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  1. #1
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    max calorie deficit.

    whats the max calorie deficit i can do (cutting) without losing muscle mass if i do 1-1.5 gms of protein per pound of body weight ?
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    Originally Posted by hema94x View Post
    whats the max calorie deficit i can do (cutting) without losing muscle mass if i do 1-1.5 gms of protein per pound of body weight ?
    Whatever calorie amount you are at after you get your protein... Its called a Protein Sparing Modified Fast...Look it up
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    The fatter you are the bigger deficit you can run.....As you get leaner it is recommended to reduce the deficit. I personally cut at 1000 deficit and once 12% is reached I reduce down to a 500 deficit. Not sure if this is accepted amongst the bodybuilding community, it's just what I do.
    Stay thirsty my friends!
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    Originally Posted by jtrain2323 View Post
    Whatever calorie amount you are at after you get your protein... Its called a Protein Sparing Modified Fast...Look it up
    For the most part this.
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    Originally Posted by 22pete22 View Post
    The fatter you are the bigger deficit you can run.....As you get leaner it is recommended to reduce the deficit. I personally cut at 1000 deficit and once 12% is reached I reduce down to a 500 deficit. Not sure if this is accepted amongst the bodybuilding community, it's just what I do.
    u sure u maintained muscle mass ?
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    Originally Posted by jtrain2323 View Post
    Whatever calorie amount you are at after you get your protein... Its called a Protein Sparing Modified Fast...Look it up
    so if i get my protein i wont lose muscle mass no matter what my calorie deficit is ?!
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    Originally Posted by hema94x View Post
    u sure u maintained muscle mass ?
    90% sure.....Lifts have never gone backwards anyway
    Stay thirsty my friends!
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    Originally Posted by hema94x View Post
    so if i get my protein i wont lose muscle mass no matter what my calorie deficit is ?!
    no. if you require lets say 150 grams of protein per day and thats all you eat, your body will start to burn muscle for energy as you would be severly defecit.
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    Originally Posted by hema94x View Post
    so if i get my protein i wont lose muscle mass no matter what my calorie deficit is ?!
    No, you need to read the RFL book. Adequate protein is the key but the greater the caloric deficit, the greater the protein requirement. To be very honest, a guy your size will not be able to lose much more than 3-4lbs of fat/week going to very great lengths and suffering a fair amount of hunger using a PSMF. You can lose 1-2lbs/week and only need a small amount of discipline to maintain it.
    My Reverse Diet Log
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=153750981&p=1077733831#post1077733831
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  10. #10
    Registered User Solrac40's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 22pete22 View Post
    The fatter you are the bigger deficit you can run.....As you get leaner it is recommended to reduce the deficit. I personally cut at 1000 deficit and once 12% is reached I reduce down to a 500 deficit. Not sure if this is accepted amongst the bodybuilding community, it's just what I do.
    I'm also at a 1000cal deficit and have maintained muscle (and have gotten stronger since I started my cut). It might be due to lifting heavy (in the 6-8 rep range) throughout the entire cut, but I'm pretty happy with the results so far. Not saying you should follow the same, though. I went that low because I was at about an 800cal deficit and hit a plateau. I gradually lowered my calorie intake and I'm currently up at a 1000cal deficit and I continue to lose fat. I also have a re-feed day once a week.

    Lower your calories gradually and listen to your body. Best of luck!

    About re-feeds (if you're not familiar with what it is):

    HERE IS A BIT OF AN EXPLINATION OF A RE-FEED DAY

    When dieting and on a low calorie diet (in a calorie deficit), your leptin hormone levels will drop in attempt by the body to spare body fat. (safety mechanism for the human body). With low leptin levels it becomes much harder to burn body fat. So including a re-feed day into your cutting diet will be really beneficial and allow you to continue to burn body fat at an optimal rate. A re-feed is basically taking 1 step back, but 2 steps forward.

    For those of you who do not know what a re-feed day is here is a short article I wrote briefly explaining it and how often you should include a re-feed into your cutting diet.

    WHAT IS A RE-FEED DAY?

    A Re-Feed day is a day where you increase your carbohydrate intake by 100% or more, increasing your calories up to maintenance or slightly above so that you are in a calorie surplus for this day. This will help restore your Leptin hormone levels. (LEPTIN IS THE KING OF ALL FAT BURNING HORMONES!)

    HOW OFTEN DO I NEED TO HAVE A RE-FEED DAY?

    Everyone is different and will require different amounts of re-feeding. Here are my guidelines for you to follow and when to include a re-feed into your meal plan schedule.

    - If you are above 20% body fat - Re-feed once every month.

    - If you are between 15% and 20% body fat - Re-feed once every 2 weeks.

