just me or does martin berkhan seem a lil broscience heavy?

[TheWickerman]

im sure you all know who he is, the intermittent fasting guy, creator of the leangains.com. i like his stuff and have been enjoying if along with iifym, but the more i read and reread his stuff, some of it almost seems like broscience. i get confused when u guys say it doesnt matter when u eat as long as u hit totals, the other stuff is minimal or negligible. yet he seems completely adamant that if u dont do a protocol for fasted am lifting of 5-10g bcaas pre lifting, then 10g 1 hr later, then 2 hrs later, you will severely hinder your progress. along with that, he suggests that on a cut one should do +10% of their maintenance calories on a workout day, and -35% of maintenance caloriew on off days so as to create sort of a excess calorie on workout days and extreme deficit on off days. as well, he mentioned the whole concept of carb cycling where off days u keep carbs low, on days carbs high.

all that stuff to me sounds legit, but again it seems to go against the plain and simple iifym method and leaves me confused. what do u guys think about all that stuff he says?

[germaine07]

I don't think he has any substantial data to support his claims. His main achievement was debunking the whole 6 meals a day and about skipping breakfast.

[TheWickerman]

I don't think he has any substantial data to support his claims. His main achievement was debunking the whole 6 meals a day and about skipping breakfast.

so im curious then, does this mean its ok to train fasted in the am (i enjoy having 10-30g bcaas pre during and post spread out 10/10/10) , but that i should probably have some food for recovery after instead of waiting 5 hrs to eat my first meal? or, does this mean i can have bcaas if i want, or not, and eat 5 hrs later with minimal decreases in my goals?

he also mentions that the science is heavily there and supports food intake around the pre and post workout window.

[germaine07]

so im curious then, does this mean its ok to train fasted in the am (i enjoy having 10-30g bcaas pre during and post spread out 10/10/10) , but that i should probably have some food for recovery after instead of waiting 5 hrs to eat my first meal? or, does this mean i can have bcaas if i want, or not, and eat 5 hrs later with minimal decreases in my goals?

he also mentions that the science is heavily there and supports food intake around the pre and post workout window.

Regarding nutrient timing around your workout, I suggest you read: http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5

[BGoodman88]

He has done a lot for people by debunking the myth that you should eat 6 times a day and as 'clean' as possible. Granted, he wasn't the first with the idea, but he did popularize it.

Of course he now holds on to intermittent fasting, it's his business. And while he may have some questionable claims, lots of people do very well on intermittent fasting.

[Mrpb]

I wouldn't really call it bro science but for sure he's interpreting the available research in a favorable way for IF.

For a more balanced take on IF I recommend reading Alan Aragons articles on IF:

Intermittent fasting has gained popularity recently. What are your thoughts? Panacea or fad?

I think the popularity of intermittent fasting (IF) is, for the most part, a good vindication of science. Academics have known for a while now that research has not supported the lore of frequent, small meals to stoke the metabolism better than the equivalent in larger, fewer meals. Furthermore, research has not supported the idea that small, frequent meals are necessary for preserving muscle mass. The evidence as a whole has not indicated any threat to muscle preservation during dieting when meal frequency is reduced – either daily or intermittently through the week. In fact, some studies have shown superior lean mass retention with IF during hypocaloric conditions. However, this could have been due to measurement error inherent with bioelectrical impedance analysis. It should also be noted that the IF research thus far has not involved structured exercise protocols.

At the same time that IF has vindicated science, it also created its own over-zealous following who preaches its universal necessity for optimizing body composition and health. Viewed more objectively, IF presents an effective option for those who prefer the convenience and luxury of larger meals – not to mention, less preparation & transportation of meals through the day. Any special or superior metabolic effects of IF compared to conventional meal patterns are speculative at this point. While IF has consistently shined in the department of lean mass retention while dieting, its comparison to conventional meal frequency on gains in muscular strength & hypertrophy is uncharted ground, at least in formal research. There are plenty of hypotheses flying around this area, but nothing demonstrated under controlled conditions. For the time being, meal frequency for optimal size & strength gain remains mysterious. This mystery is likely to begin unfolding with short-term data that one camp will excitedly embrace. If history means anything, the acute data will be followed by long-term data that shakes the confidence in former beliefs. Either way it goes, I’ve got my popcorn ready.

On a final note, I’ve seen the greatest client success come from letting individual preference dictate meal frequency. Some people do great on small frequent meals, others do great on the opposite (and all points in between). The theoretical advantages of any given dietary approach go straight out the window if it’s at odds with someone’s personal preference & adherence capability.

http://www.getnarked.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16205

More:
http://www.alanaragon.com/an-objecti...t-fasting.html
http://www.leangains.com/2010/03/ala...t-fasting.html

The most interesting thing I found was that Aragon doesn't recommend fasted workouts. Which makes a lot of sense to me.

