The New Christian Thread 2

[TEAMWORK]

Worry about yourself, Swamp Dog. Stop making it personal.

You're free to ignore my posts if they bother you.

edit -- I'd like to remind those getting upset that this is just an online forum, guys. It doesn't actually matter. Try to address the topics/arguments rather than the posters/individuals. Try to keep your emotions out of it.

And read this (it's short).
http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

[mainsqueeze530]

Worry about yourself, Swamp Dog. Stop making it personal.

You're free to ignore my posts if they bother you.

edit -- I'd like to remind those getting upset that this is just an online forum, guys. It doesn't actually matter. Try to address the topics/arguments rather than the posters/individuals. Try to keep your emotions out of it.

And read this (it's short).
http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

do you like to travel?

[Swamp Dog]

Worry about yourself, Swamp Dog. Stop making it personal.

You're free to ignore my posts if they bother you.

edit -- I'd like to remind those getting upset that this is just an online forum, guys. It doesn't actually matter. Try to address the topics/arguments rather than the posters/individuals. Try to keep your emotions out of it.

And read this (it's short).
http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

I had no intention of making it seem anything personal. I know it's the net, and you very well could be a professor of theology at a seminary.
If you are, you know that there are more effective ways to be heard and appreciated.

[Swamp Dog]

do you like to travel?

oh snap

[mainsqueeze530]

oh snap

it was an honest question.

I need ideas of places to travel, preferably in/near california. the climate in other areas seem to stress out my body.

[Swamp Dog]

it was an honest question.

I need ideas of places to travel, preferably in/near california. the climate in other areas seem to stress out my body.

where do you fish?

I went to Arizona last year and loved it. It's in my bones now.
Not sure if that is close enough, though.

[cman1787]

it was an honest question.

I need ideas of places to travel, preferably in/near california. the climate in other areas seem to stress out my body.

encinitas is nice, just north of san diego

[mainsqueeze530]

where do you fish?

delta, collins lake, clear lake, blue lake, small holes in natamos and sac, etc. I went to lake el salto in mexico last week and caught some huge largemouths.

encinitas is nice, just north of san diego

went there. was fun

[Swamp Dog]

delta, collins lake, clear lake, blue lake, small holes in natamos and sac, etc. I went to lake el salto in mexico last week and caught some huge largemouths.

that sounds awesome

[TEAMWORK]

it was an honest question.

I need ideas of places to travel, preferably in/near california. the climate in other areas seem to stress out my body.

PM me -- I'd be happy to make some recommendations all over Cali or elsewhere in the world.

It's currently 70* and sunny outside my window.

(How did you know I live in California? Are you a wizard?)

:-)

[Iceman1800]

Excuse me... come again?

Stay out of this thread. There are enough threads in the r/p section to discuss religion. This thread is for Christians to discuss their beliefs and since you have a different point of view, stay out. First and only warning.

[NeoSeminole]

In other words, the claim that a few elderly people built a wooden boat the size of a football stadium, managed to herd two of every kind of creature onboard (how'd they collect them from the other continents? How did they all fit onboard?), floated along while the entire earth was flooded to cover the tops of the highest mountains, then landed and repopulated the entire earth to the abundance we have today ... is an extraordinary claim. It's wild-ass nonsense and there is no evidence for it having happened whatsoever other than that someone wrote it down a long time ago.

I have no reason to believe such nonsense unless I see evidence for doing so. Any evidence would be a start.

Why do you believe such a ridiculous story?

what's to say that God didn't work a miracle?

[BuccoBruce]

Then you're rejecting a literal interpretation of Genesis, since that date comes from the Genealogy listed in it. So again, why do you accept a global flood based on a literal reading of Genesis, but not the literal chronology of the people listed in it?

Not exactly. This link explains it pretty well I think. http://questions.org/attq/shouldn’t-...te-of-4004-bc/

[ppself]

Guess i am in.

[justme7]

it was an honest question.

I need ideas of places to travel, preferably in/near california. the climate in other areas seem to stress out my body.

I just moved back to south Florida from Cali. If you like NorCal climates, I can't recommend Tahoe, Muir Woods, and Yosemite highly enough. I never made it out to Mammoth, but I hear it's breathtaking. Napa/Sonoma has a certain charm to it, as for the rest of the Bay Area, Stinson Beach/Muir Woods as mentioned for the North Bay or out to Point Reyes. For the East Bay, Berkeley and Emeryville are beautiful, and the Oakland Hills are nice, too. Out behind UC Berkeley is Tilden, which is a nice little park to enjoy. In the South Bay, there's ziplining through the redwood canopy out in Mount Hermon or beautiful seascapes down in Monterey/Santa Cruz. In the city (San Francisco), my favorite place was out towards the Legion of Honor Museum. Absolutely gorgeous. Baker Beach is alright, also. If you can surf, there's always Bolinas, too, but be careful!

