So if protein in high amounts can be converted to sugar, Why do a "carb load

[Twconklin]

It has occured to me, that as i said above, Protein in really high amounts will be converted from Amino acids to Acetyl-Coa or pyruvic acid.
as Acetly-Coa it goes to the CAC ( to become ATP energy), and or in excess can stored via lipogenisis as fat.

But as as pyruvic acid Via gluconeogenisis to glu-6-p to glycogenolysis- thus glycogen.

So It seems to me that rather then grabbing a bunch of Carbs (complex or not) and exiting metabolic ketosis for a few days.

Having a really high protein day, could partialy or fully refill glycogen stores. and keep you in ketosis? right? Its well known protein is not normally or eaisly converted to sugar, but it can be done!

Carb ups once made sense to me and i did it for a while when thinking a carb up is usefull for " reseting cortisol, and leptin levels and all those hormones, and Refilling glycogen stores... and all that jazz.

But in the end "reseting hormon levels" is hyped more then it should be, the reset of hormones if exists at all, during a low cal diet is simply fixed by returning to a high calorie diet for some time.

So, does this make sense?

[Obduro]

You're absolutely right, and the metabolic process is called gluconeogenesis. However, it's really not efficient for you body to convert all that much dietary protein into sugars. Gluconeogenesis occurs but at a very low capacity, meaning it's not enough to really matter. The reason for the once-a-week carb load is because on keto you're carbs levels (glycogen) will be low constantly because you should be lifting + doing low intensity cardio which will burn through any (the little amount) carbs that you ate or that came from gluconeogenesis.

Glad your doing research man!

[Atavis]

Do you know how much protein that would take?




Not really curious, I want you to think about it cuz it's not anything that's EVER likely to work. Neither is lipogenesis from excessive protein intake, by the way.

[Obduro]

No idea, but it depends a lot on the current energy demands for the body. I.E. gluconeogenesis happens the fastest when you are deep into ketosis and you try do high intensity cardio. What i mean is that your own muscles are digested by your liver to produce glucose to feed the high energy demand, past the rate which ketones can support, of glycogen exhausted muscles. This is why 180+ BPM cardio on keto will lead extreme muscle loss

[Twconklin]

Well FDA standards for the Average person suggests ~50g protein. Body builders suggest 1.0-1.5g/ per Kg.

I see logic in any thing over the daily requirement, average ate more then 50g, and the BB consumed more then 150g a day. Its all converted to fats and sugars.

But for us in ketosis, I think the conversion is more likely to go to the creation of sugars, and the storage as glycogen.

I say that only because Glycogen is a faster source of energy, then lypolysis and i think the body would go for faster energy source.


Why don't they put this kind of stuff in text books?

Do you know how much protein that would take?

Not really curious, I want you to think about it cuz it's not anything that's EVER likely to work. Neither is lipogenesis from excessive protein intake, by the way.

[Twconklin]

No idea, but it depends a lot on the current energy demands for the body. I.E. gluconeogenesis happens the fastest when you are deep into ketosis and you try do high intensity cardio. What i mean is that your own muscles are digested by your liver to produce glucose to feed the high energy demand, past the rate which ketones can support, of glycogen exhausted muscles. This is why 180+ BPM cardio on keto will lead extreme muscle loss

Mmm, I see what your getting at but, from what i have studied and my personal experience I cant agree with all of what you said.
If we speak about a non adapted keto person doing "HIT", I could understand the greater need for the conversion of muscles to sugars, because the Brain has not adapted to fatty acids and ketone's.

But the rest of us with long term adaptation to ketosis, Sugars are 90% needed by Erythrocytes, and 10% for the brain. Ketone levels and Fatty acid levels are allways high in blood, and "Sometimes so high the pass into the urine" ketourea. you guy know that...

What i am getting at, is though HIT is great intensity and more strain on the muscles, that doesent mean a greater need for sugar.

