still did your medium day then retested on your light just for a single exercise I think it would be fine as you would still have residual fatigue from not having a full two days recovery.

FrankFF

You will have residual fatigue but, other than squats, you will not be exposing the muscle to the full workload that it would receive on a heavy day ie you fail sldl and retest it, the muscles will be exposed to 20% less workload for that day compared to a normal test day due to all the preceding exercises being done in the light day weight. By doing it this way you are bringing too many variables in that can not be accounted for ie level of fatigue, level of recovery.
As both options are not part of the program, you have to do what you think is best for you.

[FitnessFan76]

Have to agree with this. If I fail an exercise and think its down to a bad day then I will drop the med and light workouts and have another test day for all the exercises two days after the original. No point in just doing the one exercise as you will get a false result in terms of the program.

Knowing my luck, I'd end up passing the one I failed, and failing one or more of the ones I passed.

[GKC45]

Test day is the big day. I think on that day you have to bring the best you have. If you've had a bad nights sleep have a nap in the middle of the day before cranking it out or wait until the following day. I don't like the idea of a retest on a single exercise on the light day. If you fail and you want to re-test I think you should recreate the test day; that is you should have to repeat the entire heavy day its sort of like a penalty for not bringing your best stuff on test day.

Just my two cents.

You will have residual fatigue but, other than squats, you will not be exposing the muscle to the full workload that it would receive on a heavy day ie you fail sldl and retest it, the muscles will be exposed to 20% less workload for that day compared to a normal test day due to all the preceding exercises being done in the light day weight. By doing it this way you are bringing too many variables in that can not be accounted for ie level of fatigue, level of recovery.
As both options are not part of the program, you have to do what you think is best for you.

I agree 100% with everything bolded.

It's not a retest if you don't prefatigue all the other muscle groups to the same level as heavy day. Remember, these are all compound exercises, not isolation exercises.

To do this correctly, you need to take two days of rest and do a full retest on the third day (i.e. test Monday/retest Thursday).

[FrankFF]

You will have residual fatigue but, other than squats, you will not be exposing the muscle to the full workload that it would receive on a heavy day ie you fail sldl and retest it, the muscles will be exposed to 20% less workload for that day compared to a normal test day due to all the preceding exercises being done in the light day weight. By doing it this way you are bringing too many variables in that can not be accounted for ie level of fatigue, level of recovery.
As both options are not part of the program, you have to do what you think is best for you.

I think this strikes at the truth of the matter but between both of the offered alternatives I think its six of one and a half dozen of the other. As I said in my earlier post I think that the only downside of the program is that if you fail a lift on test day by the slightest margin you "reset" back to a point five weeks earlier. I think in most other beginners programs you have another shot and only if you fail twice do you "reset".

FrankFF

[Defgarden]

Learned a lesson today. I went to the gym a bit later than I wanted to, and it was a bit more crowded. All the benches were packed the whole time. Anyway, I kept my eyes open for a bench, but then decided to do rows, then looked for a bench, no luck, then did OHP, and on and on until I basically did bench press last. Horrible idea, I couldn't finish my second set and it's only week 2.

Lesson learned: Do the exercises in order.

[banjoman23]

I've read all 4 threads, and while it didn't come up specifically when he was around, I'm 99.64% sure All Pro would say just repeat the weight for a cycle, don't try to finagle a second test day.

It's worth noting that each time you trade the 3 days for 2 heavy, you're giving up a little bit of volume. Yes, All Pro recommended to do this when you can't do 3x per week, and he had some good quotes about the tradeoff of volume vs intensity that's involved that I could dig up. Being more hypertrophy focused, I'd rather have my high volume each W5 heavy because that's when you're really packing on the muscle mass, than give up some volume for an _attempt_ to say I passed one exercise to increase its weight for one cycle. Doing that once or twice probably won't matter in the long run, but if you end up doing that fairly commonly each W5 heavy across multiple cycles, it just might....

Oh, and if you don't do a second full heavy day and "retest", say, OHP on Friday light day, that's totally different because you haven't toasted your triceps with your bench. OF COURSE you're more likely to "pass", but you're really bastardizing the program.

Just my .02.

[mthawkins08]

My left shoulder blade has a sore/aching feeling when doing the shoulder presses.... Whats the deal with that? I'd rather not injure my self.
Sitting on the couch now after C1, beginning of W2 and it's got this thick aching feeling.

[FrankFF]

I've read all 4 threads, and while it didn't come up specifically when he was around, I'm 99.64% sure All Pro would say just repeat the weight for a cycle, don't try to finagle a second test day.