    - If you are between 8% and %15 body fat - Re-feed once every week.

    - If you are below 8% body fat - Re-feed twice per week.

    The leaner you are the lower your leptin levels will be so the more frequent you should include re-feeds into your diet.

    - Article written by Josef Rakich
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    Originally Posted by Solrac40 View Post
    I'm also at a 1000cal deficit and have maintained muscle, imo. It might be due to lifting heavy (in the 6-8 rep range) throughout the entire cut, but I'm pretty happy with the results so far. Not saying you should follow the same, though. I went that low because I was at about an 800cal deficit and hit a plateau. I gradually lowered my calorie intake and I'm currently up at a 1000cal deficit and I continue to lose fat. I also have a re-feed day once a week.

    Lower your calories gradually and listen to your body. Best of luck!

    About re-feeds (if you're not familiar with what it is):

    HERE IS A BIT OF AN EXPLINATION OF A RE-FEED DAY

    When dieting and on a low calorie diet (in a calorie deficit), your leptin hormone levels will drop in attempt by the body to spare body fat. (safety mechanism for the human body). With low leptin levels it becomes much harder to burn body fat. So including a re-feed day into your cutting diet will be really beneficial and allow you to continue to burn body fat at an optimal rate. A re-feed is basically taking 1 step back, but 2 steps forward.

    For those of you who do not know what a re-feed day is here is a short article I wrote briefly explaining it and how often you should include a re-feed into your cutting diet.

    WHAT IS A RE-FEED DAY?

    A Re-Feed day is a day where you increase your carbohydrate intake by 100% or more, increasing your calories up to maintenance or slightly above so that you are in a calorie surplus for this day. This will help restore your Leptin hormone levels. (LEPTIN IS THE KING OF ALL FAT BURNING HORMONES!)

    HOW OFTEN DO I NEED TO HAVE A RE-FEED DAY?

    Everyone is different and will require different amounts of re-feeding. Here are my guidelines for you to follow and when to include a re-feed into your meal plan schedule.

    - If you are above 20% body fat - Re-feed once every month.

    - If you are between 15% and 20% body fat - Re-feed once every 2 weeks.

    - If you are between 8% and %15 body fat - Re-feed once every week.

    - If you are below 8% body fat - Re-feed twice per week.

    The leaner you are the lower your leptin levels will be so the more frequent you should include re-feeds into your diet.

    - Article written by Josef Rakich
    Thanks for posting this, repped
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    Originally Posted by Solrac40 View Post
    I'm also at a 1000cal deficit and have maintained muscle (and have gotten stronger since I started my cut). It might be due to lifting heavy (in the 6-8 rep range) throughout the entire cut, but I'm pretty happy with the results so far. Not saying you should follow the same, though. I went that low because I was at about an 800cal deficit and hit a plateau. I gradually lowered my calorie intake and I'm currently up at a 1000cal deficit and I continue to lose fat. I also have a re-feed day once a week.

    Lower your calories gradually and listen to your body. Best of luck!

    About re-feeds (if you're not familiar with what it is):

    HERE IS A BIT OF AN EXPLINATION OF A RE-FEED DAY

    When dieting and on a low calorie diet (in a calorie deficit), your leptin hormone levels will drop in attempt by the body to spare body fat. (safety mechanism for the human body). With low leptin levels it becomes much harder to burn body fat. So including a re-feed day into your cutting diet will be really beneficial and allow you to continue to burn body fat at an optimal rate. A re-feed is basically taking 1 step back, but 2 steps forward.

    For those of you who do not know what a re-feed day is here is a short article I wrote briefly explaining it and how often you should include a re-feed into your cutting diet.

    WHAT IS A RE-FEED DAY?

    A Re-Feed day is a day where you increase your carbohydrate intake by 100% or more, increasing your calories up to maintenance or slightly above so that you are in a calorie surplus for this day. This will help restore your Leptin hormone levels. (LEPTIN IS THE KING OF ALL FAT BURNING HORMONES!)

    HOW OFTEN DO I NEED TO HAVE A RE-FEED DAY?

    Everyone is different and will require different amounts of re-feeding. Here are my guidelines for you to follow and when to include a re-feed into your meal plan schedule.

    - If you are above 20% body fat - Re-feed once every month.

    - If you are between 15% and 20% body fat - Re-feed once every 2 weeks.

    - If you are between 8% and %15 body fat - Re-feed once every week.

    - If you are below 8% body fat - Re-feed twice per week.

    The leaner you are the lower your leptin levels will be so the more frequent you should include re-feeds into your diet.

