AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part IIII

[banjoman23]

I thought that he stated you could switch the bicep curl for the upright row because it fits the routine better and the bicep curl was more of an ego related thing

True. But what chicks dig: Gunz > Yoke

Sorry to ask a question on nutrition but I feel I will get a straight answer here. Anyway, my body weight is about 161lbs, and ny body fat is roughly 18-20%. From reading the forums theres a mixed opinion on wether to bulk or cut at my BF. Many seem to think that my BF is to high to bulk. Im also reading that recomp could be a good idea for my size and weight.

Could I ask for peoples opinions on what I should do because im oficially confused and stuck, possibly someone who was in a similar position to me?

You are _completely_ untrained. You would experience gains running a deficit doing plyometrics on a monkeys ass. So when on a solid routine like this, intermediate/advanced lifter rules apply and you MUST do BULK/CUT CYCLES FTW!!!

Edit: Hope you realize that last part was a joke. Some smart people:

Limit the weight gain to not more than 2 pounds per week. Gain 10 pounds then begin reducing calories until you are maintaining your new weight. Be sure to keep track of your waist measurement. The goal at this point is to reduce your waist line while maintaining your weight. Go for a bulk and recomp. Bulk and cut works for drug assisted lifters but it really is an exercise in futility for a natural. Half the weight you lose will be muscle.

From having a background of working with many types of athletes, I got a good laugh out of how almost everyone on BBing forums alternates cutting & bulking cycles. I've seen many athletes develop from skinny-fatsters to solid specimens in a linear fashion over time. Form follows function. Pick one goal, & go with it - as long as you have a realistic perspective of how fast you can progress, you don't have to get caught up in the cuttin/bulking rollercoaster. Once you reach the goal or come damn close, you can decide upon maintenance or other. I prefer the slow 'lean' bulk to the fast fulk followed by the agressive cut in order to get out of fatville. It never appealed to me to look like the michelin man half the time, while trying to strip off that lard the other half of the time. For competitive BBers, it's a different story because they are basically forced into specific phases. But for the recreational trainee, alternating cutting & bulking phases isn't necessary to get where you wanna be. You won't gain muscle faster if you pack on a bunch of chub. Yes, you need a caloric surplus to gain muscle if you're not starting from a deconditioned state, but again, I'd refer folks to the article I linked in order to maintain perspective. Effective surpluses vary with the individual, like anything else. I've said this before & I'll say it again: time & patience are the 2 ingredients that most people don't include in their programs.

[Cranz]

Does anyone body have the compiled pdf which contains All Pro's post in the first thread?

Thanks.

[GreekTrojan]

BB Curls are definitely the most boring exercise for me as well. My poverty arms are hopefully happy I'm doing them, though.

Yup. I'm the type of person who would have loved to do Uprows instead of curls because its a)more entertaining and b)better in theory for people who don't care about "dem gunz" as much but the injury potential scared me off. That and my arms are legitimately the weakest part of my body so curls are actually helpful.

[Ulfit]

Does anyone body have the compiled pdf which contains All Pro's post in the first thread?

Thanks.

I do. I just don't know how to post it here.

[Cranz]

I do. I just don't know how to post it here.

Upload it to a hosting website, then link it on here? You can do it on dropbox,media fire, or any sharing website.

I would really appreciate it, and rep you for it. Thanks you in advance.

[Ulfit]

http://www.filedropper.com/allpronotesandcomments

See if this works.

[Cranz]

http://www.filedropper.com/allpronotesandcomments

See if this works.

It works. Thank you very much.

Repped.

[Ulfit]

Great!

[WalterStark]

True. But what chicks dig: Gunz > Yoke



You are _completely_ untrained. You would experience gains running a deficit doing plyometrics on a monkeys ass. So when on a solid routine like this, intermediate/advanced lifter rules apply and you MUST do BULK/CUT CYCLES FTW!!!

Edit: Hope you realize that last part was a joke. Some smart people:

Yep I did see it as a joke, thanks for your help! From this and reading on the internet, I'm happy to bulk for now at a 10% cal surplus. Will do this for about 3 cycles and see how I feel then, just want to get stronger for now, putting a bit of fat on isn't the end of the world. Can lose it again easily enough!