It's worth noting that each time you trade the 3 days for 2 heavy, you're giving up a little bit of volume. Yes, All Pro recommended to do this when you can't do 3x per week, and he had some good quotes about the tradeoff of volume vs intensity that's involved that I could dig up. Being more hypertrophy focused, I'd rather have my high volume each W5 heavy because that's when you're really packing on the muscle mass, than give up some volume for an _attempt_ to say I passed one exercise to increase its weight for one cycle. Doing that once or twice probably won't matter in the long run, but if you end up doing that fairly commonly each W5 heavy across multiple cycles, it just might....

Oh, and if you don't do a second full heavy day and "retest", say, OHP on Friday light day, that's totally different because you haven't toasted your triceps with your bench. OF COURSE you're more likely to "pass", but you're really bastardizing the program.

Just my .02.

Banjoman, that's a good explanation. I guess I got away with it as it was BP and OHP that I failed.

FrankFF

[GKC45]

I've read all 4 threads, and while it didn't come up specifically when he was around, I'm 99.64% sure All Pro would say just repeat the weight for a cycle, don't try to finagle a second test day.

It's worth noting that each time you trade the 3 days for 2 heavy, you're giving up a little bit of volume. Yes, All Pro recommended to do this when you can't do 3x per week, and he had some good quotes about the tradeoff of volume vs intensity that's involved that I could dig up. Being more hypertrophy focused, I'd rather have my high volume each W5 heavy because that's when you're really packing on the muscle mass, than give up some volume for an _attempt_ to say I passed one exercise to increase its weight for one cycle. Doing that once or twice probably won't matter in the long run, but if you end up doing that fairly commonly each W5 heavy across multiple cycles, it just might....

Oh, and if you don't do a second full heavy day and "retest", say, OHP on Friday light day, that's totally different because you haven't toasted your triceps with your bench. OF COURSE you're more likely to "pass", but you're really bastardizing the program.

Just my .02.

I think you're right.

The trick here is being honest with yourself if you are the .36% he would give a pass too. If you were sick on test day, or really did have a couple hard days before, or some other extreme reason... than maybe you should consider a retest. If you just did ****ty, but you were struggling the week before on 11 reps... than don't kid yourself.

Fail now or fail later.

Eventually everyone is going to fail something. You can not progress 10% every five weeks forever!

[FitnessFan76]

Cycle 3 test day today and I passed everything except curls - I did 11.5 reps of the second work set and literally couldn't raise the bar past parallel. I'm happy though because 'everything' includes my old nemesis - that 20kg OHP! OK, I'll only be putting 2.5kg on the bar next cycle, but at least I won't just be pressing the bar anymore!

Two of my lifts will be passing the 100lb milestone next week - squats and RDL.

So - good news is I get to add 10% weight next week. Bad news is I get to add 10% weight next week. I think I'll add 20% to bench though; I did pass that fairly easily.

[mike_nofx]

I have just finished 4 full cycles on a cut, for those who like numbers, heres how I progressed:

LIFTS (Starting weight to current weight)

Squat - 88lb to 154lb = +75%
Bench - 143lb to 182lb = +27%
BOR - 66lb to 110lb = +67%
OHP - 77lb to 100lb = +29%
SLDL - 88lb to 149lb = +69%
Curls - 66lb to 78lb = +19%
Calfs - 88lb to 149lb = +69%

BODY MEASUREMENTS

Weight - 231.5lb to 216lb = -7%
Fat % - 31% to 27% = -13% (Using online US Navy Calculator)
Chest - 44.6" to 44.3" = -0.6%
Arms (unflexed) 15.55" to 15.04" = -3.3%
Arms (flexed) 16" to 15.94" = -0.5%
Hips - 41.4" to 39.5" = -4.6%
Waist - 43" to 40.5" = -5.9%
Thighs - 25" to 24.5" = -2.2%
Calves - 17" to 16.5" = -3.5%
Forearms - 12.56" to 12.4" = -1.25%
Neck - 15.75" to 15.75" = 0%
Shoulders - tba


I'm mostly quite happy with the above, the weight loss was a bit slower than I would have liked but there were a few hurdles along the way though back on track now.
I'm losing size faster in the right spots (hips waist) and slower in the right spots (Arms - particularly flexed, chest). Body definitely feels a lot firmer in all areas, arms are getting more shape/definition chest feels a lot more solid flexed.

Happy also with how my lifts are progressing, bench, curls and OHP are progressing slowest but that is to be expected as I was training with these lifts for a couple of months before starting this program, not so with any of the other lifts. Squats are going well, I probably could have increased by slightly even more weight each week, but by the start of next cycle I expect to be squatting more than twice my starting weight, I honestly don't see squats stalling for a long time.

[nole984]

Ok I went to the gym today and maxed out on all lifts (im weaker than I thought) but id like for someone to make sure im doing this right. On day 1 u will do sets of 8 with your 10 rep max correct? Then on day 2 u will do sets of 8 with 10% less than your 10 rep max. And day 3 you will do sets of 8 with 20% less than your 10 rep max? Am I understanding this correctly?