[Twconklin]

You're absolutely right, and the metabolic process is called gluconeogenesis. However, it's really not efficient for you body to convert all that much dietary protein into sugars. Gluconeogenesis occurs but at a very low capacity, meaning it's not enough to really matter. The reason for the once-a-week carb load is because on keto you're carbs levels (glycogen) will be low constantly because you should be lifting + doing low intensity cardio which will burn through any (the little amount) carbs that you ate or that came from gluconeogenesis.

Glad your doing research man!

Its a pain that text books don't really go into this. As i posted a Bit ago, i see logic in any protein over the daily req. will become fats or sugars. Leaning to make glycogen rather then fat.

I eat about 1.5kg of broccoli/ and spinach a day. Beyond those few net carbs i haven't had a carb up in a long time. Yet I am keto adapted enough that When i do HIT, Swimming, sprinting or lifting, I am quite strong with out such stores of glycogen.

[Obduro]

Mmm, I see what your getting at but, from what i have studied and my personal experience I cant agree with all of what you said.
If we speak about a non adapted keto person doing "HIT", I could understand the greater need for the conversion of muscles to sugars, because the Brain has not adapted to fatty acids and ketone's.

But the rest of us with long term adaptation to ketosis, Sugars are 90% needed by Erythrocytes, and 10% for the brain. Ketone levels and Fatty acid levels are allways high in blood, and "Sometimes so high the pass into the urine" ketourea. you guy know that...

What i am getting at, is though HIT is great intensity and more strain on the muscles, that doesent mean a greater need for sugar.

You may be right. But from what I have read, muscle catabolism is very common with high intensity cardio and ketosis. I read somewhere that ketones from lipolysis are a poor energy source, and can only supply so much energy. http://eatketo.com/preparing-for-ketosis/ says high intensity cardio on keto facilitates muscle loss. As far as I know protein breakdown like that occurs because of gluconeogenesis, which can deliver enough glucose to glycogen deprived muscles at work, likely much faster than ketones can.

Granted, glucogenesis is common metabolic pathway for someone who has little to no dietary glucose, because as you said many cells are run only on glucose. However, lipolysis in keto generally is sufficient to supply enough ATP to cells that need it, provided the energy deliverance rate of ketones is not exceeded.

[Atavis]

The RDA is crap and not even enough for a couch potato. Don't use it if you want to succeed at anything. Also, BB'ers 1.0-1.5g/ per lb sometimes much more. The upper limit for protein for optimal performance and recovery is much higher than the minimum required for a bed ridden invalid to not die, i.e.the RDA.

I eat more than 150gr a day and have never has an issue with not being able to establish and maintain ketosis at will.

[mfitty9000]

I dont put much stock in the FDA, when you see what food practices they allow behind the scenes it really makes me think they get funding from "big food" industry (ie: agriculture) and the most cost effective profitable items are probably mass production of carbs.

[Twconklin]

The RDA is crap and not even enough for a couch potato. Don't use it if you want to succeed at anything. Also, BB'ers 1.0-1.5g/ per lb sometimes much more. The upper limit for protein for optimal performance and recovery is much higher than the minimum required for a bed ridden invalid to not die, i.e.the RDA.

I eat more than 150gr a day and have never has an issue with not being able to establish and maintain ketosis at will.

I also think the RDA is ****, 50g-70g of protein is crazy small. I typically eat a whole rotissary chicken every day, no skin. Which is about 100-130g protein, and is never a problem with being in ketosis.

But i have my "man up protein Friday" were ill eat over 300g of protein easily in a day. 2 chickens, pork knee, beef, powder shakes.
and I Imagen that its playing some roll in sugar, or making me a bigger fatass

[Twconklin]

I dont put much stock in the FDA, when you see what food practices they allow behind the scenes it really makes me think they get funding from "big food" industry (ie: agriculture) and the most cost effective profitable items are probably mass production of carbs.

... Mafia... All i need to say.