[FitnessFan76]

Originally Posted by All Pro to a skinny person
Limit the weight gain to not more than 2 pounds per week. Gain 10 pounds then begin reducing calories until you are maintaining your new weight. Be sure to keep track of your waist measurement. The goal at this point is to reduce your waist line while maintaining your weight. Go for a bulk and recomp. Bulk and cut works for drug assisted lifters but it really is an exercise in futility for a natural. Half the weight you lose will be muscle.

Originally Posted by Alan Aragon
From having a background of working with many types of athletes, I got a good laugh out of how almost everyone on BBing forums alternates cutting & bulking cycles. I've seen many athletes develop from skinny-fatsters to solid specimens in a linear fashion over time. Form follows function. Pick one goal, & go with it - as long as you have a realistic perspective of how fast you can progress, you don't have to get caught up in the cuttin/bulking rollercoaster. Once you reach the goal or come damn close, you can decide upon maintenance or other. I prefer the slow 'lean' bulk to the fast fulk followed by the agressive cut in order to get out of fatville. It never appealed to me to look like the michelin man half the time, while trying to strip off that lard the other half of the time. For competitive BBers, it's a different story because they are basically forced into specific phases. But for the recreational trainee, alternating cutting & bulking phases isn't necessary to get where you wanna be. You won't gain muscle faster if you pack on a bunch of chub. Yes, you need a caloric surplus to gain muscle if you're not starting from a deconditioned state, but again, I'd refer folks to the article I linked in order to maintain perspective. Effective surpluses vary with the individual, like anything else. I've said this before & I'll say it again: time & patience are the 2 ingredients that most people don't include in their programs.

OK; now I'm officially confused. Ever since I first joined, everyone has said to limit weight gain to 0.5lbs per week to minimise fat gain, and that once you've put on some weight (of which most is hopefully muscle), then you 'cut'.

What should I do, for example? I started at around 123lbs to 125lbs and I've now put on almost 20lbs - again, hopefully most of it is muscle, but some of it is fat without a doubt. What happens now? I want to 'cut' now to get rid of the belly, and then go on a very slow bulk until I reach my goal weight/BF %. Once there, I won't be 'bulking' and 'cutting' - I'll be maintaining, as being a shorter guy I won't look too good if I end up at 250lbs. But what happens if I go on a slow bulk, reach my goal weight and then discover that I've got some new excess fat that has to go? Right now, 'abs' are not my priority but at some point in the future, I would like to have them - I've never had 'abs' in my life.

As well as that, all the 'gurus' here - IronWill, SuffolkPunch etc say that 'recomping' will just result in most people spinning their wheels. Some clarification would be really appreciated right now guys.

Incidentally, while having my morning glower at the mirror I also did some chest flexing and damn me if I didn't notice some lats popping out, despite the layer of fat. That was nice to see.

[nightanole]

Around the 15% bf mark, a bulk will be 2/3 muscle/glycogen stores and 1/3 fat. On a cut around 15% it will be 1/3 muscle and 2/3 fat. As you can see if you get it wrong you will be just spinning your wheels.

The best advise i can give you is to eat around 100g of fat and 100g of protein a day, and add carbs as needed to add weight to the bar each cycle. Set a goal for your self this winter for lifts. Once you achieve those goals, start cutting back the carbs till you are not progressing. Do this for about 2 cycles. That should get you back to the original waist measurement.

Now once you are in the 10% zone (abs or almost abs) then bulking and cutting is a real pain because it can be 50/50, so it might cost you 2lbs of muscle to drop 2lbs of fat, to be ab-lious. meanwhile the fatties can eat almost nothing and still gain muscle if they are in the 30% range

This is why they say bulk and reconstitute. Another method is just figure out what your goal weight person (say 170lbs) needs to eat to maintain their weight at your activity level and goal bf level, and eat like that. You will gain some fat at first, but then lean out.

[FitnessFan76]

Well, right now I am way above 10%, I'm even way above 15%. I'd actually be quite happy to stick at 15% to be honest. Right now, I'm gradually decreasing calories at 100 per week, to ease into a deficit. Won't taking it slow like that minimise muscle loss?
I did say that I'd like abs at some point, but in all honesty if I was told I could simply flatten my stomach and keep it that way, it would probably do me. Abs would be great of course, but I'd see them as a bonus. After all, abs are only visible when you have your shirt off, whereas a flat stomach (or the opposite) will always be in evidence.