[JMcC775]

Think my BOR test day was a fluke. Having grip strength and its very unpleasant on my wrist so ill be lowering the weight a bit and focusing on slower controlled movements. Can't do Ohp because of Shoulder pains (history with it). Everything else went well.

Question for sldl. My lat on my right side feels like its being strained sometimes. The upper part of my lat if that helps. Usually the lift isn't difficult at all because I started low its just this one spot.

[JMcC775]

Ok I went to the gym today and maxed out on all lifts (im weaker than I thought) but id like for someone to make sure im doing this right. On day 1 u will do sets of 8 with your 10 rep max correct? Then on day 2 u will do sets of 8 with 10% less than your 10 rep max. And day 3 you will do sets of 8 with 20% less than your 10 rep max? Am I understanding this correctly?

You sure are. Then next week it's 9 reps. Third is 10 etc. you reach week five at 12 reps.

[nole984]

thanks jmc

[DeltaCharlie75]

I've read all 4 threads, and while it didn't come up specifically when he was around, I'm 99.64% sure All Pro would say just repeat the weight for a cycle, don't try to finagle a second test day.

It's worth noting that each time you trade the 3 days for 2 heavy, you're giving up a little bit of volume. Yes, All Pro recommended to do this when you can't do 3x per week, and he had some good quotes about the tradeoff of volume vs intensity that's involved that I could dig up. Being more hypertrophy focused, I'd rather have my high volume each W5 heavy because that's when you're really packing on the muscle mass, than give up some volume for an _attempt_ to say I passed one exercise to increase its weight for one cycle. Doing that once or twice probably won't matter in the long run, but if you end up doing that fairly commonly each W5 heavy across multiple cycles, it just might....

Oh, and if you don't do a second full heavy day and "retest", say, OHP on Friday light day, that's totally different because you haven't toasted your triceps with your bench. OF COURSE you're more likely to "pass", but you're really bastardizing the program.

Just my .02.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating doing a retest every cycle , it's only if you have a bad day on test day ie you have managed all the previous reps comfortably and are not expecting to fail, but for what ever reason (lack of sleep etc) you fail, then a retest, IMO, would be fine. On the other hand, if you have been struggling with the reps up to twelve then you have to accept that a fail is a fail and redo the weight.

[DeltaCharlie75]

My left shoulder blade has a sore/aching feeling when doing the shoulder presses.... Whats the deal with that? I'd rather not injure my self.
Sitting on the couch now after C1, beginning of W2 and it's got this thick aching feeling.

Is it possibly rc soreness? If so its prob due to poor shoulder mobility. OHP is notorious for exposing weakness in the rc.

[DeltaCharlie75]

Think my BOR test day was a fluke. Having grip strength and its very unpleasant on my wrist so ill be lowering the weight a bit and focusing on slower controlled movements. Can't do Ohp because of Shoulder pains (history with it). Everything else went well.

Question for sldl. My lat on my right side feels like its being strained sometimes. The upper part of my lat if that helps. Usually the lift isn't difficult at all because I started low its just this one spot.

You doing anything instead of OHP?
I have had problems with it and have replaced it with incline hammer press and defrancos shoulder shocker( google t nation article)

[cubaboymatt1316]

Can't do Ohp because of Shoulder pains (history with it).

I've had shoulder impingement issues for about 6 months (tendon issues for about 6 years). After about 8 weeks of PT, my shoulder hardly got any better. After about 8 weeks of lifting since PT ended though....my shoulder feels so much better. I have to be really careful about not overdoing it, and doing the exercises in a super-controlled manner, but wow does it feel so much better.

C1W1 Heavy day complete! Who cares if it was kind of easy (excited to get to week 3!), I was just ready to workout after the weekend! Anyone else feel like its such a LONG time between workout days? I know tomorrow I'm going to just stare at my rack wishing it was Wednesday already!

[albiondavid]

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[redcaesar]

Great progress so far and nice bench! Jealous! Always curious about people that can bench more than they can squat or dead lift.

I have just finished 4 full cycles on a cut, for those who like numbers, heres how I progressed:

LIFTS (Starting weight to current weight)

Squat - 88lb to 154lb = +75%
Bench - 143lb to 182lb = +27%
BOR - 66lb to 110lb = +67%
OHP - 77lb to 100lb = +29%
SLDL - 88lb to 149lb = +69%
Curls - 66lb to 78lb = +19%
Calfs - 88lb to 149lb = +69%

[mike_nofx]

Great progress so far and nice bench! Jealous! Always curious about people that can bench more than they can squat or dead lift.

Thanks. I don't expect bench to be higher than squat for too much longer though.

Just a theory but maybe it's the heavier guys who start off with a higher bench weight, my reasoning is in a squat you are pushing up much of your (heavier) body weight and bigger/heavier guys usually have bigger heavier arms and chest... better for bench.