Contrast training for athletic gains

[ajymerced]

"Contrast training is easy to explain: Start with a set of heavy lifts, five to 10 reps, and then follow it immediately with an unloaded, explosive exercise using the same movement pattern and the same reps." - Nick Tumminello

Has anyone ever done contrast training? Did you make athletic gains?

[jonmcd46]

I did a little bit, but yeah you make gains especially if you don't normally do the exercise. For me I didn't do box jumps often enough so when I started them I noticed I ran better and had better overall balance. But honestly if your training for athletism I feel like every exercise you do should be explosive and fast.

[ajymerced]

I did a little bit, but yeah you make gains especially if you don't normally do the exercise. For me I didn't do box jumps often enough so when I started them I noticed I ran better and had better overall balance. But honestly if your training for athletism I feel like every exercise you do should be explosive and fast.

What was your routine like?

[ajymerced]

bump!!!!

[krakkerz]

"Contrast training is easy to explain: Start with a set of heavy lifts, five to 10 reps, and then follow it immediately with an unloaded, explosive exercise using the same movement pattern and the same reps." - Nick Tumminello

Has anyone ever done contrast training? Did you make athletic gains?

Yes and yes.

I think it's suited to already experienced trainees, though.

[jonmd123]

I think they are key for continual gain in advanced athletes. Probably not appropriate for anyone with less than 2-4 years of training.

I disagree with the statement that they should be done in sets of 5-10 reps. I believe you should do 1-5 reps of a heavy squat or other exercise, and immediately follow it (15-30 sec rest) with a plyometric that matches the movement. The purpose of the heavy strength exercise is to excite the nervous system, I feel doing anything over a couple reps will cause too much fatigue.

[ajymerced]

Yes and yes.

I think it's suited to already experienced trainees, though.

What was your routine for it?

I think they are key for continual gain in advanced athletes. Probably not appropriate for anyone with less than 2-4 years of training.

I disagree with the statement that they should be done in sets of 5-10 reps. I believe you should do 1-5 reps of a heavy squat or other exercise, and immediately follow it (15-30 sec rest) with a plyometric that matches the movement. The purpose of the heavy strength exercise is to excite the nervous system, I feel doing anything over a couple reps will cause too much fatigue.

Thats true. What % of your max should you lift in the 1-5 range if you're gonna do this?

[jonmd123]

What was your routine for it?



Thats true. What % of your max should you lift in the 1-5 range if you're gonna do this?

I would do 5-10% less than your 'max' would be for the given rep range. This will keep the rep speed faster, and not overly fatigue the body.

[krakkerz]

What was your routine for it?

I've not had a single routine for this. Bear in mind I coach others as well and I'm about 600 years old. How I would do it now is to use it as part of the normal lower body routine 1-2 times per week. As jonmd says, paired with a heavier exercise. Just one pairing per workout. Pair vertical jumping exercises with squatting exercises and horizontal jumping exercises with deadlifts. Power cleans paired with deadlifts offer a similar effect. 3-6 sets. Then, some other lower body work. Maybe something like this.....

Workout A:
Squat -4 x 3 paired with
Box Jump -4 x 3
Romanian Deadlift - 2 x 6-10
Glute Ham Raise - 2 x 6-10

Workout B:
Deadlift - 6 x 1
Broad Jump - 6 x 3 (Quick on the ground)
Front Squat - 2 x 5-8
Glute Ham Raise - 2 x 6-10

That's one I've used recently with a player. It's relatively low volume because he was new to this type of training. Anecdotally, it worked well.

Incidentally, I've tried it with upper body and I can't seem to get it to work well. Nor do I think there is as much point.

[ajymerced]

I've not had a single routine for this. Bear in mind I coach others as well and I'm about 600 years old. How I would do it now is to use it as part of the normal lower body routine 1-2 times per week. As jonmd says, paired with a heavier exercise. Just one pairing per workout. Pair vertical jumping exercises with squatting exercises and horizontal jumping exercises with deadlifts. Power cleans paired with deadlifts offer a similar effect. 3-6 sets. Then, some other lower body work. Maybe something like this.....