Edit: I'm guessing that my BF% is 20%+ - somewhere between 20% and 25% I'd say. I've put on around 20lbs over six months or so - what's the muscle/fat ratio likely to be, or is it a case of 'how long is a piece of string'? I'm sure I can see new muscle underneath the fat, especially on my legs where I don't carry much fat. My arms look more 'solid' when tensed, I can see more muscle on my forearms and all my shirts feel tighter across the upper back/shoulders.

The very last thing I want to do is end up like a yo-yo, going up and down in weight, but never really getting the body I want. Having said that, any sort of decent fat loss now would at least eliminate this damn belly, so even if that means 'starting from scratch', I'd at least be doing so without the reserve fuel tank. I'm extremely patient - once I've got rid of this fat, I don't give a damn if I only bulk at 0.2lbs per week - there's no way it's coming back. Not only have I never had abs, but I can't ever remember having a flat stomach either, although I guess I must have at some point.

[Roffey99]

With bulking on this routine, doo you still eat at a surplus on rest days/medium and light? Surely this excess food is going to just go on as fat as not working to maximum potential?

Really struggling to see how this will put on mass only going heavy for 1 day, but I'm sure ill get told to stick it out haha!

[Weston1985]

With bulking on this routine, doo you still eat at a surplus on rest days/medium and light? Surely this excess food is going to just go on as fat as not working to maximum potential?

Really struggling to see how this will put on mass only going heavy for 1 day, but I'm sure ill get told to stick it out haha!

Just stick to the program! lol You need to eat at surplus everyday. The reason for this is because your muscles grow and recover during the time after your work out and that "time" isn't limited to just the few hours after you lift but the DAYS after you lift. Your body is recovering, it would be wise to give it the calories it needs to recover AND grow.

The labels "heavy," medium," and "light" are misleading because the uniformed might think you have 1 day where you do real work and 2 days where you slack off but that is the opposite of what you are doing. Doing 2 sets of 10 or more reps at 90% or even 80% of your max weight is HARD so you are still getting benefit from these work outs. Don't think of it as heavy, medium and light days, think of it as Super hard, pretty hard and hard days. Make sense?

[FitnessFan76]

Just stick to the program! lol You need to eat at surplus everyday. The reason for this is because your muscles grow and recover during the time after your work out and that "time" isn't limited to just the few hours after you lift but the DAYS after you lift. Your body is recovering, it would be wise to give it the calories it needs to recover AND grow.

The labels "heavy," medium," and "light" are misleading because the uniformed might think you have 1 day where you do real work and 2 days where you slack off but that is the opposite of what you are doing. Doing 2 sets of 10 or more reps at 90% or even 80% of your max weight is HARD so you are still getting benefit from these work outs. Don't think of it as heavy, medium and light days, think of it as Super hard, pretty hard and hard days. Make sense?

That is a great way to look at it - you should put that in your sig!

[Weston1985]

That is a great way to look at it - you should put that in your sig!

Haha thanks! People who say they think the program is "too easy" are either in the first 2 weeks or they are using too light of weight. It is fine to start light, but then don't complain about the load being easy. If you are using your true 10 rep max you will feel it each and every workout from week 3 on...

[AnthropoidApe]

OK; now I'm officially confused. Ever since I first joined, everyone has said to limit weight gain to 0.5lbs per week to minimise fat gain, and that once you've put on some weight (of which most is hopefully muscle), then you 'cut'.

What should I do, for example?

You should cut to ~12% bf and then stay at 10-15% for the rest of your life, monitoring your waist measurement and cutting each time it gets above an acceptable level, then eating more again once it is back down again... all the while maintaining adequate protein intake and regular progressive weight training. From what you've said it sounds like more of your recent bulk may have been fat than would have been optimal.

You basically need to work out your acceptable waist measurement parameters (30" min - 32" max or whatever) and use those as your guide for the long haul. That's my feeling anyway.

[banjoman23]

You should cut to ~12% bf and then stay at 10-15% for the rest of your life.

^^ This.

Totally agree, Fitness you should cut down to this range, and decide from there. At that point, you'll be something like 8+ cycles in and not-so-beginnerish so cycles will likely be necessary.