    - Article written by Josef Rakich
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    Originally Posted by Solrac40 View Post
    I'm also at a 1000cal deficit and have maintained muscle (and have gotten stronger since I started my cut). It might be due to lifting heavy (in the 6-8 rep range) throughout the entire cut, but I'm pretty happy with the results so far. Not saying you should follow the same, though. I went that low because I was at about an 800cal deficit and hit a plateau. I gradually lowered my calorie intake and I'm currently up at a 1000cal deficit and I continue to lose fat. I also have a re-feed day once a week.

    Lower your calories gradually and listen to your body. Best of luck!

    About re-feeds (if you're not familiar with what it is):

    HERE IS A BIT OF AN EXPLINATION OF A RE-FEED DAY

    When dieting and on a low calorie diet (in a calorie deficit), your leptin hormone levels will drop in attempt by the body to spare body fat. (safety mechanism for the human body). With low leptin levels it becomes much harder to burn body fat. So including a re-feed day into your cutting diet will be really beneficial and allow you to continue to burn body fat at an optimal rate. A re-feed is basically taking 1 step back, but 2 steps forward.

    For those of you who do not know what a re-feed day is here is a short article I wrote briefly explaining it and how often you should include a re-feed into your cutting diet.

    WHAT IS A RE-FEED DAY?

    A Re-Feed day is a day where you increase your carbohydrate intake by 100% or more, increasing your calories up to maintenance or slightly above so that you are in a calorie surplus for this day. This will help restore your Leptin hormone levels. (LEPTIN IS THE KING OF ALL FAT BURNING HORMONES!)

    HOW OFTEN DO I NEED TO HAVE A RE-FEED DAY?

    Everyone is different and will require different amounts of re-feeding. Here are my guidelines for you to follow and when to include a re-feed into your meal plan schedule.

    - If you are above 20% body fat - Re-feed once every month.

    - If you are between 15% and 20% body fat - Re-feed once every 2 weeks.

    - If you are between 8% and %15 body fat - Re-feed once every week.

    - If you are below 8% body fat - Re-feed twice per week.

    The leaner you are the lower your leptin levels will be so the more frequent you should include re-feeds into your diet.

    - Article written by Josef Rakich
    Ive been cutting for a year on a 1000 calorie deficit. What do you think of a diet break where I eat at maintenance for 2 weeks.
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    Originally Posted by leaftors View Post
    Ive been cutting for a year on a 1000 calorie deficit. What do you think of a diet break where I eat at maintenance for 2 weeks.
    There is nothing wrong with taking a break.....Just make sure that break doesn't turn into a major binge.
    Stay thirsty my friends!
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    Originally Posted by leaftors View Post
    Ive been cutting for a year on a 1000 calorie deficit. What do you think of a diet break where I eat at maintenance for 2 weeks.
    I'd say why the hell not?

    Originally Posted by Electricheadd View Post
    No, you need to read the RFL book. Adequate protein is the key but the greater the caloric deficit, the greater the protein requirement. To be very honest, a guy your size will not be able to lose much more than 3-4lbs of fat/week going to very great lengths and suffering a fair amount of hunger using a PSMF. You can lose 1-2lbs/week and only need a small amount of discipline to maintain it.
    Exactly. Additionally, according to the book, the leaner you are the more protein you require (per pound of lbm). IDK what %BF you are OP, but I imagine you are getting close to 15% or so at 6' 170 lbs, putting you in or soon to be in RFL "Category 1". Lyle suggests 2 g protein per pound of LBM in that range of BF, so you are looking at close to 300 grams of protein a day. So 1200 calories in protein and say 100-200 kcals tagalong fats/carbs. So say 1300-1400 calories of mostly lean proteins. Not much fun.

    Somebody doing this kind of diet probably isn't going to be doing lots of cardio (and you shouldn't be according to the book, nor would you likely feel like it), your TDEE would probably be somewhere around 2500-2700 kcals, meaning a deficit of "only" like 1100-1400 kcals, not even three pounds of fat a week. Moreover, Lyle doesn't recommend that a category one dieter do this for more than a couple weeks straight before taking a refeed and a break at maintenance.

    In OP's case sticking with around a 150 g protein a day and a mixed diet with a deficit to support 2 lbs per week lost (so around 1000 kcal deficit) sounds much more pleasant and sustainable. And then cut that back as you get leaner. Heck, if I was 15% BF, I probably would not target more than a pound and a half a week (not for fear of losing muscle, just making it sustainable/minimize impact).

    Nothing against the psmf, it's just that it seems that the leaner you get, the less sense it make to do outside of very specialty situations, at least if you want to follow Lyle's recommendations. As a cat 1, you don't lose fat that much faster than 2 lbs per week unless you do something to really bump up TDEE, which IIRC Lyle's doesn't seem to think is a great idea.
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    Originally Posted by csb5731 View Post
    i'd say why the hell not?