Workout A:
Squat -4 x 3 paired with
Box Jump -4 x 3
Romanian Deadlift - 2 x 6-10
Glute Ham Raise - 2 x 6-10

Workout B:
Deadlift - 6 x 1
Broad Jump - 6 x 3 (Quick on the ground)
Front Squat - 2 x 5-8
Glute Ham Raise - 2 x 6-10

That's one I've used recently with a player. It's relatively low volume because he was new to this type of training. Anecdotally, it worked well.

Incidentally, I've tried it with upper body and I can't seem to get it to work well. Nor do I think there is as much point.

I like it, very simple. May have to try this later in the summer. And why do you think there is no point in contrast training the upper body?

[Mevl23]

Most running sports like rugby require explosiveness through the hips and legs to break the line and bulk up top to take and absorb contact, that's my view anyway and why I don't really use contrast gaining for upper body..

[ajymerced]

sounds like this **** works. I'm currently doing 5/3/1 with plyos as assistance work but may have to try this after

[krakkerz]

I like it, very simple. May have to try this later in the summer. And why do you think there is no point in contrast training the upper body?

Firstly, what Mevl said. Secondly, it's more difficult to load. The difference between bodyweight and the loads you use is much closer. Med balls are an answer, but I find it easier to program them separately. Bench Press/Explosive pushups can work, though.

[OneLastChance]

I don't see the point. What does doing the same motion without the weight do? Okay, of course your going to be lifting it extremely easy, due to having just removed weight off, but I don't see how that's making you any more explosive. Seems like an overcomplicated way to say "do a high amount of volume." People have been doing this for years and now it's called "contrast training"?..

[jonmd123]

I don't see the point. What does doing the same motion without the weight do? Okay, of course your going to be lifting it extremely easy, due to having just removed weight off, but I don't see how that's making you any more explosive. Seems like an overcomplicated way to say "do a high amount of volume." People have been doing this for years and now it's called "contrast training"?..

CNS potentiation...

Volume should remain low to keep rep speed high.

And, people have been contrast training for years too.

[OneLastChance]

CNS potentiation...

Volume should remain low to keep rep speed high.

And, people have been contrast training for years too.

I was under the impression that CNS potentiation was to increase performance of the next exercise after the first. I.e

1. Bench Press 6 x 175

2. Here a person who could normally only squat a max of 350, may be able to go 360+ due to the priming of the CNS with the bench press.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/cns.htm

I don't understand how doing a loaded BP then an UNLOADED BP is CNS potentiation. What is there to gain by benching the bar 30x after doing a loaded BP, except to do high volume training like I stated above

I'm not saying anything is wrong with it. It is a viable way to train, but as far as making "more athletic gains" My S&C coaches, what I've taught other people and the plethora of books I've read never have used this as a some superior method to achieving big numbers. If anything Westside BB and Louie Simmons is a bit underdiscussed.

[krakkerz]

Specifically, it is called Post Activation Potentiation. There are a few different types of CNS potentiation. The example you give is related to a general effect of nervous system potentiation. It would be even stronger is the movement used is complex. It's also the reason I think Power Cleans or Snatches are great at the start of a warmup.

PAP is specific to the movement you are performing. You aren't doing an unloaded version of the exercise. You are performing an explosive variant - so it's still high threshold. It's not like a jump squat at 30% load is just an unloaded version of a 1RM squat, afterall. You're combining Strength-Speed and Speed-Strength. I'd go as far as to say it is best for so called "Strength Dominant" athletes to develop higher explosive power. There is an AIS study I read of in PPOnline which showed this pretty well.

The reason you don't read about it might be because it's relatively new, but I've seen it well discussed, nonetheless. It's been around as a relatively common methodology since the 80s (though the term PAP is much newer), and well studied since the 90s. Look up the work of Gilles Cometti for even more complex arrangements dating back to then. Verkoshansky published on it as well - apparently as early as 1970s, but I've not seen anything from then with my own eyes. I believe he referred to it as Transfer Training.

Here's a good intro to PAP and how it works. I'm not sure on the exercises used, though. I also tend to use a shorter rest period. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3164001/#B8

Why I use this.....