If one's skinny and at the lower end of this range, slow bulk. If one's fat, cut. If you're in between and have <6 months solid lifting experience, you have a window where you can do both, why not take advantage of it? It's those folks, where the path isn't obvious but they're beginners, that I hate to see agonizing over which to do, that was my point with the above quotes. If you're more of an intermediate who requires cycles, I'm not going to say you shouldn't be in this beginners thread, but you're probably pretty close to needing to move on. I'm on cycle 10 and had a great recomp, but started bulk/cut cycles on C8 and eyeing Lyle McDonalds generic bulking routine in the near future.

[Tulorrific]

Just finished Cycle 3.

C1 Beginning Weights:
SQ 130
BP 110
BOR 80
MP 60
SLDL 110
Curls 60
Standing CR 230

C4 New Weights:
SQ 170
BP 130
BOR 110
MP 65
SLDL 145
Curls 75
Standing CR 290

Progress.... !!

Weight: 162 > 173

+11lbs in 15 weeks

[FitnessFan76]

^^ This.

Totally agree, Fitness you should cut down to this range, and decide from there. At that point, you'll be something like 8+ cycles in and not-so-beginnerish so cycles will likely be necessary.

If one's skinny and at the lower end of this range, slow bulk. If one's fat, cut. If you're in between and have <6 months solid lifting experience, you have a window where you can do both, why not take advantage of it? It's those folks, where the path isn't obvious but they're beginners, that I hate to see agonizing over which to do, that was my point with the above quotes. If you're more of an intermediate who requires cycles, I'm not going to say you shouldn't be in this beginners thread, but you're probably pretty close to needing to move on. I'm on cycle 10 and had a great recomp, but started bulk/cut cycles on C8 and eyeing Lyle McDonalds generic bulking routine in the near future.

Many thanks for clearing that up, guys. The cut's imminent - I only put on 0.4lbs this week. My 'ideal' waist measurements are probably something like 28in - 30in. Either way, I am looking forwards to seeing the fat gradually melt away.

[chevy72blu]

I'm sure this has been asked but I didnt see it in several dozen pages...

Is there any benefit to adding shoulder shrugs on off days (cardio + abs days)?

[nightanole]

I'm sure this has been asked but I didnt see it in several dozen pages...

Is there any benefit to adding shoulder shrugs on off days (cardio + abs days)?

I would add any accessory after the light and medium workout. I would not add anything on heavy day or you might not make it through medium day. Same thing goes for off days, dont add anything other than cardio, if even that. You want ab work, do it after your medium or light workouts.

[tjop]

Just finished Cycle 3.

C1 Beginning Weights:
SQ 130
BP 110
BOR 80
MP 60
SLDL 110
Curls 60
Standing CR 230

C4 New Weights:
SQ 170
BP 130
BOR 110
MP 65
SLDL 145
Curls 75
Standing CR 290

Progress.... !!

Weight: 162 > 173

+11lbs in 15 weeks

nice, any chance for some before - after pictures?

or could you tell if you gained most muscle or also fat?

[DonJPClarke]

simple flaw with this routine, which i've noticed after doing it for 2 weeks


Cant increase by 10% or decrease by 10-20% for low intensity sets.

E.g if your using 15kg, and increase by 10% = 16.5kg.

No gym stocks plates in that small increments... next step up would be 2x 5KG and 2x2.5KGs so 20kg. Yet to see a GYM with anything lower than 2.5 plates.

Unless you suggest you have an unbalanced bar with 2x 5Kg and 1x 2.5kg... which would just be stupid and still wouldn't be a 10% increase.


atm ive got to do 15kg heavy, 10kg medium 5kg light, as there just aint 250g Plates unfortunately...


When it comes to end of cycle its going to have to go to 20kg heavy/15kg medium, 10kg light, which is quite a big jump and could lead to failure...

[FitnessFan76]

simple flaw with this routine, which i've noticed after doing it for 2 weeks


Cant increase by 10% or decrease by 10-20% for low intensity sets.

E.g if your using 15kg, and increase by 10% = 16.5kg.

No gym stocks plates in that small increments... next step up would be 2x 5KG and 2x2.5KGs so 20kg. Yet to see a GYM with anything lower than 2.5 plates.