    Exactly. Additionally, according to the book, the leaner you are the more protein you require (per pound of lbm). Idk what %bf you are op, but i imagine you are getting close to 15% or so at 6' 170 lbs, putting you in or soon to be in rfl "category 1". Lyle suggests 2 g protein per pound of lbm in that range of bf, so you are looking at close to 300 grams of protein a day. So 1200 calories in protein and say 100-200 kcals tagalong fats/carbs. So say 1300-1400 calories of mostly lean proteins. Not much fun.

    Somebody doing this kind of diet probably isn't going to be doing lots of cardio (and you shouldn't be according to the book, nor would you likely feel like it), your tdee would probably be somewhere around 2500-2700 kcals, meaning a deficit of "only" like 1100-1400 kcals, not even three pounds of fat a week. Moreover, lyle doesn't recommend that a category one dieter do this for more than a couple weeks straight before taking a refeed and a break at maintenance.

    In op's case sticking with around a 150 g protein a day and a mixed diet with a deficit to support 2 lbs per week lost (so around 1000 kcal deficit) sounds much more pleasant and sustainable. And then cut that back as you get leaner. Heck, if i was 15% bf, i probably would not target more than a pound and a half a week (not for fear of losing muscle, just making it sustainable/minimize impact).

    Nothing against the psmf, it's just that it seems that the leaner you get, the less sense it make to do outside of very specialty situations, at least if you want to follow lyle's recommendations. As a cat 1, you don't lose fat that much faster than 2 lbs per week unless you do something to really bump up tdee, which iirc lyle's doesn't seem to think is a great idea.
    this^^^ repped again>>>so much truth
    EDIT: Apparently I gotta spread some first
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    Registered User jtrain2323's Avatar
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    i still personally think people are a little too worried about losing muscle while on a severe cal deficit. With all the info out there that suggests the bodies chain of command in what it burns as energy first to last makes me wonder why people are so scared to cut at high deficits. Now I know I am in no way educated enough to make a killer argument but from what i have read(havent comprehended it all) it would seem that as long as you keep protein HIGH and lift HEAVY the amount of muscle you would lose is negligible at best. In some studies its even noted that the reccomended amount of protein of 1g per lb of bodyweight is probably even overstated. Seems now people are saying more and more that 150-160 grams of protein is fine for anybody not on CREATINE(not srs) Anyway just my 2 cents...csb5371 please enlighten me
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    Originally Posted by leaftors View Post
    Ive been cutting for a year on a 1000 calorie deficit. What do you think of a diet break where I eat at maintenance for 2 weeks.
    I take a break from training (I don't do any weights or cardio) every 8 weeks for 7 days. That's when I take a break from my cut as well and increase my calories. The first time I took my 7 day break I tried going to my maintenance (which is about 2100cal) and felt like crap (you may feel fine though), meaning full and bloated. So, the next time I took a 7 day break I only went up to 1800cal and felt better (not as full or bloated). Regardless on what mount of calories you want to go up to on your break, it's a good idea to give your mind and body a break from the training and diet. For me, every 8 weeks works. It's only 7 days and at the end of the 7 days, I am already anxious to get back to the weights and cut.

    Good luck!
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    Originally Posted by jtrain2323 View Post
    i still personally think people are a little too worried about losing muscle while on a severe cal deficit. With all the info out there that suggests the bodies chain of command in what it burns as energy first to last makes me wonder why people are so scared to cut at high deficits. Now I know I am in no way educated enough to make a killer argument but from what i have read(havent comprehended it all) it would seem that as long as you keep protein HIGH and lift HEAVY the amount of muscle you would lose is negligible at best. In some studies its even noted that the reccomended amount of protein of 1g per lb of bodyweight is probably even overstated. Seems now people are saying more and more that 150-160 grams of protein is fine for anybody not on CREATINE(not srs) Anyway just my 2 cents...csb5371 please enlighten me
    I think you are probably correct about people tending to be unrealistically paranoid about losing muscle, but realize that protein requirements, as Electricheadd said, are contextual: the amount of protein required to achieve maximal muscle preservation is dependent on the rest of your nutrition (and extent of deficit), training, the individuals level of leanness, genetics, lots of things.

    I don't know if I've ever lost muscle directly from dieting - by directly I mean in the sense of my body converting my muscles into glucose to meet acute energy requirements sort of deal, that might only happen as one gets really lean and fat just can't get mobilized fast enough to meet needs. But I have found myself much weaker and unable to lift even close to how I was lifting prior to cutting (the aforementioned refeeds are helpful in avoiding this), and if that goes on long enough, I think atrophy is inevitable. For people dieting for months, I can see that aspect being an issue. Some people can train harder than others at large deficits, though, and I think that while willpower is a factor, it's not necessarily the main one.
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