[MuscleXtreme]

it was an honest question.

I need ideas of places to travel, preferably in/near california. the climate in other areas seem to stress out my body.

I live here in Cali. Good place to visit but definitely not a good place to live. Where abouts are you trying to go in Cali, or should I say what are you trying to do?

[Harbinger]

Guess i am in.

Awesome, the more alternate views the better. Even if they're wrong.

[MuscleXtreme]

Sooooo in.gif on this. Still catching up, but as soon as I'm done crafting a response to the other things I wanted to address so far, I'll add this into the mix as well.

But without going into extensive detail now, my basic answer will be that this was a cultural admonition by Paul to a very specific group of people in a specific location at a specific time with a specific reason, not a meta-rule for all people of all times and ages. Will support each part of this statement in the coming response.

Bumping this up for Justme7. Didn't want you to forget about it, because I'm interested in how you understand this chapter.

[justme7]

^^good call! Thanks. Just gettin in from Wed night church and headed right back out. Will finish up my response as soon as I get back from the gym around 12:30 am (9:30 your time).

Awesome, the more alternate views the better. Even if they're wrong.

You, sir, are my favorite resident atheist troll. I hope you never stop posting (srs).

As a tangential aside, Meatros is my favorite resident atheist nontroll.

[mainsqueeze530]

I live here in Cali. Good place to visit but definitely not a good place to live. Where abouts are you trying to go in Cali, or should I say what are you trying to do?

I live in Cali. and I'm not sure, I'm just looking for something new I guess.

I just moved back to south Florida from Cali. If you like NorCal climates, I can't recommend Tahoe, Muir Woods, and Yosemite highly enough. I never made it out to Mammoth, but I hear it's breathtaking. Napa/Sonoma has a certain charm to it, as for the rest of the Bay Area, Stinson Beach/Muir Woods as mentioned for the North Bay or out to Point Reyes. For the East Bay, Berkeley and Emeryville are beautiful, and the Oakland Hills are nice, too. Out behind UC Berkeley is Tilden, which is a nice little park to enjoy. In the South Bay, there's ziplining through the redwood canopy out in Mount Hermon or beautiful seascapes down in Monterey/Santa Cruz. In the city (San Francisco), my favorite place was out towards the Legion of Honor Museum. Absolutely gorgeous. Baker Beach is alright, also. If you can surf, there's always Bolinas, too, but be careful!

I went to every place you suggested haha. I go to tahoe or SF every weekend, always have a great time there. I went to UCB, I've been to tilden far too many times, almost sick of it... I do want to go out and ride up to mammoth or yosemite again. not sure what went through my mind when I gave away my gsxr1k, I miss my baby!! guess I'll have to snatch it back for a ride.

[Harbinger]

You, sir, are my favorite resident atheist troll. I hope you never stop posting (srs).

I'm not a troll, I'm comedic relief.

[MuscleXtreme]

^^good call! Thanks. Just gettin in from Wed night church and headed right back out. Will finish up my response as soon as I get back from the gym around 12:30 am (9:30 your time).



You, sir, are my favorite resident atheist troll. I hope you never stop posting (srs).

As a tangential aside, Meatros is my favorite resident atheist nontroll.

Wish I had a gym that stayed open that late. All the gyms around here close at 9, then 8 on weekends.

I live in Cali. and I'm not sure, I'm just looking for something new I guess.



I went to every place you suggested haha. I go to tahoe or SF every weekend, always have a great time there. I went to UCB, I've been to tilden far too many times, almost sick of it... I do want to go out and ride up to mammoth or yosemite again. not sure what went through my mind when I gave away my gsxr1k, I miss my baby!! guess I'll have to snatch it back for a ride.

Gotcha. If you're in So. Cal you can always try hiking out in the San Gabriels. Los Angeles county beaches suck, pretty much have to go north to Malibu or south into OC to get some good beaches.

Other than that, there's a ton of museums to check out in Los Angeles :shrug:

[Indivdude]

I live in Cali. and I'm not sure, I'm just looking for something new I guess.



I went to every place you suggested haha. I go to tahoe or SF every weekend, always have a great time there. I went to UCB, I've been to tilden far too many times, almost sick of it... I do want to go out and ride up to mammoth or yosemite again. not sure what went through my mind when I gave away my gsxr1k, I miss my baby!! guess I'll have to snatch it back for a ride.