1. It gives an alternative to break up the training year.
2. It keeps advanced guys in one spot. Not in the gym, at the field and down at the basketball court (where we tend to do a lot of plyos). Very helpful for some pre-season workouts.
3. Excellent for group training.
4. There is unequivocal improvement in the explosive exercise portion of the exercise.

I also can't see where anyone made claims of "more athletic gains". There was a question whether anyone "made athletic gains" to which people answered that they did. I don't believe there has been any claim of super technique on this thread.

[OneLastChance]

Specifically, it is called Post Activation Potentiation. There are a few different types of CNS potentiation. The example you give is related to a general effect of nervous system potentiation. It would be even stronger is the movement used is complex. It's also the reason I think Power Cleans or Snatches are great at the start of a warmup.

PAP is specific to the movement you are performing. You aren't doing an unloaded version of the exercise. You are performing an explosive variant - so it's still high threshold. It's not like a jump squat at 30% load is just an unloaded version of a 1RM squat, afterall. You're combining Strength-Speed and Speed-Strength. I'd go as far as to say it is best for so called "Strength Dominant" athletes to develop higher explosive power. There is an AIS study I read of in PPOnline which showed this pretty well.

The reason you don't read about it might be because it's relatively new, but I've seen it well discussed, nonetheless. It's been around as a relatively common methodology since the 80s (though the term PAP is much newer), and well studied since the 90s. Look up the work of Gilles Cometti for even more complex arrangements dating back to then. Verkoshansky published on it as well - apparently as early as 1970s, but I've not seen anything from then with my own eyes. I believe he referred to it as Transfer Training.

Here's a good intro to PAP and how it works. I'm not sure on the exercises used, though. I also tend to use a shorter rest period. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3164001/#B8

Why I use this.....

1. It gives an alternative to break up the training year.
2. It keeps advanced guys in one spot. Not in the gym, at the field and down at the basketball court (where we tend to do a lot of plyos). Very helpful for some pre-season workouts.
3. Excellent for group training.
4. There is unequivocal improvement in the explosive exercise portion of the exercise.

I also can't see where anyone made claims of "more athletic gains". There was a question whether anyone "made athletic gains" to which people answered that they did. I don't believe there has been any claim of super technique on this thread.

Very detailed response, thank you. That is a lot to digest, but I read it twice and understand it now. So there are multiple forms of CNS training and the one you were referring to is the one I'm more accustomed to hearing. I will read that link as well.

[ajymerced]

Thanks for all your answers krakkerz

[ajymerced]

Krakkerz, can you or someone help me with planning a complex routine?

Maybe something like yours but with upper body workouts incorporate

[krakkerz]

Absolutely. Pop in some details about how you're training now and what you want to do going forward.

[ajymerced]

Absolutely. Pop in some details about how you're training now and what you want to do going forward.

Right now I do 5/3/1 with plyometrics as assistance but I feel like contrast training will be more effective in reaching my goal of increasing my vertical leap. But I also want to maintain my strength in my upper/lower body. I liked the routine you posted earlier on this post because it was so simple. But I'd like upper body contrast workouts incorporated. Something with a 2 day split because I can only go to the gym twice a week.

Here a routine I came up with:
Weights are lifted heavy at 85-95% of 1RM.

Workout A:
low bar Squat -4 x 3 paired with Box Jump -4 x 3
Front squat - 3x5 paired with squat jumps 3x5
Deadlift - 2 x 5 with Broad Jump - 2 x5 (Quick on the ground)

Workout B:
Bench press - 3x5 paired with explosive push ups - 3x5
Military press 3x5 paired with Medicine ball shoulder press 3x5
Barbell row 3x5 pair with pull ups 3x5

I posted this routine earlier for some opinions: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...91&pagenumber=


Do you think that routine is okay or can you come up with something with reaching my goals?

[krakkerz]

Right now I do 5/3/1 with plyometrics as assistance but I feel like contrast training will be more effective in reaching my goal of increasing my vertical leap. But I also want to maintain my strength in my upper/lower body. I liked the routine you posted earlier on this post because it was so simple. But I'd like upper body contrast workouts incorporated. Something with a 2 day split because I can only go to the gym twice a week.