Unless you suggest you have an unbalanced bar with 2x 5Kg and 1x 2.5kg... which would just be stupid and still wouldn't be a 10% increase.


atm ive got to do 15kg heavy, 10kg medium 5kg light, as there just aint 250g Plates unfortunately...


When it comes to end of cycle its going to have to go to 20kg heavy/15kg medium, 10kg light.

I know what you mean - the lightest plates my gym has are 1.25kg plates. Personally, I just round it up or down, depending on how easily I passed the previous cycle's weights; 'easily' being a relative term of course - nothing's easy in this programme now. '

[nightanole]

I know what you mean - the lightest plates my gym has are 1.25kg plates. Personally, I just round it up or down, depending on how easily I passed the previous cycle's weights; 'easily' being a relative term of course - nothing's easy in this programme now. '

Chains and shackles are your friends... If you are really good you can find some shackles that are wide enough to slip on the oly bar. You would only need $20 tops for 20lbs of chain, and thats over kill unless your gym doesnt have 5lb plates.

[RyforLo]

simple flaw with this routine, which i've noticed after doing it for 2 weeks


Cant increase by 10% or decrease by 10-20% for low intensity sets.

E.g if your using 15kg, and increase by 10% = 16.5kg.

No gym stocks plates in that small increments... next step up would be 2x 5KG and 2x2.5KGs so 20kg. Yet to see a GYM with anything lower than 2.5 plates.

Unless you suggest you have an unbalanced bar with 2x 5Kg and 1x 2.5kg... which would just be stupid and still wouldn't be a 10% increase.


atm ive got to do 15kg heavy, 10kg medium 5kg light, as there just aint 250g Plates unfortunately...


When it comes to end of cycle its going to have to go to 20kg heavy/15kg medium, 10kg light, which is quite a big jump and could lead to failure...

I wouldn't really call it a flaw, as more of a generalization. Especially wouldn't call it a flaw if you've only done this exercise for 2 weeks, or are lifting very low weights.

If you are lifting that low of weights (15kg on a heavy day), then you can afford more than a 10% increase, such as rounding up to the next lowest permissible increase.

This is also conversely true when you are benching 225 lbs, and need a 22.5lb increase for the next cycle (assuming 10%). In this higher instances, it may make more sense to do a 5% increase.

You won't always be able to add 10%, most likely, all the way through cycle 20. But if you are lifting 15kg, then man up when you pass cycle one and round up the best you can.

[chris424]

Looking for some advice...
I'm almost at the end of Cycle 2 and my forearm's are progressively getting more painful when doing EZ Bar curls. Now, I've read through all the posts about tendinitis, resting for 2 weeks and changing it to straight bar/hammer curls/dumbells.

However, I was wondering if changing my bicep curl movement in All Pro to a narrow-grip chin up (weighted) would be a good idea? I understand it's one of the best ways to hit biceps. My only concern is that it will hit my lats/back to a degree, which might impact my deads/rows. What do you guys think?

[chevy72blu]

simple flaw with this routine, which i've noticed after doing it for 2 weeks


Cant increase by 10% or decrease by 10-20% for low intensity sets.

E.g if your using 15kg, and increase by 10% = 16.5kg.

No gym stocks plates in that small increments... next step up would be 2x 5KG and 2x2.5KGs so 20kg. Yet to see a GYM with anything lower than 2.5 plates.

Unless you suggest you have an unbalanced bar with 2x 5Kg and 1x 2.5kg... which would just be stupid and still wouldn't be a 10% increase.


atm ive got to do 15kg heavy, 10kg medium 5kg light, as there just aint 250g Plates unfortunately...


When it comes to end of cycle its going to have to go to 20kg heavy/15kg medium, 10kg light, which is quite a big jump and could lead to failure...

Not sure if it was All Pro or someone else, but wrist weights have been mentioned several times.

[Cranz]

Anyone saying this routine is easy is NOT using their true 10 rep max, even if it's C1W1.

I did my first day today, and trust me doing the second set of OHP, SLDL and bench for 8 reps with my 10 rep max wasn't nice. I DEFINITELY felt it. If this program actually gets me to put 12 for two sets by the end of week 5, it will be truly amazing. ( Especially lifts other than the squat since I'm really naturally dominant/strong at these ).