If you had a motorcycle did you also have a dirt bike? That would be fun. There's a good spot I'm told by my brother outside of Wheatland. Its a lot of open area there so it makes sense.

[justme7]

I live in Cali. and I'm not sure, I'm just looking for something new I guess.

I went to every place you suggested haha. I go to tahoe or SF every weekend, always have a great time there. I went to UCB, I've been to tilden far too many times, almost sick of it... I do want to go out and ride up to mammoth or yosemite again. not sure what went through my mind when I gave away my gsxr1k, I miss my baby!! guess I'll have to snatch it back for a ride.

mirin bike! i'm on a zx6r. started on a 636 then upgraded year and mileage to an 08 zx6r se, but by that point they'd stopped making the 636cc (though now that they're back again, i'm eyeing them) what was the litrebike like? dat power! hnnnng.

and what church did you attend when you went to ucb? and what years? i lived in mill valley for 3 years then moved to emeryville/berkeley until nov '12.

tilden is easy to get tired of quickly... but it's got some nice twisties out there for the bike stinson even more so, as i'm sure you well know.

I'm not a troll, I'm comedic relief.

my apologies, i stand corrected i'll rephrase: you're my favorite resident atheist comedic relief itt.

Wish I had a gym that stayed open that late. All the gyms around here close at 9, then 8 on weekends.

Gotcha. If you're in So. Cal you can always try hiking out in the San Gabriels. Los Angeles county beaches suck, pretty much have to go north to Malibu or south into OC to get some good beaches.

Other than that, there's a ton of museums to check out in Los Angeles :shrug:

no gyms in LA past 9? i know the 8 on the weekends feel feelsbadman.jpg.

+1 vote for malibu and san diego/la jolla.

Agreed.

While I'll readily admit, I'm nowhere near having the understanding of the bible as a theologian, or have the educational background of that of a philosopher. I'm just a simple child of God, who is just trying to understand his word as best as possible.

To carry on with this. I've been reading through Corinthians and I came across another topic that Paul brought up - the subject of women wearing head coverings.

1 Corinthians 11:2-16

What does this mean? Does this mean that women should be covering their head? Does this mean that a woman's head covering is her hair? When I initially was reading through the chapter, I took this to mean a woman's hair.

What are you guy's take on this?

the head covering can refer to either hair or a covering in the alternative. it seems from the original greek that the intention was hair, but that if the hair had been cut short or shaved, that a covering of some sort of material could be used in its place (Only in 1 Cor. 11:15 does Paul mention any kind of garment [Greek: peribolaion] and even there he stated that the woman’s hair took the place of it.)

to borrow from wayne grudem:

No matter what people think about requiring head coverings for women today, all interpreters agree that head covering was a symbol for something else, and that Paul was concerned about it because of what that symbol meant. People have thought that head covering for women in the first century was a symbol of (a) a woman being in submission to her husband (or perhaps to the elders of the church), (b) being a woman rather than a man, (c) being a wife rather than an unmarried woman, or (d) having authority to pray and prophesy publicly in the church. There may be other explanations of the symbolism, but everyone agrees that Paul's concern is not to protect women from catching a cold or getting a sunburn on their head. Rather, he is concerned because of what wearing a head covering symbolized to people in Corinth.

So we should ask whether wearing a head covering symbolizes any of these things today. At least in twenty-first-century America, it symbolizes none of these things! When people see a woman wearing a hat, whether in church or outside of church, they don't immediately think,
• "Oh, I now know that woman is subject to her husband, because I see she is wearing a hat," or
• "Oh, I now realize that person is a woman and not a man, because she is wearing a hat," or
• "Oh, I now know that woman is married, not single, because she is wearing a hat," or
• "Oh, I now realize that woman has authority to pray and prophesy in the church, because she is wearing a hat."

Whatever we think a head covering symbolized in first-century Corinth, it does not symbolize the same thing today. And that means if Paul's concern was over what a headcovering symbolized, then he would not want women to wear a head covering in a situation where a head covering did not carry the same symbolic meaning. Therefore if we cannot be sure what the head coverings symbolized for women in the first century (for interpreters differ on this), the very fact that it does not symbolize much of anything to people today, even to Christians, is a strong argument that Paul would not have wanted us to follow it as sort of a meaningless symbol.

this is further substantiated when most scholars find that verse 16 is referring to social custom (cf. John 18:39). the etymology of the word means “common manner” or “common practice," which is different from paradosis meaning that which is passed down whether from God or man.

the literal translation of verse 6, which to me, is the crux of the passage when we're looking at the issue of head covering, says: "For if a woman is not covered, also being cropped: and if it is a shame to a woman to be cropped or shaven, let her be covered."