[TheWickerman]

http://www.alanaragon.com/an-objecti...t-fasting.html

so based on this article, i think i can gather 2 big things...alan suggests besides sleep, one shouldnt typically go more than 5 hrs without eating SOMETHING with protein.

As well, fasted training isnt optimal.

if thats the case, what should one do? i wake up at 5:10 and chug my pre workout and am to the gym by 5:30. what should i change? i like taking my pre wo fasted. is 30g bcaas spread out pre during and post workout with a scoop of whey after my best bet? just curious because before i thought the ONLY thing that mattered was hitting ur macros, whether 1 meal or 10. this article seems to disagree with that.

unless this is just the difference between being a massive elite bodybuilder being anal abiut all this vs just a 7-8% bodyfat awesome looking aesthetic guy.

[Mrpb]

http://www.alanaragon.com/an-objecti...t-fasting.html

so based on this article, i think i can gather 2 big things...alan suggests besides sleep, one shouldnt typically go more than 5 hrs without eating SOMETHING with protein.

As well, fasted training isnt optimal.

if thats the case, what should one do? i wake up at 5:10 and chug my pre workout and am to the gym by 5:30. what should i change?

Add some protein and carbs in the pre workout. Maybe whey with some oatmeal or have a banana.

Then again if you feel great working out fasted I wouldn't worry about it. Alan says the same here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123915821

i thought the ONLY thing that mattered was hitting ur macros

That's not the case. What they probably meant to say was: Hitting your macros is far more important than meal timing.

[TheWickerman]

so would whey and oats be more optimal than 30g bcaas?

Add some protein and carbs in the pre workout. Maybe whey with some oatmeal.

Then again if you feel great working out fasted I wouldn't worry about it. Alan says the same here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123915821



That's not the case. Hitting your macros is far more important than meal timing.

[eriquee]

Hitting your daily macros is far more important to body composition, than nutrient timing. If you already hit your daily macros without a problem, the whole idea of supplying your body with a more constant stream of amino acids seems reasonable to better achieve muscle synthesis. But then again sometimes i get so confused about this stuff that all i care is hitting my daily macros.

If I were you, i would just take the whey before the workout, or the BCAA`s, because if takes a while for it to get digested and into the blood stream, and then eat whenever you can/want to eat.

[breakparallel]

he suggests that on a cut one should do +10% of their maintenance calories on a workout day, and -35% of maintenance calories on off days so as to create sort of a excess calorie on workout days and extreme deficit on off days.

Where did you find this info at? I'm a pretty big leangains fan but I don't think I've come across this anywhere in all the stuff I've read.

[Mrpb]

so would whey and oats be more optimal than 30g bcaas?

If you go with Alan Aragons recommendations for pre workout:

What are your generic guidelines of Pre/Post workout nutrition?

This varies with the sport and the goal, but for general fitness goals (which include muscle gain or retention), I default to my classic recommendation of about a quarter of a gram of protein per pound of lean mass, ingested within 1-2 hours of both sides of the training bout. This would maximize net muscle protein balance (synthesis minus breakdown) in the short-term. Of secondary importance would be carbohydrate timing, unless we’re talking specifically about endurance sports. Adding an equal amount of carbs to these protein dosings would further exploit the hypothetical benefits for maximizing training performance and recovery. Admittedly, the scientific basis for this is less solidly grounded than the protein recommendations. The rest of the desired results would be taken care of by the remainder of the diet. This brings me to the most important point, which is that nutrient timing is far less important than hitting the targeted macronutrient totals for the day. I would go as far as to say that attempting to precisely time nutrients is largely an exercise in jerking off hypotheses compared to hitting daily totals.

http://www.machin************/interv...t-alan-aragon/

(at machine muscle dot com)

[MCB9212]

To be honest it does not matter you do not need any pre workout wheter we talk about BCAAS or carbs. If you are able to work out with an empty stomach then go for it.

[vimalancity]

im sure you all know who he is, the intermittent fasting guy, creator of the leangains.com. i like his stuff and have been enjoying if along with iifym, but the more i read and reread his stuff, some of it almost seems like broscience. i get confused when u guys say it doesnt matter when u eat as long as u hit totals, the other stuff is minimal or negligible. yet he seems completely adamant that if u dont do a protocol for fasted am lifting of 5-10g bcaas pre lifting, then 10g 1 hr later, then 2 hrs later, you will severely hinder your progress. along with that, he suggests that on a cut one should do +10% of their maintenance calories on a workout day, and -35% of maintenance caloriew on off days so as to create sort of a excess calorie on workout days and extreme deficit on off days. as well, he mentioned the whole concept of carb cycling where off days u keep carbs low, on days carbs high.

all that stuff to me sounds legit, but again it seems to go against the plain and simple iifym method and leaves me confused. what do u guys think about all that stuff he says?