Here a routine I came up with:
Weights are lifted heavy at 85-95% of 1RM.

Workout A:
low bar Squat -4 x 3 paired with Box Jump -4 x 3
Front squat - 3x5 paired with squat jumps 3x5
Deadlift - 2 x 5 with Broad Jump - 2 x5 (Quick on the ground)

Workout B:
Bench press - 3x5 paired with explosive push ups - 3x5
Military press 3x5 paired with Medicine ball shoulder press 3x5
Barbell row 3x5 pair with pull ups 3x5

I posted this routine earlier for some opinions: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...91&pagenumber=


Do you think that routine is okay or can you come up with something with reaching my goals?

Your ideas are good, but I'd change a few things.

- In workout A, I'd do either the box jumps or squat jumps. I wouldn't use them both in the same workout. I think you'd be better putting them in separate blocks with squat jumps for the next 3-4 weeks and then box jumps.
- Nowadays, I never put heavy deadlifts and squats in the same workout. I'd replace the deadlifts with Romanian Deadlifts or single leg DLs.
- I'm a fan of having two different lower body routines. One quad and one hip dominant (for lack of better terms, I'll steal the T-Mag ones). So I'd split the exercises up and increase the volume a bit. It's not a coincidence that would make it look the same as the workout I posted above perhaps with more volume for yourself.

For upper body.....
- First, I want you to consider how much loaded, overhead, high speed/power work you do. The answer is likely very little. For shoulders, concentrate on strength and stability. I don't think contrast training is warranted.
- Bench paired with explosive pushups is fine. I prefer to see upper body done as two workouts in the Westside vein, though. With a dynamic day and a ME day for the reasons above.
- I don't think there is a lot of good exercises for the back to pair. I don't think so called explosive pullups are explosive at all, either. Again, ask yourself if you need it.

[ajymerced]

Your ideas are good, but I'd change a few things.

- In workout A, I'd do either the box jumps or squat jumps. I wouldn't use them both in the same workout. I think you'd be better putting them in separate blocks with squat jumps for the next 3-4 weeks and then box jumps.
- Nowadays, I never put heavy deadlifts and squats in the same workout. I'd replace the deadlifts with Romanian Deadlifts or single leg DLs.
- I'm a fan of having two different lower body routines. One quad and one hip dominant (for lack of better terms, I'll steal the T-Mag ones). So I'd split the exercises up and increase the volume a bit. It's not a coincidence that would make it look the same as the workout I posted above perhaps with more volume for yourself.

For upper body.....
- First, I want you to consider how much loaded, overhead, high speed/power work you do. The answer is likely very little. For shoulders, concentrate on strength and stability. I don't think contrast training is warranted.
- Bench paired with explosive pushups is fine. I prefer to see upper body done as two workouts in the Westside vein, though. With a dynamic day and a ME day for the reasons above.
- I don't think there is a lot of good exercises for the back to pair. I don't think so called explosive pullups are explosive at all, either. Again, ask yourself if you need it.

Thank you. I repped you. I'll hit you up if I need more tips

[krakkerz]

So, ideal routine IMO?

Day 1:
Squat / Box jump - 3-5 x 3-5
Deadlift Variation - 2-4 x 6-8
Split squats - 2-4 x 6-8 *
As you get better and tolerate the volume, you can reduce the rep range and pair these with split squat jumps.

Day 2:
Explosive Pushups - 6-10 x 2-3 (or bench or med ball - pretty much straight out of WSB with some wriggle room)
Barbell Row - 4-6 x 6-8
Overhead Press - 4-6 x 6-10
Chins optional

Day 3:
Deadlift / Broadjump - 3-5 x 3-5
Squat Variation - 2-4 x 6-8
Single leg deadlift - 2-4 x 6-8 *
* Can be paired with single leg box jump as you tolerate the volume.

Day 4:
Bench - 4-6 x 4-6
DB Row - 4-6 x 8-15 (Save your lower back a little)
3 way laterals - 2 x 20 (front/side/rear laterals. 20 each in a row - again, straight from Westside)

That should get you an idea. Note, I've left core work out. You could conceivably do what you planned, but I think this is likely better.