"cropped" here means cut short. the key, though, is the conditional statement: "if it is a shame to a woman..., then let her be covered." since some places and eras have accepted short hair perfectly fine, this verse is clearly not a direct mandate to be observed by all believers in all locales in all times. it was written with a specific people in mind--the believers in corinth--whose gentile counterparts had a social stigma around women with shaved/short hair (namely, it was a symbol of being a prostitute at that time in that specific culture), so paul was asking the believing women to be set apart from the nonbelievers by not identifying themselves with a symbol that brought shame to them (ie being a prostitute) in their specific cultural context as well as to differentiate themselves and their beliefs from the priestesses and women used in pagan cults centered on orgiastic worship.

[MuscleXtreme]

mirin bike! i'm on a zx6r. started on a 636 then upgraded year and mileage to an 08 zx6r se, but by that point they'd stopped making the 636cc (though now that they're back again, i'm eyeing them) what was the litrebike like? dat power! hnnnng.

and what church did you attend when you went to ucb? and what years? i lived in mill valley for 3 years then moved to emeryville/berkeley until nov '12.

tilden is easy to get tired of quickly... but it's got some nice twisties out there for the bike stinson even more so, as i'm sure you well know.



my apologies, i stand corrected i'll rephrase: you're my favorite resident atheist comedic relief itt.



no gyms in LA past 9? i know the 8 on the weekends feel feelsbadman.jpg.

+1 vote for malibu and san diego/la jolla.



the head covering can refer to either hair or a covering in the alternative. it seems from the original greek that the intention was hair, but that if the hair had been cut short or shaved, that a covering of some sort of material could be used in its place (Only in 1 Cor. 11:15 does Paul mention any kind of garment [Greek: peribolaion] and even there he stated that the woman’s hair took the place of it.)

to borrow from wayne grudem:


this is further substantiated when most scholars find that verse 16 is referring to social custom (cf. John 18:39). the etymology of the word means “common manner” or “common practice," which is different from paradosis meaning that which is passed down whether from God or man.

the literal translation of verse 6, which to me, is the crux of the passage when we're looking at the issue of head covering, says: "For if a woman is not covered, also being cropped: and if it is a shame to a woman to be cropped or shaven, let her be covered."

"cropped" here means cut short. the key, though, is the conditional statement: "if it is a shame to a woman..., then let her be covered." since some places and eras have accepted short hair perfectly fine, this verse is clearly not a direct mandate to be observed by all believers in all locales in all times. it was written with a specific people in mind--the believers in corinth--whose gentile counterparts had a social stigma around women with shaved/short hair (namely, it was a symbol of being a prostitute at that time in that specific culture), so paul was asking the believing women to be set apart from the nonbelievers by not identifying themselves with a symbol that brought shame to them (ie being a prostitute) in their specific cultural context as well as to differentiate themselves and their beliefs from the priestesses and women used in pagan cults centered on orgiastic worship.

Interesting, that makes a lot of sense.


This is where I wish I had knowledge of greek/latin so that I would be able to translate literal meanings from original texts.

Just to reiterate, from what I understood of the passage is that the head covering applied more directly to the women of Corinth to differentiate themselves from the prostitutes and pagans. The culture of Corinth looked down upon women with no hair/short hair so in order to have more general acceptance they needed a covering or longer hair.

In cultures where there is not a negative stigma attached to women without hair or short hair then head covering is not needed.

[Purge]

Wanted to give a heads-up about the upcoming David Jeremiah rally in Lowell:

http://www.davidjeremiah.org/site/ra...spx?location=4

One of my favorite preachers.

[cross-trainer]

Its nice to be back.

[justme7]

Interesting, that makes a lot of sense.


This is where I wish I had knowledge of greek/latin so that I would be able to translate literal meanings from original texts.

Just to reiterate, from what I understood of the passage is that the head covering applied more directly to the women of Corinth to differentiate themselves from the prostitutes and pagans. The culture of Corinth looked down upon women with no hair/short hair so in order to have more general acceptance they needed a covering or longer hair.

In cultures where there is not a negative stigma attached to women without hair or short hair then head covering is not needed.

That's how I understand it, but I'm willing to be wrong if I find a more compelling explanation.

Its nice to be back.

Welcome back, jf1! Why the trip to band camp?

[ppself]

Time for church.

[dailob]

general question for you guys, mainly small churches (300 and below i guess? lol), not mega churches:

have you seen a decline in your congregational numbers? either to other churches or just walking from the faith entirely?