I think that the main reason for why he's a huge advocate of BCAAs according to your context is because he's saving the right timings for huge meals. (Thus Intermittent- fasting). That is why right after trainind before training he gets the readers to sip on BCAAs the whole time, saving their stomach from absrud hunger till the late afternoon before consuming a large meal the size of an elephant. Other than that I don't think he's adovcating BCAAs for to prevent muscle atrophy, hopefully at least, lol.

[germaine07]

so would whey and oats be more optimal than 30g bcaas?

Pre-workout nutrition is highly individual. If you train better fasted, I'd stick to it and just have some protein post-workout. Simple.

Also, I think with regards to that information, Alan is referring to maximising the anabolic response to make most gains. If cutting, I believe it is less of a concern.

[coconuttree2009]

[QUOTE=eriquee;1082175633]Hitting your daily macros is far more important to body composition, than nutrient timing. If you already hit your daily macros without a problem, the whole idea of supplying your body with a more constant stream of amino acids seems reasonable to better achieve muscle synthesis. But then again sometimes i get so confused about this stuff that all i care is hitting my daily macros.[QUOTE=eriquee;1082175633]

This is the thing - there is a difference between 'far more important' and 'optimal'.

Hitting macros is proven to be the most important thing, however, what would be optimal or at least a consideration whether it makes any difference or not is a different question.

[snorkelman]

This is the thing - there is a difference between 'far more important' and 'optimal'.

Hitting macros is proven to be the most important thing, however, what would be optimal or at least a consideration whether it makes any difference or not is a different question.

Yes, and there is a long thread in this section created by Josef Rakish (sp) that gets into this.

[Chicago54Bears]

So OP, tell me, when is your next show coming up?

Look man...you ultimately do yourself more harm than good worrying about this stuff rather than just focusing on lifting hard and hitting your macros for the day. Stressing over what precise amounts of BCAA grams to take at .25 hours before your workout or whatever, along with if the aforementioned BCAA's are 'more optimal' than oats and whey... it's just not worth it. Not if this isn't your life, what your income depends on. Just enjoy life and lifting, eat when you feel like it, and you'll see results. Even if it's not as optimal as worrying about very particular meal timings pre/post workout, you'll be more satisfied with being stress free while still progressing. Best of luck brah

[cumminslifter]

Pre-workout nutrition is highly individual. If you train better fasted, I'd stick to it and just have some protein post-workout. Simple.

Also, I think with regards to that information, Alan is referring to maximising the anabolic response to make most gains. If cutting, I believe it is less of a concern.

what about training 16 hours fasted than eating a whole food meal?
how big of a difference would that be compared to having something as a protein shake

[STC1188]

So OP, tell me, when is your next show coming up?

Look man...you ultimately do yourself more harm than good worrying about this stuff rather than just focusing on lifting hard and hitting your macros for the day. Stressing over what precise amounts of BCAA grams to take at .25 hours before your workout or whatever, along with if the aforementioned BCAA's are 'more optimal' than oats and whey... it's just not worth it. Not if this isn't your life, what your income depends on. Just enjoy life and lifting, eat when you feel like it, and you'll see results. Even if it's not as optimal as worrying about very particular meal timings pre/post workout, you'll be more satisfied with being stress free while still progressing. Best of luck brah

I think this and what others have been saying about optimal vs. best is important, OP. Yes, there are the very "best" ways of doing things, but if you recall the 80/20 rule (or 90/10), chances are they are going to mean very little to most in the long run. And yes, Martin has had success with IF, as has many of his clients, but I would not worry about wrapping your life around a protocol if it doesn't fit. Martin says on his website that IF works for many because it helps them fit good nutrition into their schedule. Thus, if there is no real need for it, don't worry.

As for the pre- and post-workout meals, I cannot stand anything in my stomach while working out. Thus, I do not consume anything pre-workout, and I am fine and am making gains. Again, there might be a slight difference in following a certain protocol, but if it is going to cause you to massively restructure/rethink what you are doing, it probably won't be worth it.

[germaine07]

what about training 16 hours fasted than eating a whole food meal?
how big of a difference would that be compared to having something as a protein shake

Well I didn't specifically say to have a protein shake post-workout, but I have no idea what the difference would be between them, and I'm not sure there is any relevant research available as of yet.

[cumminslifter]

Well I didn't specifically say to have a protein shake post-workout, but I have no idea what the difference would be between them, and I'm not sure there is any relevant research available as of yet.

trust me theres not lol
I have searched far and wide to try and find it

[shaneee]

Ehh
slight about of broscience
a lot of conjecture
and a lot of interesting research/theories to read(that are plausible ofc)